Lou’s Future in the Jungle

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-12-2023, 10:38 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: LeBeau was a horrible HC, probably the worst in Bengal history.

"He was the head coach of the Cincinnati Bengals from 2001 until the 2002 season, during which time the Bengals went 8-24-0. During his career he was a head coach for two seasons. "




 

(01-12-2023, 10:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Still a better first two year record than Zac Taylor's 6-25-1.
 
Clearly LeBeau needed a couple more years (and Joe Burrow).  

We're talking coordinator in the topic at hand though, not the OPs position on HC. In no way do I consider Lou a HC. 

Dick LeBeau was not a HC either, but is widely regarded as one of the best DCs in league history. That's not up for debate.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-13-2023, 01:28 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Can't wait to see the passing concepts and route trees Lou would come up with for the offense, and who would run the defense?  You going to slide Darren Simmons over to run the D?  Maybe he would install a wide tackle six?

Seven diamond 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-13-2023, 11:05 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: A lot of the turnaround could also be attributed to Zac being allowed to have a bigger voice in matters with Katie running the show, than other coaches were under Mike Brown.

I think that's a huge benefit for our current staff. I like what they're doing, but I feel a lot of people are sleeping on the work Katie has done. 

[*Synric*]

(01-13-2023, 10:42 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I wouldn't care if they ran one play, over and over, never ran a play action or screen, as long as they are putting points on the board. That's all that matters. What they are doing is working, you don't fix what's not broken. 

No but you can always improve to create a better product it's called innovation.

Zac has done a great job as a leader though. Building the kinda family culture you love seeing as a fan. Remember in 2019 when we were hearing "We are going to draft and bring in captains and leaders" well we are seeing the fruits of that.

This offseason I dont expect much coaching changes but I hope they bring an offensive consultant that has more experience in the spread air raid that Burrow wants to run. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 11:04 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Doesn't matter if they were good outside of Zimmer's scheme, because they played in that scheme and were good in it. ZImmer called Peko in his prime THE best NT in the game. Hall was outstanding. You wouldn't say Dunlap in his prime was a superior talent? 
Look, I'm not saying Zimmer wasn't good, he was one of my favorite coaches. That said, I don't believe his players played as hard for him as Lou's do for him. And I truly think Lou and his coaches are much better at developing the backups all the way down the depth chart than any Bengal coach ever on either side of the ball.

What's Zimmer supposed to say? His guy sucks? Lol... We know that's not true because he wasn't Vince Wilfork, or Haloti Ngata, or Casey Hampton (off the top of my head). Peko wasn't even a top-2 NT in his own division. He wasn't bad, but he wasn't great, and he's certainly nowhere near DJ Reader good.

Compared to Hendrickson? Dunlap was good and started young and managed to stay relevant for a long time, but he never had the ceiling performance that Hendrickson is showing. In 3 seasons as a starter Hendrickson already has more double digit sack seasons than Dunlap, and it's spanning two defenses/DCs so it's not even a Lou thing.

How can we possibly measure if a player is playing harder for one guy or another? As I said, Lou's defense has been below average in scoring defense in 3/4 years. Zimmer's was top-10 in 4/6 years. If Zimmer's guys weren't playing hard and still managed to regularly get top-10 defenses then Zimmer is even better than I thought.

What? You talked about the Fisher Price DL, well all three of those guys, Michael Johnson, Carlos Dunlap, and Geno Atkins, were all backups that were developed from 3rd, 2nd, and 4th rounds. Not to mention the tons of rejects and has-beens who either found their career reinvented or rejuvenated here under Zimmer's scheme. Lol... as for "ever on either side of the ball"... Bob Bratkowski stopped evolving with the NFL, but his first year here was when Chad, Housh, Rudi all got drafted and started being developed. Willie also hit a whole new level when Brat came around, too.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-13-2023, 11:05 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: A lot of the turnaround could also be attributed to Zac being allowed to have a bigger voice in matters with Katie running the show, than other coaches were under Mike Brown.

No doubt

[Soonerpeace]

(01-13-2023, 11:07 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Duke had A LOT of success before ZT got here. 

Obviously he’s pretty good. Obviously the Browns made Duke’s job easier by being more receptive and aggressive in FA. I’m assuming ownership, Zac, and Duke all got on one page. But it WAS Zac who went after high character and hard working players. But there’s been too much success in FA and the draft since Zac arrived to not believe he had a huge impact

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 11:07 AM)Wyche Wrote: I'll close with this though.... playing meaningful games in January and February, who's defense would you rather have out there and have the most faith in? Zimmer's or Lou's? Just look at the Raiders game....do we make a game sealing INT with Zims bunch, or choke away the game? I'm going with this unit, regular season stats be damned. 

