Zac's use of shotgun.

[KillerGoose]

(04-19-2022, 08:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is really tough to say that not having a solid running game doesn't impact PA ability at all.  The LBs and Safeties don't have to "respect" the run because the defensive line stuffs it.  

I understand the conventional logic behind this - it makes sense. I believed it as well, but it just doesn't work that way. Play-action just flat out works, no matter what. Those LBs always have to respect the run. Maybe in college you will see more freelancing, but in the NFL, you can't afford to do that. You have to keep in mind that these guys, back-ups and all, are NFL caliber running backs. So, if the LBs stop respecting the run, Samaje Perine is now running wild on you. Take the below screenshot...



This is a screenshot from the 2000 defensive playbook for the Indianapolis Colts. This section is detailing run fits. When those backers read run, they are playing run, regardless of if you are the worst rushing team or the best. It really benefits a team to run play-action more because of this. It just works, regardless of whether or not your run game is good. And yes, the run game this past season was well below average in most measures, the most disappointing of which being short yardage situations. I fully expect that to improve this season. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-19-2022, 08:57 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I understand the conventional logic behind this - it makes sense. I believed it as well, but it just doesn't work that way. Play-action just flat out works, no matter what. Those LBs always have to respect the run. Maybe in college you will see more freelancing, but in the NFL, you can't afford to do that. You have to keep in mind that these guys, back-ups and all, are NFL caliber running backs. So, if the LBs stop respecting the run, Samaje Perine is now running wild on you. Take the below screenshot...



This is a screenshot from the 2000 defensive playbook for the Indianapolis Colts. This section is detailing run fits. When those backers read run, they are playing run, regardless of if you are the worst rushing team or the best. It really benefits a team to run play-action more because of this. It just works, regardless of whether or not your run game is good. And yes, the run game this past season was well below average in most measures, the most disappointing of which being short yardage situations. I fully expect that to improve this season. 

I understand your point, and I appreciate the screen shot (cool stuff), but I also know human nature.  When I played safety, and were facing a team that threw the ball 80% of the time, I ALWAYS keyed in on the TE running a misdirection pattern away from the run.  Why?  Well, we had some hella fast LBs that could chase down almost any RB, but I hardly ever got burned on a handoff where the RB might break a tackle and need me to finish the tackle, but I got burned once flying in for run support and I never wanted to give up a big play again.

I know that is nothing like an NFL team, but I can't help but think that the speed of these LBs and safeties can close so quickly on a handoff that they aren't buying the play-action as much as they are watching for receivers to come firing off the line.  

Maybe I am making it overly simplistic, but I think we are arguing the same point:  The Bengals should run more PA and now that they have better personnel, perhaps they will.  It doesn't really matter now that they didn't run as much as we would have liked last year.  

[KillerGoose]

(04-19-2022, 09:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand your point, and I appreciate the screen shot (cool stuff), but I also know human nature.  When I played safety, and were facing a team that threw the ball 80% of the time, I ALWAYS keyed in on the TE running a misdirection pattern away from the run.  Why?  Well, we had some hella fast LBs that could chase down almost any RB, but I hardly ever got burned on a handoff where the RB might break a tackle and need me to finish the tackle, but I got burned once flying in for run support and I never wanted to give up a big play again.

I know that is nothing like an NFL team, but I can't help but think that the speed of these LBs and safeties can close so quickly on a handoff that they aren't buying the play-action as much as they are watching for receivers to come firing off the line.  

Maybe I am making it overly simplistic, but I think we are arguing the same point:  The Bengals should run more PA and now that they have better personnel, perhaps they will.  It doesn't really matter now that they didn't run as much as we would have liked last year.  

I think your second point responds to your first paragraph. It just isn't the NFL. You likely do see more freelancing at lower levels where there is athletic disparity, but you don't in the NFL. You can't, not when offensive linemen are running 4.7's and running backs are clocking in under 4.5. Those fast linebackers will get eaten up and the running back is off to the races. 

Yes, we are arguing the same point at the end of the day. Run more play-action and RPO's. The Bengals love to play out of the shotgun, so this is great to install more RPOs into the offense and utilize them. Create conflict amongst the linebackers. 

