Coaching changes

[XenoMorph]

looks like no Offensive Coaching changes... But after watching the offense stall out over and over... is that a good thing?

[Essex Johnson]

(01-31-2023, 11:47 PM)jj22 Wrote: There’s a likelihood we are going to lose at least 1 coach to a promotion. And on offense I’d be willing to lose one to bring in a fresh set of eyes and ideas. The foundation is in place so they could weather the storm. So with the likelihood Lou will stay put. That opens up some conjecture on who is out there worth bringing in.

Who are some of the names left out there worthy of bringing in as replacements for OC (which will likely be Pitcher promoted into the position) opening up QBC. Who could come in this late to coach QB’s. And what About Wideouts. Should we look to college coaches for fresh innovations or experienced out of work coaches like Hue and Haley. Side note. I thought Haley was a top coordinator.  Haley had good offenses. He had Baker looking good the last we herd of him.

Elephant in the room in Oline.. im ready for a fresh set of eyes there,, we have under performed under Pollack.. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-14-2023, 01:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Elephant in the room in Oline.. im ready for a fresh set of eyes there,, we have under performed under Pollack.. 

Can’t just keep replacing the OL coach every couple of years and hoping for the best. There is a fundamental problem with the way this teams drafts OL. We’ve used a ton of draft capital on the position in the last handful of years , including premium picks (1st & 2nd round), and have very little to show for it. As good as Duke and the FO is at the skill positions, LB, secondary, etc, they absolutely blow at picking OL. We haven’t really had a true hit on one for about a decade (probably Zeitler or Boling). That needs to change. And that’s not on the coaching.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-01-2023, 01:04 PM)jj22 Wrote: After 4 years we need some fresh voices on the Offensive side of the ball. Defense has had good turnover at the LBC position, Secondary position, and DL position while maintaining the core system. And the system has grown and evolved.

Not so much on the Offensive side. Oline coach was fired, and not sure how much new the new RB coach brought experience and idea wise. Troy was already here when he took over for Urban and he comes from Zac's Nebraska system so they are already aligned with the same philosophy's and playbook.

That’s funny. Troy coached with Frost who doesn’t run anything like Zac. Zac played not coached at Nebraska 16-17 years ago and you think they are playing the same? Our problem on offense is 1000% the OL.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-14-2023, 08:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Can’t just keep replacing the OL coach every couple of years and hoping for the best. There is a fundamental problem with the way this teams drafts OL. We’ve used a ton of draft capital on the position in the last handful of years , including premium picks (1st & 2nd round), and have very little to show for it. As good as Duke and the FO is at the skill positions, LB, secondary, etc, they absolutely blow at picking OL. We haven’t really had a true hit on one for about a decade (probably Zeitler or Boling). That needs to change. And that’s not on the coaching.

You can't just  blame players either, coaches are expected to also improve players and line communication has less to do with talent and more with coaching and we have not been strong there .   Pollack has not been successful since 2016 as oline coach that is the worry to me, and he has been our  coach 3 out of last 5 yrs here with little improvement,  this next season we have to make major strides or we need a change  for sure. I hope he finally proves me wrong.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-14-2023, 11:03 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: You can't just  blame players either, coaches are expected to also improve players and line communication has less to do with talent and more with coaching and we have not been strong there .   Pollack has not been successful since 2016 as oline coach that is the worry to me, and he has been our  coach 3 out of last 5 yrs here with little improvement,  this next season we have to make major strides or we need a change  for sure. I hope he finally proves me wrong.

He was working with absolute trash until this season, and lo and behold once they started to gel they were actually playing well. Rfaulk has posted the numbers here multiple times, there was a long stretch during the 10 game winning streak where they were only giving up about 2 sacks per game. There. Was. Improvement. The run game was inconsistent, but that’s another thing that far predates Pollack’s time here.

Look, we probably would have gone to back-to-back Super Bowls had 3 starters on the OL not gone down at the end of the season. You don’t replace a coach that helped win consecutive division titles and got to consecutive AFCCG. Especially with a patchwork OL.

We’re thankfully returning our entire coaching staff, and that’s a very good thing.

[Frank Booth]

(02-14-2023, 11:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He was working with absolute trash until this season, and lo and behold once they started to gel they were actually playing well. Rfaulk has posted the numbers here multiple times, there was a long stretch during the 10 game winning streak where they were only giving up about 2 sacks per game. There. Was. Improvement. The run game was inconsistent, but that’s another thing that far predates Pollack’s time here.

Look, we probably would have gone to back-to-back Super Bowls had 3 starters on the OL not gone down at the end of the season. You don’t replace a coach that helped win consecutive division titles and got to consecutive AFCCG. Especially with a patchwork OL.

We’re thankfully returning our entire coaching staff, and that’s a very good thing.

The run game got worse and the only reason Burrow wasn’t sacked as much is because Callahan adjusted to a quick passing game

Another bad post

[jj22]

(02-14-2023, 09:55 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That’s funny. Troy coached with Frost who doesn’t run anything like Zac. Zac played not coached at Nebraska 16-17 years ago and you think they are playing the same? Our problem on offense is 1000% the OL.

They both coached together at Nebraska in some capacity. Were already close, and Troy said he knew Zac was special and would be a HC one day and wanted to come with him....