Are we giving both the ability to sign outside FAs like DJ Reader, Trey Hendrickson, Larry Ogunjobi, Vonn Bell, and Mike Hilton? Or is one of them stuck with Pat Sims/Tank Johnson, Michael Johnson, Domata Peko, Nedu Ndukwe/Chris Crocker/Roy Williams? Because that makes a HUGE difference. I can't reiterate enough that the last 3 years have seen probably around 8 of the 10 largest defensive outside free agent contracts the Bengals have ever given out. The Bengals under Zimmer got Antwan Odom and I honestly think the 2nd largest signing after that in 6 years was Nate Clements.

Are we giving them both Joe Burrow on the other side to help them? Because Burrow had 70.6% completion, 244 yards, 2 TD/0 INT, 110.4 QB Rating in that game while throwing to the best WR trio the Bengals have EVER had.

If you give both Zimmer and Anarumo the exact same level of talent to work with? I'm taking Zimmer. He's had a top-5 defense with 3 different teams. His defenses won a playoff game while Kirk Cousins was their QB for one year and Case Keenum was their QB for another, and were a missed 27 yard FG from winning one with Teddy Bridgewater at QB another year. Winning in the playoffs was a Marvin culture problem.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 11:46 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Obviously he’s pretty good. Obviously the Browns made Duke’s job easier by being more receptive and aggressive in FA. I’m assuming ownership, Zac, and Duke all got on one page. But it WAS Zac who went after high character and hard working players. But there’s been too much success in FA and the draft since Zac arrived to not believe he had a huge impact

Spend money and sign actually good FAs, and you get good results. Whodathunkit? In the past they MIGHT sign 1 guy like Trae Waynes (but even he was too highly paid to be a past FA signing). If the signing failed? Well, I guess you got your FA for the decade, because now it's time to turtle up and treat quality Free Agents like they're poison again. Hope you can make lemonade from dogshit for the next couple years.

The Bengals draft success lately is largely a product of picking 1st and 5th overall. The last time they drafted in the top-5 they got AJ Green and Andy Dalton in the 1st and 2nd. The time before that they got Carson Palmer and Eric Steinbach in the 1st and 2nd. The time before that they got Justin Smith and Chad Johnson in the 1st and 2nd. Having top-5 picks makes it easier to have good drafts as that's where the blue chip guys are in the 1st round and the 2nd round that high is nearly a second 1st rounder. Being good at winning football games means harder drafts. It's why the Patriots don't traditionally kill it in the top of their drafts.

Being absolutely terrible for a couple years and getting real high draft picks while prying open 'ol Mikey's pocketbook for FA is why it's been better. Look at 2019 and 2022 drafts for a better example of what happens when you don't have top-5 picks and the Bengals starting defense coming into this year was 6/11ths outside FA signings with 5 of those 6 getting notable amounts of money.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-13-2023, 10:20 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: If true, then all those DC interviews were pointless because Zac wasn't going to hire them anyway. I don't remember it going down like that though, as IIRC, potential DC's were turning Zac down. But I could be wrong.

No he was encouraged to get an experienced DC and even former head coach ( Zac was admittedly inexperienced and he himself agreed) but he was turned down by several fitting that prescription) I’m saying he had a tremendous respect for Lou and finally got the okay to go with him.

[Soonerpeace]

(01-13-2023, 12:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Spend money and sign actually good FAs, and you get good results. Whodathunkit? In the past they MIGHT sign 1 guy like Trae Waynes (but even he was too highly paid to be a past FA signing). If the signing failed? Well, I guess you got your FA for the decade, because now it's time to turtle up and treat quality Free Agents like they're poison again. Hope you can make lemonade from dogshit for the next couple years.

The Bengals draft success lately is largely a product of picking 1st and 5th overall. The last time they drafted in the top-5 they got AJ Green and Andy Dalton in the 1st and 2nd. The time before that they got Carson Palmer and Eric Steinbach in the 1st and 2nd. The time before that they got Justin Smith and Chad Johnson in the 1st and 2nd. Having top-5 picks makes it easier to have good drafts as that's where the blue chip guys are in the 1st round and the 2nd round that high is nearly a second 1st rounder. Being good at winning football games means harder drafts. It's why the Patriots don't traditionally kill it in the top of their drafts.

Being absolutely terrible for a couple years and getting real high draft picks while prying open 'ol Mikey's pocketbook for FA is why it's been better. Look at 2019 and 2022 drafts for a better example of what happens when you don't have top-5 picks and the Bengals starting defense coming into this year was 6/11ths outside FA signings with 5 of those 6 getting notable amounts of money.