[WeezyBengal]

(04-14-2022, 01:03 PM)Tony Wrote: You think it would be easier to run out of the shotgun, because, the defense would think Pass more than if you were under center...

Not these days. Teams (like the Bengals) run under both. 

I don't think its as simple as looking at yards per play and then determining that we work better under shotgun simply because of that. A couple big plays here and there could skew that. A missed tackled by the defense that turns into a 90 yard TD could throw that stat off. Unfortunately football stats are pretty surface level so there isn't much more that we can look at. I will say though, Burrow has openly talked about how he likes running a spread style offense more than being under center - so Im sure that 100% plays into it. 

There are two things I hope to see more out of this offense this year. That is more run pass option out of shotgun and more play action under center. I feel like we didn't take advantage of both nearly enough last year, but I really think that was due to our trash offensive line. 

I wasn't thrilled with some of the stuff we did on offense last year, but I think ZT was handcuffed by a bad OL. Im holding off judgment until the end of this season when it comes to his offensive mind. He has the pieces in place now. 

[WeezyBengal]

(04-19-2022, 08:57 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I understand the conventional logic behind this - it makes sense. I believed it as well, but it just doesn't work that way. Play-action just flat out works, no matter what. Those LBs always have to respect the run. Maybe in college you will see more freelancing, but in the NFL, you can't afford to do that. You have to keep in mind that these guys, back-ups and all, are NFL caliber running backs. So, if the LBs stop respecting the run, Samaje Perine is now running wild on you. Take the below screenshot...



This is a screenshot from the 2000 defensive playbook for the Indianapolis Colts. This section is detailing run fits. When those backers read run, they are playing run, regardless of if you are the worst rushing team or the best. It really benefits a team to run play-action more because of this. It just works, regardless of whether or not your run game is good. And yes, the run game this past season was well below average in most measures, the most disappointing of which being short yardage situations. I fully expect that to improve this season. 

Play action doesn't work when you have guys hitting your QB as he's faking a handoff to the running back. 

[KillerGoose]

(04-19-2022, 09:31 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Play action doesn't work when you have guys hitting your QB as he's faking a handoff to the running back. 

Sure, those are also outliers. It's rare for that to happen. 

[Dr.Z]

(04-19-2022, 08:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It is really tough to say that not having a solid running game doesn't impact PA ability at all.  The LBs and Safeties don't have to "respect" the run because the defensive line stuffs it.  

I get what you are saying, and although it seems like ZT and company were willing to run in to a wall a lot early, they moved more to a Burrow-led "let Joe cook" offense as the season progress.  Sure, when matchups dictated it, they were almost run first (the first Raiders game) but overall, the run game (especially when you look at YPC) was below average (or so I would imagine).  

I don't have the stat to back it up, but I remember seeing something where Burrow was damn near perfect in PA passing.  I'm hopeful it grows, and with the newly improved offensive line, helps to protect Joe from taking hits as well as be highly efficient.  

If our line is as improved as it looks like it could be on paper, play action could be huge this season.   I love play action for an offense that can run the ball.   Lots of huge plays are beget from it when done right.  

[Tony]

(04-19-2022, 09:29 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Not these days. Teams (like the Bengals) run under both. 

I don't think its as simple as looking at yards per play and then determining that we work better under shotgun simply because of that. A couple big plays here and there could skew that. A missed tackled by the defense that turns into a 90 yard TD could throw that stat off. Unfortunately football stats are pretty surface level so there isn't much more that we can look at. I will say though, Burrow has openly talked about how he likes running a spread style offense more than being under center - so Im sure that 100% plays into it. 

There are two things I hope to see more out of this offense this year. That is more run pass option out of shotgun and more play action under center. I feel like we didn't take advantage of both nearly enough last year, but I really think that was due to our trash offensive line. 

I wasn't thrilled with some of the stuff we did on offense last year, but I think ZT was handcuffed by a bad OL. Im holding off judgment until the end of this season when it comes to his offensive mind. He has the pieces in place now. 

Ya, the play action was deffinetly halted by the Oline...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-19-2022, 09:29 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Not these days. Teams (like the Bengals) run under both. 

