Paying the O-line. What we did back in '05.

[fredtoast]

After the '04 season the Bengals felt that they had one of the better offensive lines in the league, but they were worried about being able to afford all of them. None of them were under contract for more than two more seasons. They used a 4th round pick on a Center (Ghiaciuc) and then re-signed OC Rich Braham, but only for 2 years.

After the '05 season they drafted Whitworth in the 2nd round then gave contract extensions to RT Willie Anderson, RG Bobbie Williams, and LT Levi Jones. I believe that Jones and Anderson were the highest paid tackle duo in the league, and Bobbie was well paid also.

After the '06 season they let Eric Steinbach leave in free agency. I think they felt the same way about Steinbach that i did, he was a very good player, but not worth the money Cleveland gave him. His contract was either the highest or second highest for an OG at that time. Plus, by then Whitworth had a season under his belt and was ready to step in and start at LG.

That is kind of what I expect the Bengals to do this time. We like all of our starters on the O-line, but we can't give them all the type of contracts they could get on the free agent market. We have already given Whit a little more time just like we did with Braham. Obviously the plan is for one of our top two picks last year will be ready to step in when Whit leaves.

If the coaches like what they see in Bodine, then we might pay both Smith and Zeitler. Ten years ago the Bengals stepped up and paid three of our O-lineman top money in addition to the short deal they gave Braham. We already gave Boling his sweet deal, so that just leaves Zeitler and Smith. And if we had to spread it out we could pay Dre this off-season, and wait until after the '16 season to re-sign Zeitler.

But I am guessing we let Dre walk and give Zeitler a long term deal. I see either Cedric or Jake starting at RT next year, and then both starting in '17 when Whit's contract is up. And if we take another O-lineman high in our next draft he would still have a year ton develop before competing for a starting spot.

[TGISunday]

Hard to see us hold onto Smith.

I hope they try to reduce Z's cap hit by offering him long-term money. Like last time, I have no problem letting the center walk.

[BengalChris]

Until Og or Fisher shows they can do it at the NFL level, the safe move is to try and keep Smith around another year or two.

[SunsetBengal]

We may just be able to sign both Zeitler to a full contract, and get Smith for a couple more years at a team friendly rate. Smith has been chronically injured/dinged up, for the duration of his NFL career. Can't really see many teams giving him that "Top tier" free agent contract.

[jgott32]

I would like to think in 2 years the line would look something like this:

Ced, Whit, Boling, Zeitler, Fisher

[TGISunday]

(11-15-2015, 05:10 PM)jgott32 Wrote: I would like to think in 2 years the line would look something like this:

Ced, Whit, Boling, Zeitler, Fisher

At what age do you think Whit plays until? Hes already the leagues oldest

[fredtoast]

Even though Bengals have been supportive of Bodine, they won't give him more than another year. Ghiaciuc started in '06 due to Braham's injury, and he only got 2 more years as starter before he was replaced.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(11-15-2015, 05:10 PM)jgott32 Wrote: I would like to think in 2 years the line would look something like this:

Ced, Whit, Boling, Zeitler, Fisher

Yet again, WTF are you moving two of the best in the LEAGUE at their positions (with Whitworth being the best outright), to positions where they are worse (or in Boling's case, he's never even played)?

And even if you DID move Boling to center, why not just put Fisher or Ogbuehi to LG?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-15-2015, 06:15 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Yet again, WTF are you moving two of the best in the LEAGUE at their positions (with Whitworth being the best outright), to positions where they are worse (or in Boling's case, he's never even played)?

And even if you DID move Boling to center, why not just put Fisher or Ogbuehi to LG?

