Why the **** is Jessie Bates not signed yet?

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2022, 01:08 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote: Thank you very much for access.   Obviously a Broncos fan here HOWEVER, I would be remiss if I didn't say that the Bengals are my daughters #1 NFL team.

Two? off-seasons ago I lobbied on my Broncos podcast to let Justin Simmons walk and make the same offer to Jess Bates.  Right after that podcast the Bengals tagged Bates.  Jessy Bates did NOT disappoint.  Before I go any further the Broncos have been run [into the ground] by would be owner / GM / HC / OC... John Elway from behind the scenes.  Von Miller wanted out of the Elway led Broncos and Justin Simmons [an Elway pick] was groomed by Elway's pr department to replace Von as not just a Broncos spokesperson but an 'NFL' spokesperson.  How does this pertain to the Bengals.....?  Fast forward to this off-season ESPN outrageously proclaimed Justin Simmons the NFL's number #1 safety and making Jessy Bates chopped liver by comparison.  If you as Bengals fans, have bought into the pr spin that Simmons in any way is in Jessy Bates universe, I ask you to simply watch the Bengals VS Broncos at NFL 'replay'.  Before I came to this board or thread I said on my Broncos podcast,  that Jessy Bates needs to take his agent into the Bengals front office with that ESPN nonsense ranking and have a serious talk.   When your team stinks and you tell it like it is you aren't the most popular podcast among fellow fans.  However, we have a strong NFL centric following because we do tell it like it is and we have got several fans from both conferences to actually study film on Simmons beyond the context-less FAKE stats Simmons gets, and they are floored just how bad he really is.

This, make the NFL pr spokesperson look good 'at all costs', added to the... 'pay QB's the kings ransom', opens up a couple cans of worms.  I think it's a slap in the face to players like Bates who really are great at their position to be relegated as 'chop liver' in the 'rankings bs spin cycle.  I'm sure the Bengals front office isn't crying a river that god-awful Simmons is touted as 'king of the safeties'.   I also have noted reading this thread that Bengals fans are going down the slipper slope Broncos fans have gone down now for seven seasons of 'Just Good Enough'.  The NFL has turned the QB position into a Disney princess, and we as fans find it no problem to pay them billions of dollars [I'm being dramatic obviously] at the cost of surrounding them with great talent you have to pay for.  Because of Mahomes half a billion contract, I do not see him staying in KC because the overpayment of his contract is just not sustainable because QBs don't work in a vacuum.   You have to pay great players even if they are NOT the QB.

What is the name of your podcast?

I don't understand much of what you are saying because John Elway has no control over how other NFL executives, coaches, and players ranked Simmons as the #1 safety for ESPN.  Elway also does not control PFF who also ranked Simmons as the #1 safety.  Or USA Today which also ranked Simmons as the best safety.  Or his fellow NFL players who voted him as one of the top safeties and the 45th best player in the entire league?  Seems kind of silly to call all of those sources "fake"

Also please post a link to all the rankings that say Bates is just "chopped liver".

Seems like you are just making up all of this stuff.

[HardLiqor Broncos]

(07-17-2022, 01:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What is the name of your podcast?

I don't understand much of what you are saying because John Elway has no control over how other NFL executives, coaches, and players ranked Simmons as the #1 safety for ESPN.  Elway also does not control PFF who also ranked Simmons as the #1 safety.  Or USA Today which also ranked Simmons as the best safety.  Or his fellow NFL players who voted him as one of the top safeties and the 45th best player in the entire league?  Seems kind of silly to call all of those sources "fake"

Also please post a link to all the rankings that say Bates is just "chopped liver".

Seems like you are just making up all of this stuff.

