We'll be back to contend in 2024

[Emeritus]

Don't worry we'll be back in 2024 for a run!
We'll be the best team in baseball in 2025 & win multiple championships again. Just have to be patient!
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CndGQYMpUlf/?igshid=OGQ2MjdiOTE=
   

[guyofthetiger]

I think it will take longer to rebuild. 2023 will be a bad year. 2024 will be a little better. 2025 might be the year.

[samhain]

They only contend again if Bob sells the team as soon as possible.

People don't get that contending is the goal of the fans, not the owner. The owner has the real impact.

To Bob, Phil and the local cartel controlling the Reds, they are nothing but a slush fund for making money off of a team that has strong historical ties to the community.

There is no intention to contend, therefore they will never contend.

I hope they sell or contract this team soon. It's getting insulting.

[Goalpost]

The blueprint is out there for smaller market teams. It's Tampa. They compete with the Red Sox, Yankees, Blue Jays etc with much smaller salaries and are more successful than the Reds. They have smaller salaries than even the Reds and yet they compete yearly. With Moose gone, and soon to be Votto next year, this will now become a very cheap and young team, albeit with more high end prospects than they have had in awhile.

[samhain]

(12-24-2022, 12:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: The blueprint is out there for smaller market teams.  It's Tampa.  They compete with the Red Sox, Yankees, Blue Jays etc with much smaller salaries and are more successful than the Reds.  They have smaller salaries than even the Reds and yet they compete yearly.  With Moose gone, and soon to be Votto next year, this will now become a very cheap and young team, albeit with more high end prospects than they have had in awhile.

Teams from smaller market winning is more anomaly than rule.  KC is the only team that really followed through with an actual title.

Houston and Atlanta built strong farm systems, but they also retained and spent when the young players matured.  Those rosters were supplemented with more established talent when the window opened.  I don't think the reds will spend.  They'll roll with youth, ride or die.  if it doesn't work they'll sell off and have another 3-5 years of unwatchable baseball.  They have to prioritize winning, which they do not, and they have to be smart, which they are not.  They suck so bad that any established outside FA will cost a Moose-style overpay.

Pittsburgh and Oakland are the teams to compare the Reds with.  Maybe Milwaukee.  Milwaukee has had some good rosters, but hasn't won a thing.  

Again, MLB needs to do one of 2 things:

1. Lock out the greedy players until they break and agree to a cap of 250M per.  Baseball is a fading major sport and will fall farther as long as almost half the league consists of joke rosters full of AAAA schmucks and "prospects", alongside aged-out former stars with contracts that can't be bailed on.  Don't fold like the owners did last year.  Be willing to eat some cost for the austerity of the game.  Note: This will not happen due to TV deals and desire for games to be played by advertisers.  

2. Make owners commit to a salary floor of 150 mil per year at minimum.  If you're rich enough to buy a team you need to be able to maintain it's consistent upkeep as a non-joke franchise.  What people like the Castellini's do is like a dude making 50K a year buying a 400K house.  he can get the loan and make payments, but the upkeep and maintenance will eventually eat him alive.  All he can do is sell and cash in on equity before it either falls into disrepair or breaks him financially.  

This will also mitigate any concessions from players (lol).  Pieces of garbage like Bob and Phil will be forced to spend more or sell to someone who will, elevating the overall league wide spend, and by virtue of that player's salaries as a whole.  

This fixes 2 major issues and puts the league on some sane trajectory.  

This will never happen, but natural causes will force change eventually.  Baseball will decline in popularity as fanbases lose interest in non-teams and it will cost them big money in advertising very soon.  Kids don't care about the sport anymore, and the portion of the country that really loves it (middle America) has to keep wiping spit from their faces from the owners that continue to cry poor and gaslight them.  Teams like the Reds, Pirates and A's shouldn't be allowed to exist.  

I'd but shibags like Bob and Phil in stocks for the taxpayers of Hamilton County to chuck rotten fruit at them.  Make them watch as the county blows up GABP to make room for something useful, and make the crooks pay every dime back to the citizens.  Make them walk from Covington to Dayton with a 200lb burlap sack full of worthless bobbleheads strapped to their backs on local 12 for all to watch.  it would be glorious.

[Emeritus]

(12-24-2022, 12:10 PM)Goalpost Wrote: The blueprint is out there for smaller market teams.  It's Tampa.  They compete with the Red Sox, Yankees, Blue Jays etc with much smaller salaries and are more successful than the Reds.  They have smaller salaries than even the Reds and yet they compete yearly.  With Moose gone, and soon to be Votto next year, this will now become a very cheap and young team, albeit with more high end prospects than they have had in awhile.

