Is Eli Apple The Starting CB?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-03-2022, 09:28 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Many of these metrics are volume statistics so I am going to add some efficiency/per attempt metrics...

18th in passer rating
12th in EPA per pass attempt
16th in yards per carry
15th in EPA per rush attempt
9th in overall EPA per play

They were an okay defense that really ramped it up in the playoffs. They also dealt with minimal injuries.

Yes, middle of the pack Defense besides stopping the run where they were top 5. They should only improve with guys coming
back and a good Draft. Ossai and ADG both have me pumped, think both of these guys have All Pro potential. ADG was just raw
coming out of a small college, the pro game started to slow down for him last season right before the injury.

As you know, Ossai really excites me, great pass rushing skills, takes great angles against the run and can get lots of TFL...

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-03-2022, 02:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, middle of the pack Defense besides stopping the run where they were top 5. They should only improve with guys coming
back and a good Draft. Ossai and ADG both have me pumped, think both of these guys have All Pro potential. ADG was just raw
coming out of a small college, the pro game started to slow down for him last season right before the injury.

As you know, Ossai really excites me, great pass rushing skills, takes great angles against the run and can get lots of TFL...

Yes sir, Ossai is one I'm very anxious to see this season. Granted all we've seen of him is preseason but man did he shine.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-03-2022, 02:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The rushing Defense was pretty great though especially compared to the last decade or so when teams just ran all over us.

The Defense was great in the Playoffs and in the Superbowl.

Oh yeah, they certainly were stout against the run and stepped it up in the playoffs. I just find it amusing that the perception is that Lou and the D were great in 2021 when it's objectively not true and they were arguably a worse sum than their parts should have produced. 

Winning makes that orange kool aid real tasty though. Lol

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-03-2022, 02:37 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yes sir, Ossai is one I'm very anxious to see this season. Granted all we've seen of him is preseason but man did he shine.

Still can't believe he fell out of the 2nd round to us.

Same with Tee Higgins the year before falling out of the first. Never expected either to happen. Both were 2 of my favorite players
in their entire Drafts. Ossai has great hands and this combined with how he takes angles are 2 awesome traits put into one Defensive
player. He might not pile up the sacks like Hendrickson but he will get Tackles for Loss in the run game which are almost as good.

Adding this guy to an already top 5 rushing Defense makes me giddy.

(04-03-2022, 02:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh yeah, they certainly were stout against the run and stepped it up in the playoffs. I just find it amusing that the perception is that Lou and the D were great in 2021 when it's objectively not true and they were arguably a worse sum than their parts should have produced. 

Winning makes that orange kool aid real tasty though. Lol

All true.

Made me think they can be a great D under Lou in 2022 though. That was impressive in the Playoffs and even in the Superbowl
against a high powered Rams Offense. Still had a chance to win even with the Kupp TD beating Apple. Damn OL let us down.

[casear2727]

(04-03-2022, 02:48 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh yeah, they certainly were stout against the run and stepped it up in the playoffs. I just find it amusing that the perception is that Lou and the D were great in 2021 when it's objectively not true and they were arguably a worse sum than their parts should have produced. 

Winning makes that orange kool aid real tasty though. Lol

Not kool aid whatsoever... the literalism by you is a bit much, as if only you have an idea of what a "great" defense is and the rest of us are simply fanboys. 

The comment was made relative to play in previous seasons and how well the D performed in the playoffs, especially with halftime adjustments.  I was not comparing them to the 86 Bears.  It was an attempt at being somewhat positive prior to totally shitting on Lou for the SB 4th qtr decisions.  

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-03-2022, 04:42 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Not kool aid whatsoever... the literalism by you is a bit much, as if only you have an idea of what a "great" defense is and the rest of us are simply fanboys. 

The comment was made relative to play in previous seasons and how well the D performed in the playoffs, especially with halftime adjustments.  I was not comparing them to the 86 Bears.  It was an attempt at being somewhat positive prior to totally shitting on Lou for the SB 4th qtr decisions.  

ummm 85 Bears

[casear2727]

(04-03-2022, 04:55 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: ummm 85 Bears

The 86 Bears actually gave up less yards and points than 85....