Fake sources? With all due respect.  Yes, Dove Valley would like you to think Elway has no control which is weird all by itself.  You tell me... If Elway has "NO control"  WHY is it that he... A. Has the biggest office at Dove Valley [As seen in multiple Broncos videos].  B.) As the 'head of the selection committee' [source Denver Broncos ]  told [quasi GM] George Paton that he was "NOT to hire Dan Quinn" [who Paton was going to hire]  This reported by the Dallas beat writers close to Dan Quinn.  We linked to the Dallas podcast at our Youtube channel.  C.) Reported from multiple sources that John Elway was tapping George Paton on the shoulder throughout the 2022 draft and is seen in the draft room during the entire early rounds of the draft.  No control!!??

Question: Simmons, the darling of the sports media is being "voted by his peers" as the #1 safety, WHY did these same peers NOT vote him into the pro bowl last season?  Just a question.  Those lack of votes speaks volumes to what me and other people's eyeballs are telling us.  But, hey... If you guys want to swap Jessy Bates for Justin Simmons, I'll help pack Justin Simmons bags and even pay his ticket to Cincy.  

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2022, 05:25 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote: Fake sources? With all due respect.  Yes, Dove Valley would like you to think Elway has no control which is weird all by itself.  You tell me... If Elway has "NO control"  WHY is it that he... A. Has the biggest office at Dove Valley [As seen in multiple Broncos videos].  B.) As the 'head of the selection committee' [source Denver Broncos ]  told [quasi GM] George Paton that he was "NOT to hire Dan Quinn" [who Paton was going to hire]  This reported by the Dallas beat writers close to Dan Quinn.  We linked to the Dallas podcast at our Youtube channel.  C.) Reported from multiple sources that John Elway was tapping George Paton on the shoulder throughout the 2022 draft and is scene in the draft room during the entire early rounds of the draft.  No control!!??

I said he has no control over the other NFL executives, coaches, and players who took part in the ESPN poll that rated Simmons #1.

(07-17-2022, 05:25 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote: Question: Simmons, the darling of the sports media is being "voted by his peers" as the #1 safety, WHY did these same peers NOT vote him into the pro bowl last season?  Just a question. 

Simmons signed his contract extension in 2021.  That was when I was talking about.


What is the name of your podcast or Youtube channel?

[bengaloo]

I think the large guaranteed money trend will backfire and it will start with the Browns and Watson.

Bates isnt as big of a priority as other players are about to be on this team. Not too mention his poor play last year.

[HardLiqor Broncos]

@ Fredtoast

I just wanted to clarify J.E.s control, and sports writers do get 'paid' to write [just say'n]. Simmons actually did not get a "contract extension" he got a 'new' contract now paying him 18 mil hitting the Broncos with a dead cap of 29 mil [Thanks John!] I will add... True to the Elway led Broncos organization form, Elway has once again put the cart in front of the horse [pun intended] by bringing in poor Russell Wilson. Wilson would be wise to test drive the Broncos before anchoring the organization to a 250 mil no end in financial sight quagmire. A major hole that will take, at minimum. a decade to crawl out of. You guys played the Broncos last season. Can you honestly tell me their problems were ALL on Teddy Bridgewater? Cincy never felt threaten once in that game against our player personnel. Again, do you NOT remember Simmons getting turned around and beat by your own wideouts? I can show you ten other games where he gets beat like that. Thats what ESPN calls #1 safety play.

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2022, 09:30 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote:   Again, do you NOT remember Simmons getting turned around and beat by your own wideouts?  I can show you ten other games where he gets beat like that.  Thats what ESPN calls #1 safety play.

Yes, and I can show you videos of Joe Burrow making a dozen TERRIBLE passes.

All I was pointing out was that the ESPN poll was not of ESPN analysts.  It was of NFL executives, coaches, and players.  And John Elway had no influence over them.

And PFF also ranked him as the #1 safety.

And USA Today ranked him the #1 safety

His fellow NFL players ranked him the #2 safety (behind Budda Baker) and the #45 overall player in the league.