I know people are going bananas over Lap comparing Ogbuehi to Munoz, which I almost get from an athleticism stand point, but Ogbuehi played so much better at RT than LT in college. So much better. Night and day type differences. 
But he has no where NEAR the play style of Munoz. Munoz was a killer with great hands. He looked to finish and hurt guys. Ogbuehi is so much more passive in everything. 
There's no reason to think he could usurp Whit even if Whit deteriorates a bit.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-15-2015, 06:44 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: I know people are going bananas over Lap comparing Ogbuehi to Munoz, which I almost get from an athleticism stand point, but Ogbuehi played so much better at RT than LT in college. So much better. Night and day type differences. 
But he has no where NEAR the play style of Munoz. Munoz was a killer with great hands. He looked to finish and hurt guys. Ogbuehi is so much more passive in everything. 
There's no reason to think he could usurp Whit even if Whit deteriorates a bit.

Football was much rougher, back in Munoz' day.  Back then, you likely never would have ever heard of a flag for unnecessary roughness on an Offensive Lineman.  Heck, back then there were no rules protecting the QB from high and low hits, or even getting hit after throwing the ball, let alone "defenseless receiver" calls..


I can remember watching, as a young boy, one of the Steelers (maybe Jack Lambert?) helicoptering Ken Anderson around by his face mask.  I can tell you, Kenny A. was certainly glad to see Munoz drafted. 

Btw, I agree that Cedric Ogbuehi is much more finess and athleticism than physicality.

[jgott32]

(11-15-2015, 06:15 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Yet again, WTF are you moving two of the best in the LEAGUE at their positions (with Whitworth being the best outright), to positions where they are worse (or in Boling's case, he's never even played)?

And even if you DID move Boling to center, why not just put Fisher or Ogbuehi to LG?

I agree Whits the best in the league not arguing that. I would love for Whit to finish here at LT. I moved him bc I want him here but I don't know where he fits when his extension is done. If he was in their plans at LT, wouldn't he have gotten more than 1 year extension? They drafted 2  tackles for a reason. You think they're going to pay him tackle money to stay when they've drafted his successor?  The thing is the money won't be there to keep everyone. Whit was a stud at G and admitted he loved playing there, don't see a problem with it. Especially, if Ced turns out as good as his praise.

Isn't Boling the backup C? Ced started out as a G in college. Wouldn't mind seeing him there. Just trying to fill in the gaps so it works out for everyone, minus Bodine. I think that's a stud line.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-15-2015, 07:23 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Football was much rougher, back in Munoz' day.  Back then, you likely never would have ever heard of a flag for unnecessary roughness on an Offensive Lineman.  Heck, back then there were no rules protecting the QB from high and low hits, or even getting hit after throwing the ball, let alone "defenseless receiver" calls..


I can remember watching, as a young boy, one of the Steelers (maybe Jack Lambert?) helicoptering Ken Anderson around by his face mask.  I can tell you, Kenny A. was certainly glad to see Munoz drafted. 

Btw, I agree that Cedric Ogbuehi is much more finess and athleticism than physicality.

It's easy to get enamored by the athleticism of a lineman. Yet on the OL, it's not nearly as important as some think. Ogbuehi has a very long way to go before he is ready for the NFL.
He carries his hands low and has poor punch timing. That leads to his hands getting wide and his chest open for defenders. 
He has to re-tool that whole aspect of his game. 
Secondly, he needs to greatly improve his core and lower body strength so he can be more effective in the run game and holding up vs stronger rushers. He's alright walling off, but he doesn't drive guys off the ball and he doesn't control his man when he loses. What makes Whitworth so great is even when he loses off the snap he is able to recover and reset himself quickly. Almost all great OTs can do this. 

[jowczarski]

Yes, Ogbuehi was a better RT in college - but everyone I've talked to believe he's an NFL LT. He'll get every opportunity to earn that. But he'll start at RT with Whit being under contract.

Here's the thing about Bodine. I get his issues - but if you're looking at having millions of dollars spread among the line and across the team, they can't all make a ton of money - like Russell Wilson making that minimum salary so the Seahawks could stock up elsewhere. Bodine is making $714K next year and $804 Kin 2017. There are a finite number of dollars to spread around - I have a feeling Bodine is here as the starting center until his contract expires at least.