That’s true but outside the early picks that’s not entirely true thinking it’s a no fail process. Picking Higgins and Logan Wilson, Volson, CTB, McPherson, and others were good picks.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 12:21 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That’s true but outside the early picks that’s not entirely true thinking it’s a no fail process. Picking Higgins and Logan Wilson, Volson, CTB, McPherson, and others were good picks.

Never said it's a no fail process. I just said that's where the blue chip guys traditionally are. The whole draft is a gamble, but having real real high picks give you better odds. Case and point is the first guy you brought up. Higgins was the 33rd pick in the draft, nearly an extra 1st being that bad and getting a pick that high. In a normal bad year rather than a terrible year we'd be picking somewhere around Laviska Shenault or KJ Hamler in the 2nd round. Or in a year where they were 1-and-done in the playoffs it'd be more like Van Jefferson or Dinzel Mims.

We don't know if Volson or CTB are good picks yet or not, and Wilson is pretty good but seemingly always hurt and also came in the year where the Bengals had the 1st pick in every round, so he's very nearly a 2nd round pick. Logan Wilson was the Bengals 3rd round pick at 65, and the Bengals 2nd round pick in 2022 was at 60 and 3rd round pick was 95. That's a huge difference in number of players taken off the board. They could be, but unless the guy is incredibly good from Day 1 (Chase) or just absolutely next level terrible (Ogbuehi) you can't really properly judge a draft until after their 3rd year. It's why I didn't really participate in that 2022 Draft thread other than posting their ratings without comment on the actual players. We need to see if guys improve in 2023.

[Graphicguy]

(01-13-2023, 12:15 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: No he was encouraged to get an experienced DC and even former head coach ( Zac was admittedly inexperienced and he himself agreed) but he was turned down by several fitting that prescription) I’m saying he had a tremendous respect for Lou and finally got the okay to go with him.

Good points.  Not to forget, Taylor was turned down by Dom Capers, Dennis Allen, and Jack DelRio, before settling on Lou.

Gotta wonder how the rest of those guys who turned us down feels about their decision now?

[Soonerpeace]

(01-13-2023, 12:49 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Never said it's a no fail process. I just said that's where the blue chip guys traditionally are. The whole draft is a gamble, but having real real high picks give you better odds. Case and point is the first guy you brought up. Higgins was the 33rd pick in the draft, nearly an extra 1st being that bad and getting a pick that high. In a normal bad year rather than a terrible year we'd be picking somewhere around Laviska Shenault or KJ Hamler in the 2nd round. Or in a year where they were 1-and-done in the playoffs it'd be more like Van Jefferson or Dinzel Mims.

We don't know if Volson or CTB are good picks yet or not, and Wilson is pretty good but seemingly always hurt and also came in the year where the Bengals had the 1st pick in every round, so he's very nearly a 2nd round pick. Logan Wilson was the Bengals 3rd round pick at 65, and the Bengals 2nd round pick in 2022 was at 60 and 3rd round pick was 95. That's a huge difference in number of players taken off the board. They could be, but unless the guy is incredibly good from Day 1 (Chase) or just absolutely next level terrible (Ogbuehi) you can't really properly judge a draft until after their 3rd year. It's why I didn't really participate in that 2022 Draft thread other than posting their ratings without comment on the actual players. We need to see if guys improve in 2023.

And I’m not disagreeing that it’s hard to turnaround a franchise like this w/o major help via great draft opportunities. But several teams had early picks and didn’t move the needle during that time. So having early picks is no guarantee. But I’m simply not a subscriber to your rationale on Higgins, Logan Wilson, Volson, CTB, and others as being lucky.

[Graphicguy]

I’m mildly surprised Marvin Lewis isn’t mentioned anywhere for a HC/Co-Ordinator’s position. I liked him when he was here. And, he pulled this franchise out of the pits and made it (mostly) perennial contenders.

I know his last season here was really wonky. But still, he could help a team like Houston or AZ, or even DC with the Browns.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 01:28 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: And I’m not disagreeing that it’s hard to turnaround a franchise like this w/o major help via great draft opportunities. But several teams had early picks and didn’t move the needle during that time. So having early picks is no guarantee. But I’m simply not a subscriber to your rationale on Higgins, Logan Wilson, Volson, CTB, and others as being lucky.

Never said they're lucky, please don't make up things I didn't say. I said the draft is a gamble and that the odds of that gamble are increased when you pick extremely highly. 

The Jags had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and now they're in the playoffs. Obviously it helps when you find a QB with one of your picks, like the Bengals did with Burrow.
The Jets had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and were 7-4 before collapsing because of injuries and missing on their QB.
The Browns had back-to-back years with top-5 draft picks and it led to them winning a playoff game despite missing on their QB.

