Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[007BengalsFan]

(04-20-2022, 12:35 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: wow, you dont learn do you? We discussed this. He was good all year, got hurt, and struggled against the 2 best DT's in the league against Tennessee and LA

but I suppose this will just bounce off your skull AGAIN

The injury excuse is nonsense.  Spain simply struggled against better defenses in post season when it mattered most and he had to play against better talent.  Yes he had to face Tennessee and LA in the post season.  Thats football.   Do you not think there is a chance we wont play either Tennessee, LA or some other great defense next season when the Bengals make it to the playoffs?    Having to play against good defenses shouldnt be an excuse for failing to get the job done.  Some of our fans have made excuses for the poor Oline play for years when it should be clear the Oline has been and continues to be a problem.  Its seems like just more excuses.  

[007BengalsFan]

(04-20-2022, 04:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What planet did you just come from where Bengal fans said the O-line was okay?

We have had fans on this board for most the season trying to claim the Oline was okay.  We have also had numerous fans claiming the line wasnt bad, that it was actually Burrow's fault for most of those sacks because he held on to the ball too long even when statistically Burrow gets rid of the ball quicker than most NFL QBs.  Please tell me you havent forgotten these discussions

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 12:33 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The injury excuse is nonsense.  Spain simply struggled against better defenses in post season when it mattered most and he had to play against better talent.  Yes he had to face Tennessee and LA in the post season.  Thats football.   Do you not think there is a chance we wont play either Tennessee, LA or some other great defense next season when the Bengals make it to the playoffs?    Having to play against good defenses shouldnt be an excuse for failing to get the job done.  Some of our fans have made excuses for the poor Oline play for years when it should be clear the Oline has been and continues to be a problem.  Its seems like just more excuses.  

I’ve been one of the most critical on this board about the o-line

Spain was good all year, played good against the Raiders, played well against KC, and KC has one of the best dt’s in the league

You’re trashing Spain because, he’s good, but not good enough to beat the 2 best d-tackles in the NFL?

seriously, take a vitamin. If Spain had the skill to handle Donald and the Tennessee guy, he’d be an all pro

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2022, 12:41 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: We have had fans on this board for most the season trying to claim the Oline was okay.  We have also had numerous fans claiming the line wasnt bad, that it was actually Burrow's fault for most of those sacks because he held on to the ball too long even when statistically Burrow gets rid of the ball quicker than most NFL QBs.  Please tell me you havent forgotten these discussions

I was in those discussions.  No fans were saying our o-line was fine.  We were all crying about the short yardage problems and the high numbver of sacks.

Some fans like myself did point out that the o-line in 2021 was better than the o-line in 2020, but some refused to acknowledge it.  And it is also true that a lot of the sacks were due to Burrow holding onto the ball too long.  Average release time does not mean the QB gets it out by that time every single pass attempt. 

I 100% guarantee that you won't be able to find a quite of a member saying the o-line was "fine".

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 12:48 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I 100% guarantee that you won't be able to find a quite of a member saying the o-line was "fine".

Eh... Maybe just Nate

[007BengalsFan]

(04-20-2022, 04:32 PM)Joelist Wrote: Part of this is the myth that the Bengals were uninjured last season. What happened was that the injuries took a while to kick in but they were there and concentrated on DL and OL.

On OL remember we lost Reiff and then in quick succession we had injuries to Spain, Adeniji and Carman. Add in the earlier injury to D'Ante Smith and one sees why we had to go into postseason with BOTH Guards playing hurt.

This O-line gave up a record 55 sacks before the playoffs even started.  They were bad from the beginning of the season to the end and they were giving up a bunch of sacks when they were healthy.  I guess now the excuse is going to be they played so poorly because they were injured?  Sorry but I disagree.  They were just bad

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-21-2022, 12:55 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: This O-line gave up a record 55 sacks before the playoffs even started.  They were bad from the beginning of the season to the end and they were giving up a bunch of sacks when they were healthy.  I guess now the excuse is going to be they played so poorly because they were injured?  Sorry but I disagree.  They were just bad

They had their ups and downs for sure, more downs than ups, but got a little better as the season went along, people got dinged and we just didn't have good quality depth. One guy, can't handle all of the best DT's in the league with out getting some help. 