We have to get the kids up right away. The Reds still have quite a bit of talent down on the farm and young pitching developing. I'm wasn't a fan of this GM early on but he has a clear plan to build this thing. They'll be back but its going to take a few more years.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-24-2022, 01:06 PM)samhain Wrote: This will never happen, but natural causes will force change eventually.  Baseball will decline in popularity as fanbases lose interest in non-teams and it will cost them big money in advertising very soon.  Kids don't care about the sport anymore, and the portion of the country that really loves it (middle America) has to keep wiping spit from their faces from the owners that continue to cry poor and gaslight them.  Teams like the Reds, Pirates and A's shouldn't be allowed to exist.  

I'd but shibags like Bob and Phil in stocks for the taxpayers of Hamilton County to chuck rotten fruit at them.  Make them watch as the county blows up GABP to make room for something useful, and make the crooks pay every dime back to the citizens.  Make them walk from Covington to Dayton with a 200lb burlap sack full of worthless bobbleheads strapped to their backs on local 12 for all to watch.  it would be glorious.

I believe MLB is dying and I'm not sure it can be stopped. It will be a long slow death for sure. But I fully believe we're in the beginning stages.

When I was a kid you couldn't drive more than a mile or two in the summertime without seeing a game of baseball or at least wiffle ball going somewhere. Baseball is like a charging Elephant with a bullet in it's brain. 

[samhain]

(12-25-2022, 10:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I believe MLB is dying and I'm not sure it can be stopped. It will be a long slow death for sure. But I fully believe we're in the beginning stages.

When I was a kid you couldn't drive more than a mile or two in the summertime without seeing a game of baseball or at least wiffle ball going somewhere. Baseball is like a charging Elephant with a bullet in it's brain. 

Yeah, it sucks.  

Even youth baseball is an inhumane pressure cooker of insane parents and travel coaches that all think they're the bastard sons of Billy Martin and General Patton.  I don't know how kids even enjoy that stuff anymore.  Neighborhood baseball like we played really isn't a thing.  The fun aspect of it is basically dead on any real organized level.  It's a money machine for camps, coaches, and tournaments, all selling the idea of college scholarships and MLB careers to extremely naive parents.  You could pay for your kid's college with the cumulative amount that some of these people spend on lessons and 365 day a year travel.  

Even a kid that loves it can't compete if he doesn't have parents that can financially support him through lessons that run thousands over time and grind them down to the nub.  The ones that can either make it or hate baseball before they hit high school.

The competitive balance in the league will kill it.  300 mil payrolls vs 50-70 mil payrolls is like the Cowboys of the 90's ripping through they league with a roster that was only limited by Jerry Jones' pocketbook.  You wound up with a nation full of Cowboys bandwagoners and a bunch of other teams, mainly Buffalo, cycling though to get pounded in the Super Bowl.  Then the salary cap came along, the Cowboys drifted back to league average, and other teams had a shot based more on the actual football acumen of the front office, a department in which Jerry was sorely lacking.  

And what happened?  The league became a juggernaut of advertising money and must-see TV on a level of no other sport in this country.  Everyone thought they had a chance, because they kind of did in the grand scheme.  I love seeing the NFL crush other leagues in earnings and viewing.  It's the only remotely level playing field in terms of financial structure, and it rakes in cash.   I want players to get paid, but the day thy get the upper hand on owners is the day the league starts to die.

[samhain]

The Reds can only continue to sell hope based on prospect influx for so long. Teams that have tanked correctly have supplemented that young talent and retained it when it proved out at the MLB level. I don't think the Reds can do that as the Braves and Astros have. They are too damn cheap and greedy, and most importantly; stupid.

There's a more than strong possibility that all of these prospects will be pissed away as the last group was and as the ones in Pittsburgh are repeatedly. Fans should stop going to games and do what they can to drive the Castellinis out of power. Stop watching, stop listening, stop buying stuff, stop going to games. It's not a huge impact, but fans should do their part to give them the finger. They make enough money from not paying a legitimate roster. They don't need ours.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-26-2022, 11:13 AM)samhain Wrote: Yeah, it sucks.  