That's 4 teams (including the Bengals) in just in the last 6 years. It's not all that uncommon. It's no guarantee, but it helps a TON.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

As Sunset and others said, defensive minded coaches going on and being Head Coaches is kind of a thing of the past.

Which is great for us and keeping Lou around for years to come. Brian could go somewhere if he is wanted and be a full
on Offensive Coordinator maybe. He is the coach I could see leaving maybe. Or Betcher could go somewhere and be a full
on Defensive Coordinator for someone, this guy is also a great Defensive mind just like Lou.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-13-2023, 12:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Are we giving both the ability to sign outside FAs like DJ Reader, Trey Hendrickson, Larry Ogunjobi, Vonn Bell, and Mike Hilton? Or is one of them stuck with Pat Sims/Tank Johnson, Michael Johnson, Domata Peko, Nedu Ndukwe/Chris Crocker/Roy Williams? Because that makes a HUGE difference. I can't reiterate enough that the last 3 years have seen probably around 8 of the 10 largest defensive outside free agent contracts the Bengals have ever given out. The Bengals under Zimmer got Antwan Odom and I honestly think the 2nd largest signing after that in 6 years was Nate Clements.

Are we giving them both Joe Burrow on the other side to help them? Because Burrow had 70.6% completion, 244 yards, 2 TD/0 INT, 110.4 QB Rating in that game while throwing to the best WR trio the Bengals have EVER had.

If you give both Zimmer and Anarumo the exact same level of talent to work with? I'm taking Zimmer. He's had a top-5 defense with 3 different teams. His defenses won a playoff game while Kirk Cousins was their QB for one year and Case Keenum was their QB for another, and were a missed 27 yard FG from winning one with Teddy Bridgewater at QB another year. Winning in the playoffs was a Marvin culture problem.

Well, Zim had a lot of talent on the field in 13 when they let Danny Woodhead gash em. So let's say Zimmer's 2013 unit vs Lou's D the last two years. 

I'm not necessarily talking QBs on the team, or anything relative to what the offense is doing. It's all about, if you need a stop to get the W, do you trust this current Bengals D to get the stop/turnover, or the ones that played while Mike was here? 

Side bar, I often wonder if the Odom/Bryant deals aren't what made Mikey so afraid of FA. Speaking of that culture...these coaches have helped establish the current model. They deserve a little credit, IMO.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-13-2023, 03:18 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, Zim had a lot of talent on the field in 13 when they let Danny Woodhead gash em. So let's say Zimmer's 2013 unit vs Lou's D the last two years. 

I'm not necessarily talking QBs on the team, or anything relative to what the offense is doing. It's all about, if you need a stop to get the W, do you trust this current Bengals D to get the stop/turnover, or the ones that played while Mike was here? 

Side bar, I often wonder if the Odom/Bryant deals aren't what made Mikey so afraid of FA. Speaking of that culture...these coaches have helped establish the current model. They deserve a little credit, IMO.

They did? Brandon Thompson, Chris Crocker, Rey Maualuga, Dre Kirkpatrick all started that game and weren't good. Thompson and Crocker never started another game in the NFL afterwards. Domata Peko, Michael Johnson, and George Iloka were just okay.

Atkins tore his knee in 2013. That defense was pretty much just Dunlap, Burfict, Reggie, Pacman, and a bunch of meh, and even Dunlap wasn't as good as Hendrickson. So only 3/11 starters in that 2013 playoff game were more talented than their current counterparts.

Hendrickson > Dunlap
Hubbard > M Johnson
Hill > Thompson
Reader > Peko

Wilson < Burfict
Pratt > Maualuga

Apple = Kirkpatrick
CTB < A Jones
Hilton > Crocker
Bates < Nelson
Bell > Iloka

I think that's a pretty non-controversial rating.

- - - - - -

I 100% also believe that's part of what made him shy away, but he wasn't big on it even prior to then.

I give the FA credit more to Katie. I doubt Zac was the first coach to ever ask Mike for FA $. The timing of it aligned with Mike Brown taking a step back (not gone, but a step back) in running the team and Katie and Troy taking a step forward. They F'd up the Whit situation, but they certainly opened up the FA pocketbook.

[*rfaulk34*]

(01-13-2023, 09:55 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think Lou can run a team better and hire the right coaches and stratagize better. As for play calling, I don't like Zac making the calls. Remember, nobody wanted to work for Zac until Lou came and created the best bengals D ever and he's done way better with his side than Zac and Callahan put together.

Tell me you don't know how to football without telling me you don't know how to football.