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-03-2022, 04:57 PM)casear2727 Wrote: The 86 Bears actually gave up less yards and points than 85....

Really ? Didn't know that. It was a hell of a defense both years then haha.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(04-03-2022, 04:42 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Not kool aid whatsoever... the literalism by you is a bit much, as if only you have an idea of what a "great" defense is and the rest of us are simply fanboys. 

The comment was made relative to play in previous seasons and how well the D performed in the playoffs, especially with halftime adjustments.  I was not comparing them to the 86 Bears.  It was an attempt at being somewhat positive prior to totally shitting on Lou for the SB 4th qtr decisions.  

Lol. Okay, Casear.

[plantmanky]

(03-31-2022, 10:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I disagree. You're just in a bad spot here. You're on the one yard line and you come out in heavy personnel. How are you changing this up? 



Everyone has a man. There is no one to double. Everyone on that line is crashing in. Everyone not on the line has a man. If you take bodies out of the box, they run the ball. Keep in mind, they only need a yard and it is 2nd down. Cincinnati is just in a tough position here and need their players to make a play. It didn't happen. 

You have 7 on Defense vs 6 on the Offensive Line, the SAM should spy to play the ball for pass, a run isnt coming that way and he cant help on a run up the middle. 

[plantmanky]

(04-01-2022, 02:22 AM)Tony Wrote: Ya and if he jumped the route and Stafford went over the top of Apple, you would ***** about that too.. It was a perfect throw, and Apple had good position.. Kupp makes this play on any DB right there...

But apple does nothing, absolutely nothing, as soon as Kupp breaks hes beat, so he should be playing in front of the WR for the ball period.  If its over the top then so be it, Kupp has 4 inches on him anyways. You dont get beat leaving a guy wide open and doing nothing. 

[KillerGoose]

(04-04-2022, 03:41 PM)plantmanky Wrote: You have 7 on Defense vs 6 on the Offensive Line, the SAM should spy to play the ball for pass, a run isnt coming that way and he cant help on a run up the middle. 

That doesn't achieve what you're wanting, though. You're arguing that Kupp should be doubled. I'm asking what are you going to do to achieve that? If your answer is take the SAM and have him play some kind of RAT, then that doesn't double Cooper. That's what I am getting at here. You also have no idea of knowing if a run is coming that way or not, which is another issue. If you do this and the ball does come that way, then we end up in the same conversation - "The coaches just made a bad call man. How do you give up the edge on goal-to-go in the Super Bowl?!" On top of this, you don't just take away a player's run responsibility. These guys all have run fits in this call, so we can't just say "you're playing the pass here". He will still have a responsibility to read what is going on and react from there. 

The play call was a standard call for GTG. You count on your players to make plays and Apple got beat. They loaded up the box in the event that the Rams decided to run and left the receivers 1 v. 1. Teams run significantly more than they pass at the one yard line, and this trend also follows the Rams. 

[fredtoast]

When an NFL team has multiple downs to gain 1 yard it is almost impossible to stop them.

There are just too many options to cover when a team can run or pass.

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 11:30 AM)Emeritus Wrote:

I'm not sure he's the starter but this is a team that has a belief in his capabilities. This guy is so polarizing because he has just as many haters as fans. Its interesting to me because if your not going to trade up for a guy or grab a FA then your banking on a player on the current roster to be the starter imo. The class although talented has a starter ready cliff but its certainly deep with potential. Maybe another veteran is the safest path to at least securing the position for a camp battle. Time will tell but I can see it being a topic of discussion moving forward especially after the draft. Thoughts?

Fans want to replace a guy when he gave up some plays against a guy that was in discussion for NFL MVP.  Cooper Kupp roasted EVERYONE.  Does anyone here think the Rams are going to say "Is Jalen Ramsey our starter?" because BOTH Chase and Higgins roasted him in the Super Bowl.

The bottom line is Eli played VERY solid CB down the stretch for the Bengals, and was the one that tipped the pass that Logan Wilson picked off to help send the Bengals to the AFC title game.  Is he perfect?  Heck, no.  And I hate his false bravado on social media...just be a pro.  That notwithstanding, he was a very solid CB and could be better in year 2 in the system with potential improvements on the pass rush.  