And he was Second team All-Pro

And he was selected to the Pro Bowl

So excuse me for respectfully disagreeing with your assessment that he was "god awful".  And where are the links to all the experts calling Bates "chopped liver".

You sound like a pathetic Skip Bayless wanna-be who just says the most insane shit as a desperate scream for attention.

What is the name of your podcast?

[fredtoast]

(07-17-2022, 09:30 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote:  Simmons actually did not get a "contract extension" he got a 'new' contract now paying him 18 mil hitting the Broncos with a dead cap of 29 mil [Thanks John!] 

Minor details here, but.  .  .

1.  I always use the term "extension" whenever a player gets a new deal with year(s) still left on his current contract.

2.  You have zero dead cap space because Simmons is still on your roster.

[Whatever]

(07-17-2022, 09:30 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote: @ Fredtoast

I just wanted to clarify J.E.s control, and sports writers do get 'paid' to write [just say'n].  Simmons actually did not get a "contract extension" he got a 'new' contract now paying him 18 mil hitting the Broncos with a dead cap of 29 mil [Thanks John!]   I will add... True to the Elway led Broncos organization  form, Elway has once again put the cart in front of the horse [pun intended] by bringing in poor Russell Wilson.   Wilson would be wise to test drive the Broncos before anchoring the organization to a 250 mil no end in financial sight quagmire.   A major hole that will take, at minimum. a decade to crawl out of.  You guys played the Broncos last season.  Can you honestly tell me their problems were ALL on Teddy Bridgewater?  Cincy never felt threaten once in that game against our player personnel.   Again, do you NOT remember Simmons getting turned around and beat by your own wideouts?  I can show you ten other games where he gets beat like that.  Thats what ESPN calls #1 safety play.

Being fair, every defensive player in the league gets beat sometimes.  Even during our playoff run where Bates was playing at a high level, he took a number of big L's on snaps, like giving up a TD to Kelce in the AFCCG, getting torched by AJ Brown on a 40+ yard bomb, and whiffing on a tackle on a 40+ yard run against the Titans.

Specifically regarding coverage, if you want to look at Passer Rating Allowed When Targeted, Simmons has allowed ratings of 94.5, 43.6, 102.2, and 66.5 the last four years.  Bates has allowed 77.7, 100.1, 70.7, and 122.0.  Simmons has two seasons better than Bates' best and his worst season was still nearly 20 better than Bates' worst.  Bates also has more missed tackles and fewer Int's in that time.  He is objectively nowhere near Simmons as a player.  That's why his contract demands are so ludicrous.

[BFritz21]

Late Sunday night (a few hours ago), CBS Sports listed eight potential teams to trade for Bates:

Quote:8. Jets
They're clearly invested in upgrading Robert Saleh's lineup, specifically on defense. And pairing Bates with new starter Jordan Whitehead would give them a dynamic duo on the back end. Lamarcus Joyner, now 31 and coming off a serious injury, is better served coming off the bench. But is general manager Joe Douglas really going to break the bank for Bates when he wouldn't do it for Jamal Adams or Marcus Maye, and after already giving Whitehead decent money (up to $14.5 million)?

7. Commanders
It's as simple as this: Ron Rivera is a defensive guy, and the weakest link on his otherwise feisty defense is the secondary, specifically safety. Washington has financial flexibility going into 2022, and depending on Carson Wentz's performance at quarterback, they could save tens of millions by resetting that spot in 2023. Bates would represent a monumental upgrade over current starters Bobby McCain and Kamren Curl, giving Rivera a true centerfielder.

6. 49ers
Jimmie Ward has quietly but steadily risen to be one of San Francisco's top players on the back end of a stingy "D," but Jaquiski Tartt and linebacker hybrid Marcell Harris, who combined to start 21 games in 2021, are both gone. Their successor, Talanoa Hufanga, a 2021 fifth-rounder, saw limited action as a rookie. The 49ers figure to rely even more on their defense to make another title push now that Trey Lance is taking over at QB, but they also already spent big at corner for Charvarius Ward.