Here is how the projected starting line is paid out next year:
LT: Whitworth - $8 million
LG: Boling - $4.75
C: Bodine - 714K
RG: Zeitler - $8.07 million*
RT: Ogbuehi - $2.11 million**
Swing: Fisher $968K

*It makes sense to give Zeitler an extension this summer. They probably want to see him put together a healthy, full season. The game's best guard, Baltimore's Marshal Yanda signed a 4-year, $37.4 million this summer with $17.8 guaranteed ($9 million signing bonus). But, he's older. Obviously the fight will be over the signing bonus and up front money, but Zeitler is already guaranteed $8.07 million for next year - so the groundwork is set.

**They will save just over $4 million with Smith ($6.36 million this year) walking away.

Right now, only Boling ($5.45 million), Bodine ($804K), Ogbuehi ($2.54), Fisher ($1.16) are under contract for 2017.

Whit turns 34 in December. Thus far, he's earned an extra year on the extension. But going into the year when he turns 36 in 2017, it's hard to say he'll be able to play at a similarly high level.

I also think it's folly to just assume you can shuffle guys around. Boling only played guard and tackle in college. Just because he took snaps at that spot six years ago when he was a rookie, or even since - he's the no. 3 center on the depth chart behind T.J. Johnson. He's also in charge of the silent snap count. So you're not just 'moving' that guy that easily.

At the NFL level, only Whit has proven he can elsewhere, which is guard. So that means in 2016, you'd want to let Zeitler be the highest paid guard in the league for one year, and then let him walk away at the age of 26 so you can move a 34-year-old Whit to guard and *hope* he can play well for another 1-3 years?

This team has learned that you have to have the bulls up front in order for your $96 million QB hit his targets, so I think Zeitler and Marvin Jones are the priority this offseason on offense, Pacman and then Iloka on defense. They'll offer Dre an extension again (which he turned down this summer) and that will be the curious one. He's played a bit unevenly this year so far, so does he take the money - or gamble on himself with the $7 mill. guaranteed next year?

[RoyleRedlegs]

(11-15-2015, 08:07 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Yes, Ogbuehi was a better RT in college - but everyone I've talked to believe he's an NFL LT. He'll get every opportunity to earn that. But he'll start at RT with Whit being under contract.

Here's the thing about Bodine. I get his issues - but if you're looking at having millions of dollars spread among the line and across the team, they can't all make a ton of money - like Russell Wilson making that minimum salary so the Seahawks could stock up elsewhere. Bodine is making $714K next year and $804 Kin 2017. There are a finite number of dollars to spread around - I have a feeling Bodine is here as the starting center until his contract expires at least.

Here is how the projected starting line is paid out next year:
LT: Whitworth - $8 million
LG: Boling - $4.75
C: Bodine - 714K
RG: Zeitler - $8.07 million*
RT: Ogbuehi - $2.11 million**
Swing: Fisher $968K

*It makes sense to give Zeitler an extension this summer. They probably want to see him put together a healthy, full season. The game's best guard, Baltimore's Marshal Yanda signed a 4-year, $37.4 million this summer with $17.8 guaranteed ($9 million signing bonus). But, he's older. Obviously the fight will be over the signing bonus and up front money, but Zeitler is already guaranteed $8.07 million for next year - so the groundwork is set.

**They will save just over $4 million with Smith ($6.36 million this year) walking away.

Right now, only Boling ($5.45 million), Bodine ($804K), Ogbuehi ($2.54), Fisher ($1.16) are under contract for 2017.

Whit turns 34 in December. Thus far, he's earned an extra year on the extension. But going into the year when he turns 36 in 2017, it's hard to say he'll be able to play at a similarly high level.

I also think it's folly to just assume you can shuffle guys around. Boling only played guard and tackle in college. Just because he took snaps at that spot six years ago when he was a rookie, or even since - he's the no. 3 center on the depth chart behind T.J. Johnson. He's also in charge of the silent snap count. So you're not just 'moving' that guy that easily.

At the NFL level, only Whit has proven he can elsewhere, which is guard. So that means in 2016, you'd want to let Zeitler be the highest paid guard in the league for one year, and then let him walk away at the age of 26 so you can move a 34-year-old Whit to guard and *hope* he can play well for another 1-3 years?