Even youth baseball is an inhumane pressure cooker of insane parents and travel coaches that all think they're the bastard sons of Billy Martin and General Patton.  I don't know how kids even enjoy that stuff anymore.  Neighborhood baseball like we played really isn't a thing.  The fun aspect of it is basically dead on any real organized level.  It's a money machine for camps, coaches, and tournaments, all selling the idea of college scholarships and MLB careers to extremely naive parents.  You could pay for your kid's college with the cumulative amount that some of these people spend on lessons and 365 day a year travel.  

Even a kid that loves it can't compete if he doesn't have parents that can financially support him through lessons that run thousands over time and grind them down to the nub.  The ones that can either make it or hate baseball before they hit high school.

The competitive balance in the league will kill it.  300 mil payrolls vs 50-70 mil payrolls is like the Cowboys of the 90's ripping through they league with a roster that was only limited by Jerry Jones' pocketbook.  You wound up with a nation full of Cowboys bandwagoners and a bunch of other teams, mainly Buffalo, cycling though to get pounded in the Super Bowl.  Then the salary cap came along, the Cowboys drifted back to league average, and other teams had a shot based more on the actual football acumen of the front office, a department in which Jerry was sorely lacking.  

And what happened?  The league became a juggernaut of advertising money and must-see TV on a level of no other sport in this country.  Everyone thought they had a chance, because they kind of did in the grand scheme.  I love seeing the NFL crush other leagues in earnings and viewing.  It's the only remotely level playing field in terms of financial structure, and it rakes in cash.   I want players to get paid, but the day thy get the upper hand on owners is the day the league starts to die.

A work buddy of mine has his two young boys in baseball. He's buying them $200 hand made gloves. $300+ dollar bats. Playing in this league, that leauge like 8 months a year. They're like 9 and 11. I told him he's nucking futs.

I've told him several times you're taking all the fun out of it for the kids. They're going to be burnt out before they reach H.S. But i guess he has Johnny Bench and Pete Rose dreams for them ?

[samhain]

(12-26-2022, 11:50 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: A work buddy of mine has his two young boys in baseball. He's buying them $200 hand made gloves. $300+ dollar bats. Playing in this league, that leauge like 8 months a year. They're like 9 and 11. I told him he's nucking futs.

I've told him several times you're taking all the fun out of it for the kids. They're going to be burnt out before they reach H.S. But i guess he has Johnny Bench and Pete Rose dreams for them ?

My 9 year-old loved baseball.  He watches it, he plays baseball video games and he liked playing.  I def spent my fair share on high-dollar equipment.  He's a big kid and he's smart and super coachable, so long as I'm not the coach, lol. He also likes soccer, martial arts and going to Bengals games with me.  He wouldn't be able to do any of that stuff if he got on the travel ball/private lesson path, so guess what sport he doesn't play anymore?  it was by his choice, but I'm not forcing my kid to do anything at the expense of every other thing he enjoys at that age.  

We had a kid on his 7U team that was absolutely a special talent.  Just different in his ability and understanding.  Fast with a huge arm, great swing, and not really even all that big.  He was a machine.  His dad was the coach and stayed on his ass for 2 straight hours every single practice.  Just brutal to the point where it annoyed other parents.  then they'd pack up and go to other games later in the day, and they played year round.  One day I asked the kid what team he liked in MLB.  He said he didn't know and didn't really watch baseball or know about many players.  I'm not even sure the kid even liked baseball, from the way he talked.  Just a disaster waiting to happen.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-26-2022, 12:33 PM)samhain Wrote: My 9 year-old loved baseball.  He watches it, he plays baseball video games and he liked playing.  I def spent my fair share on high-dollar equipment.  He's a big kid and he's smart and super coachable, so long as I'm not the coach, lol. He also likes soccer, martial arts and going to Bengals games with me.  He wouldn't be able to do any of that stuff if he got on the travel ball/private lesson path, so guess what sport he doesn't play anymore?  it was by his choice, but I'm not forcing my kid to do anything at the expense of every other thing he enjoys at that age.  

We had a kid on his 7U team that was absolutely a special talent.  Just different in his ability and understanding.  Fast with a huge arm, great swing, and not really even all that big.  He was a machine.  His dad was the coach and stayed on his ass for 2 straight hours every single practice.  Just brutal to the point where it annoyed other parents.  then they'd pack up and go to other games later in the day, and they played year round.  One day I asked the kid what team he liked in MLB.  He said he didn't know and didn't really watch baseball or know about many players.  I'm not even sure the kid even liked baseball, from the way he talked.  Just a disaster waiting to happen.