The Bengals do, however, need to address DEPTH at CB in a big way.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 11:51 AM)Emeritus Wrote:
I didn't see it but one things for sure and two is for certain. There are just as many that think that the tackle against KC earns that slot as the Kupp SB play doesn't. Actually to me he left five interceptions on the field and if he completes those plays then its another discussion.

Five INTs?  Well, at least you could say he was in position to make those INTs, and I don't believe any of them turned in to receptions?

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 12:56 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: If he is, he's the weakest starter of the 22 and LG isn't filled yet. He was a backup plan last year, I don't see it being any different this year. CB in round 1 or 2.

For the season, Eli was ranked the 71st overall CB by PFF (spare me the PFF hate...it is just a frame of reference, and it seems to be a lot more accurate grading CBs than linemen).  That is with 32 teams having 3 starting CBs on average.  

What that number doesn't show is how he improved throughout the season.  He had a rough first five games, but then went on a streak where his overall grade was consistently in the 70s and his coverage grade was in the high 70s and even the 80s a couple times.  Most importantly, he showed consistency in his performance.  

He tapered off a little bit in the playoffs (MUCH tougher competition), but his PFF rankings in that late part of the season were very similar to what Jalen Ramsey was scoring, and Ramsey is the #1 overall CB according to PFF.

Give Apple a second year, and his first full offseason as the entrenched starter and I think he will continue to show performances like he did the second half of the season, which would be just fine and almost unheard of from a rookie starter, even a high first round pick.  

Fred had an excellent analogy with Reggie Nelson.  Jags fans HATED that he was such a high pick and was not a great player for them, but came to Cincy cheap and his career was resurrected.  Coaching matters and so does playing in your natural position and best scheme for your talents.  I am 100% behind Apple, but I want the Bengals to sign one more veteran (Flowers?) and draft one in the first couple rounds for depth.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 01:17 PM)schroomytunes Wrote: As of right now I gotta believe he is, but I think the Bengals like most of you will be drafting at least 2 this year, we need a guy to groom behind Apple, and lets face it he really wasn't terrible the 2nd half of the year. I could live with this type of production from our CB depth chart:


1) Awozie
2) Hilton-slot
3) Apple
4) Roger McCreary-Auburn 1st rd pick
5) Jalen Davis
6) Tre Flowers- re-signed after draft.

With this CB room 100%.  I see a lot of similarities with McCreary as fellow Auburn first rounder, Carlton Davis.  I believe the Bengals like him as well.  Could get drafted a lot higher than is being projected, though, but I would be VERY happy with this.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 01:28 PM)Synric Wrote: Eli Apple has mostly been an ok corner during his career but nowhere close to great.... His personality coupled with him being a top 10 draft pick makes his play look worse that it really is... Apple's biggest weakness is he misses a very high percentage of tackles in the open field which leads to big plays. 

This is another example of the season taken as a whole over the trend.   The last five games, Apple's tackling rating was never below a 75.  That is BETTER than Jalen Ramsey over the same time frame.  He did have some MAJOR whiffs early in the season, but how he progressed over a 17 game season is impressive.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 02:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: For now Eli is. This Draft is really deep at Corner and I think we add the future there and they don't have to start right away 
cause of Awuzie and Apple. Happy Eli finally started gaining a bit of consistency as a player last year under Lou. I don't care 
for his talk off the field but no one can deny his talent. There are many reasons why he was a first round pick.

Dead on, and although this is a good (not great) draft for CBs, it is a staggering statistic of how few CBs drafted past day ONE make it to high heights in the NFL.  I would not be surprised at all if they draft a CB and develop him behind Apple.  Great position to be in and not have to make him a starter from day 1.

As I have been saying on this thread...there is a trend that Apple is ascending and in year 2 of the system with even more pass rush, Fred is right that Apple could be the next Reggie Nelson.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(03-29-2022, 02:57 PM)plantmanky Wrote: IDK about Apple.  He cost the Bengals the Super Bowl and was so lost on that play.  Looked like a special ed kid chasing a balloon on the field.

A glaring example of why we need negative rep... Heartless comment and horribly inaccurate. 

WHOOSH, WHOOSH, WHOOSH....