I don't think its as simple as looking at yards per play and then determining that we work better under shotgun simply because of that. A couple big plays here and there could skew that. A missed tackled by the defense that turns into a 90 yard TD could throw that stat off. Unfortunately football stats are pretty surface level so there isn't much more that we can look at. I will say though, Burrow has openly talked about how he likes running a spread style offense more than being under center - so Im sure that 100% plays into it. 

There are two things I hope to see more out of this offense this year. That is more run pass option out of shotgun and more play action under center. I feel like we didn't take advantage of both nearly enough last year, but I really think that was due to our trash offensive line. 

I wasn't thrilled with some of the stuff we did on offense last year, but I think ZT was handcuffed by a bad OL. Im holding off judgment until the end of this season when it comes to his offensive mind. He has the pieces in place now. 

Nice post Weezy, I agree with everything you say here. We should have a better idea of how good of an Offense Zac and Brian
can run now with a decent OL. I have said it before, doesn't matter how good of a playcaller you are with poor play by the OL.

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-19-2022, 09:31 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Play action doesn't work when you have guys hitting your QB as he's faking a handoff to the running back. 

(04-19-2022, 10:02 AM)Dr.Z Wrote: If our line is as improved as it looks like it could be on paper, play action could be huge this season.   I love play action for an offense that can run the ball.   Lots of huge plays are beget from it when done right.  

Right, for the play action to be firing on all cylinders you have to be able to run the ball with some authority. Which we have been able to do on rare occasions lately.

And if we can get a decent running game going the play action can be deadly. Even fake draws from the shotgun.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-20-2022, 01:43 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right, for the play action to be firing on all cylinders you have to be able to run the ball with some authority. Which we have been able to do on rare occasions lately.

And if we can get a decent running game going the play action can be deadly. Even fake draws from the shotgun.

This is why I think we will see a major jump Offensively. Just overall, in both the running game and the passing game if the OL 
stays healthy. The 3 dudes we brought in are pretty good pass protectors but are physical mean, damn good run blockers.

Imagine how deadly our weapons with Burrow can be with a running game that is close to tops in the league?

On Play Action where Burrow can fake out Defenses AND have time to go through his reads?

I don't know how good honestly, could be record breaking.

[Tomkat]

I don't understand why every snap isn't shotgun. No defensive player can outrun a shotgun snap, and no QB can drop back faster than a shotgun snap, so therefore the QB has more time before the pass-rush arrives, as a result.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 11:54 AM)Tomkat Wrote: I don't understand why every snap isn't shotgun.  No defensive player can outrun a shotgun snap, and no QB can drop back faster than a shotgun snap, so therefore the QB has more time before the pass-rush arrives, as a result.

The key is to be unpredictable, don't want to always be in the Shotgun either. Look at how the Titans were running their Offense a
couple of years ago when they were so dominant with Henry and Tannehill had his best season. They would line up Tannehill under
Center a lot and run the ball with Henry and out of nowhere go Play Action. 

I would like to see us do this some and in Jumbo packages at times with our new O-lineman. I want to be the most physical team
in the NFL, we are close now with our new additions on the OL.

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-21-2022, 12:36 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The key is to be unpredictable, don't want to always be in the Shotgun either. Look at how the Titans were running their Offense a
couple of years ago when they were so dominant with Henry and Tannehill had his best season. They would line up Tannehill under
Center a lot and run the ball with Henry and out of nowhere go Play Action. 

I would like to see us do this some and in Jumbo packages at times with our new O-lineman. I want to be the most physical team
in the NFL, we are close now with our new additions on the OL.

Right, and that's one area I believe ZT and co. have room for improvement on. What were the stats for pass plays from the shotgun ? 82 % or something ? I'd like to see that come down some like 70 - 75% passing from shotgun.

And I'd like to see them be like 50-50 passing/running from under center. Keep the defense guessing.

Now in their defense I'm pretty certain the playbook has been somewhat limited due to our crappy Oline. That's why I'm pumped to see what they can do this coming season.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 12:58 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right, and that's one area I believe ZT and co. have room for improvement on. What were the stats for pass plays from the shotgun ? 82 % or something ? I'd like to see that come down some like 70 - 75% passing from shotgun.