5. Colts
Even though they traded for Matt Ryan, it's pretty clear the Colts are built to win with their defense in 2022. And the one position that doesn't have a bona fide stud is safety, after the D-line (DeForest Buckner), linebackers (Darius Leonard) and corners (Stephon Gilmore or Kenny Moore). Rodney McLeod is solid, if better suited as the No. 3, and he's a rental anyway. Justin Blackmon, meanwhile, is promising but coming off a torn Achilles. As a bonus, Bates was born and raised in Indiana.

4. Patriots
When can Bill Belichick ever be counted out when it comes to a big name on the block? Both Adrian Phillips and Kyle Dugger have done good things at the position for their solid defense, but mainstay Devin McCourty will be 35 this year, and top play-maker J.C. Jackson is gone after bolting for the Chargers in free agency. Bates would help offset the loss of a difference-maker and could conceivably play multiple roles for Belichick, who's still riding an old-school defensive approach.

3. Raiders
New GM Dave Ziegler has already proven he's willing to go big or go home, so why not keep going? His safety room isn't barren, with 2021 second-rounder Trevon Moehrig starting all 17 games as a rookie, but the hard-hitting Johnathan Abram may or may not be in their long-term plans after he had his fifth-year option declined. In the high-flying AFC West, proven secondary pieces are invaluable, and they have plenty of cash ($21.6M in remaining 2022 cap space) to pay Bates up front.

2. Cowboys
Dallas already has two of the NFL's top defensive play-makers in Micah Parsons and Trevon Diggs. Imagine if they use some of the $22.5M in remaining 2022 cap space to make Bates part of the equation. Jayron Kearse was a force in his 2021 breakout, but he's logged just one full season as a starter in the NFL. Malik Hooker is just fine, too, but he's yet to play a full season and isn't breaking the bank after re-signing. Jerry Jones loves a good splash, and this one would help reinforce their defense's title aspirations both in the short and long term.

1. Eagles
If there's one team that's made a big move at pretty much every position of need this offseason, it's the Eagles, who addressed holes at receiver (A.J. Brown), defensive tackle (Jordan Davis), pass rusher (Haason Reddick), linebacker (Kyzir White) and cornerback (James Bradberry). The last one left is safety, where Jaquiski Tartt has come aboard as camp competition but Anthony Harris and Marcus Epps are serving as placeholder starters. Trade-happy GM Howie Roseman has admittedly struggled to identify long-term answers at safety via the draft, and he practices and preaches the importance of patient roster-building. So Bates, who played on a Bengals team that employed current Eagles assistant head coach Jemal Singleton, represents the ideal solution for a quiet NFC East contender.

I have my doubts that this whole scenario ends up working for us, but they just posted it a few hours so let's hope they know something we don't and that our front office is paying attention.

I've seen Dallas taking a safety in the first round of next year's draft and them having that much cap space makes the trade make sense.

Roseman being trade-happy and them needing a safety also makes a lot of sense and let's just hope that our front office takes their heads out of their asses and gets something for him.

(I do realize that we can't trade him until he signs the tag.)

Actually, most of those options seem to make a lot of sense, so I'll be PISSED if we don't at least get something for him.

If Mike were still running things, I can see him being too stubborn to trade him, but let's hope that we continue with our good moves and trade his ass.

[fredtoast]

Now that the deadline has passed to work out a long term deal I am guessing there is zero chance we trade Bates.

No team is going to give up much value for a guy on a 1 year rental deal.

[THE PISTONS]

(07-16-2022, 04:00 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ian Rapoport Tweeted that we only offered him 4 million more TOTAL than what he would make on the franchise tag, not 4 million per year.

If that's true, then I don't blame him for not signing the tender and I'm actually pissed at our front office.

I was thinking we were offering him 15 or 16 per and he was declining, but 4 more total is ripping him off.