That's the key. My buddy is making them do it round the clock. "i bought this batting cage time and that's a $350 bat" "Get you butt in there and swing"

You can't turn a fun time game into a full time job when a child is 9. Does a high dollar bat really make a kid hit better ? There's zero need to put them under pressure at that age. They're going to chase the occasional butterfly in the outfield, it's fine. Teach them to pay attention with a calm voice and a smile. It will get you much further than cussing and yelling.

I'd bet he'll drive them right out of the game.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(12-26-2022, 11:13 AM)samhain Wrote: Yeah, it sucks.  

Even youth baseball is an inhumane pressure cooker of insane parents and travel coaches that all think they're the bastard sons of Billy Martin and General Patton.  I don't know how kids even enjoy that stuff anymore.  Neighborhood baseball like we played really isn't a thing.  The fun aspect of it is basically dead on any real organized level.  It's a money machine for camps, coaches, and tournaments, all selling the idea of college scholarships and MLB careers to extremely naive parents.  You could pay for your kid's college with the cumulative amount that some of these people spend on lessons and 365 day a year travel.  

Even a kid that loves it can't compete if he doesn't have parents that can financially support him through lessons that run thousands over time and grind them down to the nub.  The ones that can either make it or hate baseball before they hit high school.

The competitive balance in the league will kill it.  300 mil payrolls vs 50-70 mil payrolls is like the Cowboys of the 90's ripping through they league with a roster that was only limited by Jerry Jones' pocketbook.  You wound up with a nation full of Cowboys bandwagoners and a bunch of other teams, mainly Buffalo, cycling though to get pounded in the Super Bowl.  Then the salary cap came along, the Cowboys drifted back to league average, and other teams had a shot based more on the actual football acumen of the front office, a department in which Jerry was sorely lacking.  

And what happened?  The league became a juggernaut of advertising money and must-see TV on a level of no other sport in this country.  Everyone thought they had a chance, because they kind of did in the grand scheme.  I love seeing the NFL crush other leagues in earnings and viewing.  It's the only remotely level playing field in terms of financial structure, and it rakes in cash.   I want players to get paid, but the day thy get the upper hand on owners is the day the league starts to die.

I quit coaching because of insane parents. I was 22 years old, took time out of my life with no children on the team so I held no biases. Some guy wanted his kid to play third base because he played third base when he was a kid. I told him that when I tried out every kid at every position over our first three practices, so they could learn the roles of each position, his kid graded in the bottom half of every infield spot. Compared to the rest of the team, his son was a poor fielder with a weak arm and he couldn't hit very well. That guy saw none of that and after a few weeks of constant loud remarks from the stands, he totally flipped out on me in the parking lot after a game where his son was just a sub with one at bat. I went over to the food shack, called the league President and told him that I'm leaving the gear at the food shack and he can find someone else to coach the team. I really wanted to kick the guy's ass but not in front of my team. I had other problem parents making comments from the stands but that was the last straw with me and I've never been back.

I saw one of my former coaches a few years afterwards and he thought for sure that I would be in coaching after my playing days. I told him that I tried, but I'm not built to take that kind of abuse. He reflected back . . . "Yyyyyeah. Now that I think about it. You were very much more of "a pat on the back" kind of guy and not much of "a kick in the ass" kind of guy. I see your point."

[grampahol]

(12-24-2022, 01:06 PM)samhain Wrote: Teams from smaller market winning is more anomaly than rule.  KC is the only team that really followed through with an actual title.

Houston and Atlanta built strong farm systems, but they also retained and spent when the young players matured.  Those rosters were supplemented with more established talent when the window opened.  I don't think the reds will spend.  They'll roll with youth, ride or die.  if it doesn't work they'll sell off and have another 3-5 years of unwatchable baseball.  They have to prioritize winning, which they do not, and they have to be smart, which they are not.  They suck so bad that any established outside FA will cost a Moose-style overpay.

Pittsburgh and Oakland are the teams to compare the Reds with.  Maybe Milwaukee.  Milwaukee has had some good rosters, but hasn't won a thing.  

Again, MLB needs to do one of 2 things:

1. Lock out the greedy players until they break and agree to a cap of 250M per.  Baseball is a fading major sport and will fall farther as long as almost half the league consists of joke rosters full of AAAA schmucks and "prospects", alongside aged-out former stars with contracts that can't be bailed on.  Don't fold like the owners did last year.  Be willing to eat some cost for the austerity of the game.  Note: This will not happen due to TV deals and desire for games to be played by advertisers.  