And I'd like to see them be like 50-50 passing/running from under center. Keep the defense guessing.

Now in their defense I'm pretty certain the playbook has been somewhat limited due to our crappy Oline. That's why I'm pumped to see what they can do this coming season.

As Fred said in his 2nd post of this thread, we ran out of the Shotgun 62% of the time which was 12th in the league. We need to
run it like you said around 70-75% with how good we were at it (1st overall in YPP). 

Also agree we need to be about 50/50 run/pass to keep Defenses guessing. Agree again about the OL hampering the Play Calling.

Now we will see how good of a Play Caller Taylor and company really are with a decent OL.

[Soonerpeace]

You know we weren’t bad running the ball. Our protection was poor but it might be tied to a degree knowing we’d pass. The predictability part is somewhat tied to the down and distance. We had to many 3rd and longs. We had too many no gains running. Some have mentioned if we were less predictable. I’d expect Joe can dump it off to Joe more whereas too often Joe was the target all along. He’d immediately pop out. Now if it looks like he’s not needed he can drift out. But we ran the ball to often on first down with poor results. We were always behind the chains. Now I expect more 2nd and 6’s. Joe basically gets 2 plays. He gets the preferred play call and a substitute. I think it’s going to be a whole new world. And I think they look at using Chase like SF uses Debo.

I think you see Hawk late releasing down the middle with Chase getting double covered and Higgins getting at least 1 guy. Hawk is faster than Uzomah. I think that’s going to be huge. But I’ve said on here many times since FA that Cincy not ever seen the real Joe Mixon. He had 13 TD’s last year. He will get 18 this year. He’s dangerous in the open field.

[KillerGoose]

(04-21-2022, 02:15 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You know we weren’t bad running the ball. Our protection was poor but it might be tied to a degree knowing we’d pass. The predictability part is somewhat tied to the down and distance. We had to many 3rd and longs. We had too many no gains running. Some have mentioned if we were less predictable. I’d expect Joe can dump it off to Joe more whereas too often Joe was the target all along. He’d immediately pop out. Now if it looks like he’s not needed he can drift out. But we ran the ball to often on first down with poor results. We were always behind the chains. Now I expect more 2nd and 6’s. Joe basically gets 2 plays. He gets the preferred play call and a substitute. I think it’s going to be a whole new world. And I think they look at using Chase like SF uses Debo.

I think you see Hawk late releasing down the middle with Chase getting double covered and Higgins getting at least 1 guy. Hawk is faster than Uzomah. I think that’s going to be huge. But I’ve said on here many times since FA that Cincy not ever seen the real Joe Mixon. He had 13 TD’s last year. He will get 18 this year. He’s dangerous in the open field.

I agree with most of your post except the bolded. Cincinnati was undoubtedly bad at running the ball. They were bottom 10 in most rushing categories (excluding volume statistics) and bottom three in short yardage categories. 

[Soonerpeace]

(04-19-2022, 09:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I understand your point, and I appreciate the screen shot (cool stuff), but I also know human nature.  When I played safety, and were facing a team that threw the ball 80% of the time, I ALWAYS keyed in on the TE running a misdirection pattern away from the run.  Why?  Well, we had some hella fast LBs that could chase down almost any RB, but I hardly ever got burned on a handoff where the RB might break a tackle and need me to finish the tackle, but I got burned once flying in for run support and I never wanted to give up a big play again.

I know that is nothing like an NFL team, but I can't help but think that the speed of these LBs and safeties can close so quickly on a handoff that they aren't buying the play-action as much as they are watching for receivers to come firing off the line.  

Maybe I am making it overly simplistic, but I think we are arguing the same point:  The Bengals should run more PA and now that they have better personnel, perhaps they will.  It doesn't really matter now that they didn't run as much as we would have liked last year.  

(04-21-2022, 03:23 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I agree with most of your post except the bolded. Cincinnati was undoubtedly bad at running the ball. They were bottom 10 in most rushing categories (excluding volume statistics) and bottom three in short yardage categories. 

I should have said not awful lol. They ran the ball late to win several games. I should have said they had some success at times. Because they did. A lot of second halves. But overall they weren’t good