I thought we were done being cheap?

Only makes sense if the plan was never to sign him long-term, which if we were trying to do the tag and trade, I understand, but I hope we didn't just low ball him.

So 3 points.

1) We drafted his replacement.
2) Basically, the Bengals are choosing Higgins over Bates. Atleast it appears that way.
3) Bates is wildly inconsistent. He's great at times. Average others. If we gave him a huge bonus and he was average...that's bad for us. I'd say Higgins has been more consistent.

It's a risk. Our drafted safeties might not pan out. And Bell is a free agent soon too.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(07-18-2022, 02:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Late Sunday night (a few hours ago), CBS Sports listed eight potential teams to trade for Bates:


I have my doubts that this whole scenario ends up working for us, but they just posted it a few hours so let's hope they know something we don't and that our front office is paying attention.

I've seen Dallas taking a safety in the first round of next year's draft and them having that much cap space makes the trade make sense.

Roseman being trade-happy and them needing a safety also makes a lot of sense and let's just hope that our front office takes their heads out of their asses and gets something for him.

(I do realize that we can't trade him until he signs the tag.)

Actually, most of those options seem to make a lot of sense, so I'll be PISSED if we don't at least get something for him.

If Mike were still running things, I can see him being too stubborn to trade him, but let's hope that we continue with our good moves and trade his ass.

We wont trade Bates for draft picks. We will want a comparable player in trade So someone like Deebo or Kittle from the 49ers. for example. Which 49ers more than likely wouldn't do so point is moot.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-17-2022, 01:08 PM)HardLiqor Broncos Wrote: Thank you very much for access.   Obviously a Broncos fan here HOWEVER, I would be remiss if I didn't say that the Bengals are my daughters #1 NFL team.

Two? off-seasons ago I lobbied on my Broncos podcast to let Justin Simmons walk and make the same offer to Jess Bates.  Right after that podcast the Bengals tagged Bates.  Jessy Bates did NOT disappoint.  Before I go any further the Broncos have been run [into the ground] by would be owner / GM / HC / OC... John Elway from behind the scenes.  Von Miller wanted out of the Elway led Broncos and Justin Simmons [an Elway pick] was groomed by Elway's pr department to replace Von as not just a Broncos spokesperson but an 'NFL' spokesperson.  How does this pertain to the Bengals.....?  Fast forward to this off-season ESPN outrageously proclaimed Justin Simmons the NFL's number #1 safety and making Jessy Bates chopped liver by comparison.  If you as Bengals fans, have bought into the pr spin that Simmons in any way is in Jessy Bates universe, I ask you to simply watch the Bengals VS Broncos at NFL 'replay'.  Before I came to this board or thread I said on my Broncos podcast,  that Jessy Bates needs to take his agent into the Bengals front office with that ESPN nonsense ranking and have a serious talk.   When your team stinks and you tell it like it is you aren't the most popular podcast among fellow fans.  However, we have a strong NFL centric following because we do tell it like it is and we have got several fans from both conferences to actually study film on Simmons beyond the context-less FAKE stats Simmons gets, and they are floored just how bad he really is.

This, make the NFL pr spokesperson look good 'at all costs', added to the... 'pay QB's the kings ransom', opens up a couple cans of worms.  I think it's a slap in the face to players like Bates who really are great at their position to be relegated as 'chop liver' in the 'rankings bs spin cycle.  I'm sure the Bengals front office isn't crying a river that god-awful Simmons is touted as 'king of the safeties'.   I also have noted reading this thread that Bengals fans are going down the slipper slope Broncos fans have gone down now for seven seasons of 'Just Good Enough'.  The NFL has turned the QB position into a Disney princess, and we as fans find it no problem to pay them billions of dollars [I'm being dramatic obviously] at the cost of surrounding them with great talent you have to pay for.  Because of Mahomes half a billion contract, I do not see him staying in KC because the overpayment of his contract is just not sustainable because QBs don't work in a vacuum.   You have to pay great players even if they are NOT the QB.