2. Make owners commit to a salary floor of 150 mil per year at minimum.  If you're rich enough to buy a team you need to be able to maintain it's consistent upkeep as a non-joke franchise.  What people like the Castellini's do is like a dude making 50K a year buying a 400K house.  he can get the loan and make payments, but the upkeep and maintenance will eventually eat him alive.  All he can do is sell and cash in on equity before it either falls into disrepair or breaks him financially.  

This will also mitigate any concessions from players (lol).  Pieces of garbage like Bob and Phil will be forced to spend more or sell to someone who will, elevating the overall league wide spend, and by virtue of that player's salaries as a whole.  

This fixes 2 major issues and puts the league on some sane trajectory.  

This will never happen, but natural causes will force change eventually.  Baseball will decline in popularity as fanbases lose interest in non-teams and it will cost them big money in advertising very soon.  Kids don't care about the sport anymore, and the portion of the country that really loves it (middle America) has to keep wiping spit from their faces from the owners that continue to cry poor and gaslight them.  Teams like the Reds, Pirates and A's shouldn't be allowed to exist.  

I'd but shibags like Bob and Phil in stocks for the taxpayers of Hamilton County to chuck rotten fruit at them.  Make them watch as the county blows up GABP to make room for something useful, and make the crooks pay every dime back to the citizens.  Make them walk from Covington to Dayton with a 200lb burlap sack full of worthless bobbleheads strapped to their backs on local 12 for all to watch.  it would be glorious.

Too complicated. Just hire a hit man.. All Reds fans would chip in.. 

[Emeritus]

Call me me crazy but I believe they'll win 60 games.
Every blog site thinks that we could possibly lose north of 100 games but thats not the Reds I know. I will say that this is the year for the kids to have fun and that they will. I'll still remain firm that the coach will be fired after next season.The one thing that you'll carry into the 2024 season is the pitching. Now by any means do I expect it to be as overpowering as it will be but you'll start to see guys find the dominance sporadically.

[samhain]

(12-29-2022, 10:24 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

Call me me crazy but I believe they'll win 60 games.
Every blog site thinks that we could possibly lose north of 100 games but thats not the Reds I know. I will say that this is the year for the kids to have fun and that they will. I'll still remain firm that the coach will be fired after next season.The one thing that you'll carry into the 2024 season is the pitching. Now by any means do I expect it to be as overpowering as it will be but you'll start to see guys find the dominance sporadically.

I guess.

I just don't see how you lose half a season of Castillo and Mahle and win more games.

Sucks, too because tanking doesn't guarantee a good draft pick in baseball, and even if it did the 1 overall takes forever to get to the bigs.

Think I might down low root for San Diego this year.

[Emeritus]

(12-30-2022, 02:40 AM)samhain Wrote: I guess.

I just don't see how you lose half a season of Castillo and Mahle and win more games.

Sucks, too because tanking doesn't guarantee a good draft pick in baseball, and even if it did the 1 overall takes forever to get to the bigs.

Think I might down low root for San Diego this year.

I rooted for the Houston Astros because of Dusty Baker so I understand. Lots of fans have just walked away but I continue to fight although difficult.

[TecmoBengals]

Although I appreciate the optimism, I'll cautiously wait for the '24 season & how it plays out before I believe the Reds can contend.

[samhain]

(12-30-2022, 08:07 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

I rooted for the Houston Astros because of Dusty Baker so I understand. Lots of fans have just walked away but I continue to fight although difficult.

They've dropped the budget about as low as it can go, and next year Moose and Votto will be off the books.  That will drop it even lower.  My barometer for them actually wanting to compete is what they do when that ridiculous amount of pay flex opens up, even though they already have a lot.  If they supplement these rookies with some solid big league talent, then they may regain some credibility with me.  

[TecmoBengals]

(01-01-2023, 12:12 PM)samhain Wrote: They've dropped the budget about as low as it can go, and next year Moose and Votto will be off the books.  That will drop it even lower.  My barometer for them actually wanting to compete is what they do when that ridiculous amount of pay flex opens up, even though they already have a lot.  If they supplement these rookies with some solid big league talent, then they may regain some credibility with me.  

I wish this upcoming payroll flexibility was really about ownership selling the team. A purchase might be more attractive with all the big salaries off the books.