This team has learned that you have to have the bulls up front in order for your $96 million QB hit his targets, so I think Zeitler and Marvin Jones are the priority this offseason on offense, Pacman and then Iloka on defense. They'll offer Dre an extension again (which he turned down this summer) and that will be the curious one. He's played a bit unevenly this year so far, so does he take the money - or gamble on himself with the $7 mill. guaranteed next year?

No chance of the draft offering solutions before then? We have to just accept the issues from here out basically?
This draft *should* have some quality centers (I like the kid from Mizzou a lot) given our incredibly lack of IOL depth, wouldn't it make sense to start looking at least? 

As for Ogbuehi, I'll need to see it before I can change my mind. He struggled so much at TAMU at LT and was a completely different player when they moved him back to RT in favor of a guard at LT. 

[jowczarski]

(11-15-2015, 08:14 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: No chance of the draft offering solutions before then? We have to just accept the issues from here out basically?
This draft *should* have some quality centers (I like the kid from Mizzou a lot) given our incredibly lack of IOL depth, wouldn't it make sense to start looking at least? 

As for Ogbuehi, I'll need to see it before I can change my mind. He struggled so much at TAMU at LT and was a completely different player when they moved him back to RT in favor of a guard at LT. 

Fair point - but I doubt it'll be a high pick. The Bengals are fairly predictable with their draft strategy in the upper rounds - and Bodine was a fourth rounder himself. To me you're looking at a guy picked at about a similar spot. They could be look for a WR or (gasp!) a corner late in the first round. And even then, you're talking about replacing a a non-injured two-year starter who has chemistry with the QB and his teammates with a rookie. Now, if Hue's gone and the offense completely changes, maybe? 

[Joelist]

I thought we worked Boling at C in camp and such this offseason. either way I can't see them just putting up with the subpar play another season. We've been VERY lucky so far that no one we have played has been able to fully exploit his issues. Pittsburgh did partially and the effects of having your Center beat play after play really mess up an offense.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-15-2015, 11:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: I thought we worked Boling at C in camp and such this offseason. either way I can't see them just putting up with the subpar play another season. We've been VERY lucky so far that no one we have played has been able to fully exploit his issues. Pittsburgh did partially and the effects of having your Center beat play after play really mess up an offense.

Unless the team changes it's philosophy, it looks like Bodine is here for a while.  Although, I am one that feels an OL should be built from the inside outward.

[fredtoast]

(11-15-2015, 08:07 PM)jowczarski Wrote: *It makes sense to give Zeitler an extension this summer. They probably want to see him put together a healthy, full season. The game's best guard, Baltimore's Marshal Yanda signed a 4-year, $37.4 million this summer with $17.8 guaranteed ($9 million signing bonus). But, he's older. Obviously the fight will be over the signing bonus and up front money, but Zeitler is already guaranteed $8.07 million for next year - so the groundwork is set.

This.

I said it would be an option to wait until after the '16 season, but it would be best to get a long term deal done before next year.  The only reason would be if we didn't have the cap space this year, but I don't see any way that will be an issue.  Especially when you consider he is already guaranteed over $8 million.  I didn't realize the option on his rookie deal paid that much.

[fredtoast]

(11-15-2015, 08:07 PM)jowczarski Wrote: This team has learned that you have to have the bulls up front in order for your $96 million QB hit his targets,

It may have gotten lost in the details, but this was the point I wanted to make.  Mike Brown may have still been a little tight with his money back then, but he stepped up and paid our O-line very well to protect his previous $90 million QB.

And also gave big money to our All-Pro WR.

The single biggest factor in the decline of the '05 Bengals was the injuries to the O-line.  Braham only played 2 games after the '05 season.  In just one-and-a-half seasons (middle of '07) both Willie and Levi had suffered injuries from which they never fully recovered.

Maybe memories of what happened back then were a part of the reason they have used so many high draft picks on the O-line ever since.

[CageTheBengal]

I'm always for paying the o-line. Most underrated group in football.