Nice hearing from a fan of another team. I am from Wyoming where there are a lot of Bronco fans.

All I can say is Bates is good but he isn't a top 5 Safety simply because he is not a good tackler and he lets things get into his 
head. His agent has screwed him by playing with our Front Office that will not overpay, they are fair but they aren't going to let
Joe Burrow or Ja'Marr Chase go for Jessie Bates.

[BFritz21]

(07-18-2022, 09:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So 3 points.

1) We drafted his replacement.
2) Basically, the Bengals are choosing Higgins over Bates. Atleast it appears that way.
3) Bates is wildly inconsistent. He's great at times. Average others. If we gave him a huge bonus and he was average...that's bad for us. I'd say Higgins has been more consistent.

It's a risk. Our drafted safeties might not pan out. And Bell is a free agent soon too.

1. Then why even have Bates on the team? So the rookies don't have to play day one and can be eased in? I think they'll be better than Bates if he half-asses the regular season again to avoid injury.

2. I don't think so........... I think it's just his agent convincing him that he should be the top (or near the top) safety in the league based off of his play in the playoffs, which was better, but I'm not even sure it made him good enough to be paid where his agent is commanding.

3. I disagree because, like I said, he half-assed it in the playoffs. I agree that I'd give Higgins money over Bates because, with a decent offensive line, we can outscore anyone in the game.

(07-18-2022, 11:06 AM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: We wont trade Bates for draft picks. We will want a comparable player in trade So someone like Deebo or Kittle from the 49ers. for example. Which 49ers more than likely wouldn't do so point is moot.

I don't think so........ we don't need another receiver and I know Kittle is a lot better than Hurst but you're right that they're not going to give up Kittle, and I don't know that we have that many other big holes on the roster, so draft picks are the only thing that make sense.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-18-2022, 09:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So 3 points.

1) We drafted his replacement.
2) Basically, the Bengals are choosing Higgins over Bates. Atleast it appears that way.
3) Bates is wildly inconsistent. He's great at times. Average others. If we gave him a huge bonus and he was average...that's bad for us. I'd say Higgins has been more consistent.

It's a risk. Our drafted safeties might not pan out. And Bell is a free agent soon too.

Or Jonah Williams over both 

[J24]

(07-18-2022, 09:01 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: So 3 points.

1) We drafted his replacement.
2) Basically, the Bengals are choosing Higgins over Bates. Atleast it appears that way.
3) Bates is wildly inconsistent. He's great at times. Average others. If we gave him a huge bonus and he was average...that's bad for us. I'd say Higgins has been more consistent.

It's a risk. Our drafted safeties might not pan out. And Bell is a free agent soon too.

Their not signing Tee Higgins to a deal along with Chase. I just can't see this Front Office putting 90 million in guaranteed money to the WR position. As good as Tee is it will be much easier to find a good #2 Wr then a FS the Caliber of Bates.

Also is Dax Hill Bates replacement? He played very little at FS during his time at Michigan and played more as a Nickle Back during his college career. Expecting him to fill Bates role is a questionable move!

[J24]

(07-18-2022, 04:10 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Or Jonah Williams over both 

More likely 

[cinci4life]

Sounds like Bengals have no intentions of trading Bates.

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2022/07/bengals-unlikely-to-trade-jessie-bates

[J24]

(07-24-2022, 12:27 PM)cinci4life Wrote: Sounds like Bengals have no intentions of trading Bates.

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2022/07/bengals-unlikely-to-trade-jessie-bates

That doesn't really surprise me. 

[Leon]

(07-24-2022, 12:27 PM)cinci4life Wrote: Sounds like Bengals have no intentions of trading Bates.

https://www.profootballrumors.com/2022/07/bengals-unlikely-to-trade-jessie-bates

i wish they would. get something for him that can help us in the next draft.