After what we just did during this past FA period, i'm not sure why people still crying over spilt milk. Last season is over, currently we have upgraded quite significantly and have much higher expectations.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-21-2022, 12:55 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: This O-line gave up a record 55 sacks before the playoffs even started.  They were bad from the beginning of the season to the end and they were giving up a bunch of sacks when they were healthy.  I guess now the excuse is going to be they played so poorly because they were injured?  Sorry but I disagree.  They were just bad

The oline WAS fine, until Reiff went down (and even then, Reiff wasn't a world beater and we could've absolutely improved). Him going down forced Prince into the lineup, who wasn't good at all and made Adeniji EVEN WORSE, which then caused our line to be in shambles and fall apart. That exposed the line as being passable if the starters were healthy, but having absolutely 0 depth and having to rely on backups was a recipe for failure (and we STILL almost overcame it).

Furthermore, do you know what the word, "record," means? 'cause 55 isn't even in the realm of the sack record for oline.

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 09:36 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The oline WAS fine, until Reiff went down

Not really, no. It was still a poor offensive line

[*ochocincos*]

(04-21-2022, 09:53 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Not really, no. It was still a poor offensive line

Agreed.
RG was a dumpster fire all year.
Hopkins was not good the first half of the season, but he came along in late Nov.

Spain was OL1 or OL2 on the team for a majority of the year, along with Jonah Williams.

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2022, 09:36 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: The oline WAS fine, until Reiff went down 

I can't find the "sack rate" broken down by games, but through the 10 games where Reiff was healthy we gave up the 7th most sacks despite being 24th in pass attempts, so it could not have been very good.  The offense was also 15th in yards, 26th in first downs, and 26th in yards per carry.

We were just lucky we had one of the best set of skill players in the entire league.  The O-line was pretty bad even before Reiff was injured.

[*Go Cards*]

(04-21-2022, 12:44 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: I’ve been one of the most critical on this board about the o-line

Spain was good all year, played good against the Raiders, played well against KC, and KC has one of the best dt’s in the league

You’re trashing Spain because, he’s good, but not good enough to beat the 2 best d-tackles in the NFL?

seriously, take a vitamin. If Spain had the skill to handle Donald and the Tennessee guy, he’d be an all pro

Just going by memory here so may be wrong, but in one of those games Spain was blown by for a quick sack on Burrow on the very first offensive play  the Bengals had it seems. Not even sure he touched the guy. 

Not a Spain fan at all and thought Jonah and Reiff were the only decent players on the O-line last season. If Reiff was healthy would much rather have him back and move him to LG than bringing back Spain.  

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 10:20 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Just going by memory here so may be wrong, but in one of those games Spain was blown by for a quick sack on Burrow on the very first offensive play  the Bengals had it seems. Not even sure he touched the guy. 

Not a Spain fan at all and thought Jonah and Reiff were the only decent players on the O-line last season. If Reiff was healthy would much rather have him back and move him to LG than bringing back Spain.  

That was prob against KC. Against one of the best DT’s in the league

You say Reiff is better, but he wasn’t at all.

The Spain haters are as irrational as the Apple haters. Ignoring good play all year because of one or 2 plays, or a couple games against elite talent. Get the hell out

[KillerGoose]

(04-21-2022, 10:20 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Just going by memory here so may be wrong, but in one of those games Spain was blown by for a quick sack on Burrow on the very first offensive play  the Bengals had it seems. Not even sure he touched the guy. 

Not a Spain fan at all and thought Jonah and Reiff were the only decent players on the O-line last season. If Reiff was healthy would much rather have him back and move him to LG than bringing back Spain.  

Your memory is incorrect. Spain gave up zero sacks between both games against KC. The play you are thinking about is in the first game against KC where Cincinnati ran a naked bootleg and Jones didn't bite, sacking Burrow immediately.. That was the play design and a good play by Jones. No one was credited with a sack allowed there. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-21-2022, 11:07 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: That was prob against KC. Against one of the best DT’s in the league

You say Reiff is better, but he wasn’t at all.

The Spain haters are as irrational as the Apple haters. Ignoring good play all year because of one or 2 plays, or a couple games against elite talent. Get the hell out

Yep Reiff played 422 pass blocking snaps across 12 games and allowed 4 sacks.
0.00948 sacks per pass blocking snap.

Spain played 611 pass blocking snaps in the regular season across 16 games and allowed 5 sacks.
0.00818 sacks per pass blocking snap.

So on a sacks-per-snap basis, Reiff allowed more than Spain did.

I personally wouldn't think Reiff would be better than Spain at LG. LG is Spain's natural position and he's played for many years. Reiff hasn't really ever started a game at LG in the NFL.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 12:33 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The injury excuse is nonsense.  Spain simply struggled against better defenses in post season when it mattered most and he had to play against better talent.  Yes he had to face Tennessee and LA in the post season.  Thats football.   Do you not think there is a chance we wont play either Tennessee, LA or some other great defense next season when the Bengals make it to the playoffs?    Having to play against good defenses shouldnt be an excuse for failing to get the job done.  Some of our fans have made excuses for the poor Oline play for years when it should be clear the Oline has been and continues to be a problem.  Its seems like just more excuses.  

Bullshit. Spain played good all year until he got hurt late in the season and it carried on through the Playoffs where he had to 
play the best DT's while he was hurt. Sure I hated his effort on the last play of the SB where Donald easily beat him and if you 
don't want him back for that poor effort I can understand. But to act like being injured isn't a good excuse is absurd.

Spain was our best O-lineman besides maybe Jonah when he was healthy.

(04-21-2022, 12:52 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Eh... Maybe just Nate

Nope, I never said the OL was just fine. Was hating Hopkins, Adeniji's play all season. Adeniji and Spain were terrible in the 
postseason. Hop actually started to play okay once he got over his injury but it was still poor play, same with Prince who is a 
backup at best. 

Reiff was okay I guess until he got injured, but still it was pretty terrible for most of the year in both pass protection and run 
blocking. But a healthy Spain pushing Carman at LG would only be a good thing for our entire OL. Still all for bringing in JC 
Tretter too and playing Karras at LG if Carman's injury isn't over with.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-21-2022, 09:53 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Not really, no. It was still a poor offensive line

(04-21-2022, 10:14 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I can't find the "sack rate" broken down by games, but through the 10 games where Reiff was healthy we gave up the 7th most sacks despite being 24th in pass attempts, so it could not have been very good.  The offense was also 15th in yards, 26th in first downs, and 26th in yards per carry.

We were just lucky we had one of the best set of skill players in the entire league.  The O-line was pretty bad even before Reiff was injured.

I never said good, I said, "fine," ie: it was passable-enough for our offense to run.

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 01:50 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I never said good, I said, "fine," ie: it was passable-enough for our offense to run.

back track alert

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 01:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: back track alert

You need to apologize to the Nate... 

[Joelist]

The story of our pass blocking last season is pretty convoluted to be sure.

On the good side we didn't have the plague of rushers coming in unblocked like we did in 2020 and we did have games where the line looked competent. Reiff was a definite improvement over Hart and Spain an enormous improvement over Jordan.

On the other side, the sack count did go up. for one thing we had constant issues with backs and TEs missing their blocking assignments (it was interesting that those plays late in the season and postseason mostly were not called anymore) and yes Burrow by his own statement was holding the ball too long for a while there. Depending on your stat source the backs and TEs gave up 8 sacks and Burrow himself is usually assigned 10-12.

On the line itself things went up and down until Reiff got hurt - that was when the implosion started. Adeniji was already terrible (9 sacks in his limited time including 6 in postseason) and Prince was just overmatched. Add in both Carman and Spain being injured as well as D'Ante Smith losing tons of development time to injury and it was a recipe for disaster.

Things like this are why the Bengals got right out there in Free Agency and landed Cappa and Karras and jumped on Collins when he came open - we have completely retooled the right side of the line.