[SunsetBengal]

(02-14-2023, 08:30 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Can’t just keep replacing the OL coach every couple of years and hoping for the best. There is a fundamental problem with the way this teams drafts OL. We’ve used a ton of draft capital on the position in the last handful of years , including premium picks (1st & 2nd round), and have very little to show for it. As good as Duke and the FO is at the skill positions, LB, secondary, etc, they absolutely blow at picking OL. We haven’t really had a true hit on one for about a decade (probably Zeitler or Boling). That needs to change. And that’s not on the coaching.

I'm going to disagree with you on that.  The Bengals are picking from the same pool of talent, as every other 31 teams in the league.  The team management knows the value of OL, thus the high picks invested. What isn't happening is player development.  So many offensive linemen have come to this team, only to revert once their college coaching wears off, or in some cases fail to launch completely. Sure, there are naturally going to be a few complete misses with drafting young talent, but not to the degree that the Bengals have experienced.

It doesn't take a room full of top draft picks to make a bully OL.  What it does take is a talented OL coach with support personnel who are all in tune with exactly what particular skill traits they are looking for in their OLmen, along with the ability to develop those players into confident, dominating professionals.  That also touches on offensive style of play allowing the OL to establish the running game.  Running the ball effectively allows the OL to be the aggressors, establish a little dominance, thus making their pass protecting lives much easier.  A defensive front is tremendously less likely to run stunts and have linemen pulling out their 2nd and 3rd pass rush moves, when they are being cautious of getting hit in the mouth up the middle for another 4-6 yard gain.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-15-2023, 11:36 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'm going to disagree with you on that.  The Bengals are picking from the same pool of talent, as every other 31 teams in the league.  The team management knows the value of OL, thus the high picks invested. What isn't happening is player development.  So many offensive linemen have come to this team, only to revert once their college coaching wears off, or in some cases fail to launch completely. Sure, there are naturally going to be a few complete misses with drafting young talent, but not to the degree that the Bengals have experienced.

It doesn't take a room full of top draft picks to make a bully OL.  What it does take is a talented OL coach with support personnel who are all in tune with exactly what particular skill traits they are looking for in their OLmen, along with the ability to develop those players into confident, dominating professionals.  That also touches on offensive style of play allowing the OL to establish the running game.  Running the ball effectively allows the OL to be the aggressors, establish a little dominance, thus making their pass protecting lives much easier.  A defensive front is tremendously less likely to run stunts and have linemen pulling out their 2nd and 3rd pass rush moves, when they are being cautious of getting hit in the mouth up the middle for another 4-6 yard gain.

3 different OL coaches, 2 HC’s, several OC’s…

The one constant has been Duke. Sorry, but he doesn’t get a pass from me wrt the OL woes. You have to hit on some draft picks. And they just haven’t for about a decade.

[*Synric*]

(02-15-2023, 11:43 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 3 different OL coaches, 2 HC’s, several OC’s…

The one constant has been Duke. Sorry, but he doesn’t get a pass from me wrt the OL woes. You have to hit on some draft picks. And they just haven’t for about a decade.

Jim McNally was hired in 2012 to specifically consult on Offensive Line Scouting.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-15-2023, 11:43 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 3 different OL coaches, 2 HC’s, several OC’s…

The one constant has been Duke. Sorry, but he doesn’t get a pass from me wrt the OL woes. You have to hit on some draft picks. And they just haven’t for about a decade.

It's not really fair to pick out one guy to finger the blame on, either.  There is a reason that the assembly of personnel gathered for each team on draft day is called the "war room", the Bengals haven't been a "one voice above all others" team since Mike Brown was flying solo.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-15-2023, 11:55 AM)Synric Wrote: Jim McNally was hired in 2012 to specifically consult on Offensive Line Scouting.

Might be time to consult someone else.

[Essex Johnson]

(02-14-2023, 11:19 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: He was working with absolute trash until this season, and lo and behold once they started to gel they were actually playing well. Rfaulk has posted the numbers here multiple times, there was a long stretch during the 10 game winning streak where they were only giving up about 2 sacks per game. There. Was. Improvement. The run game was inconsistent, but that’s another thing that far predates Pollack’s time here.

Look, we probably would have gone to back-to-back Super Bowls had 3 starters on the OL not gone down at the end of the season. You don’t replace a coach that helped win consecutive division titles and got to consecutive AFCCG. Especially with a patchwork OL.

We’re thankfully returning our entire coaching staff, and that’s a very good thing.

Little doubt the Oline has been the weak link in this team.. and Pollack is part of the equation , coaches are accountable also , I understand he will be here as a coach, the thread was asking what we would like as a change and i feel Oline and a fresh face would be mine.. now with that said if our line continues to be mediocre this coming season, I don;t know how we would continue to keep Pollack and not look for a change.  

[Soonerpeace]

(02-15-2023, 10:05 AM)jj22 Wrote: They both coached together at Nebraska in some capacity. Were already close, and Troy said he knew Zac was special and would be a HC one day and wanted to come with him....

No they didn’t. That’s why I called you out. They coached together very early in their careers for 2 years at TAMU. But what they are doing here is nothing nada zero zip what they were doing there. I followed them. Your premise was they’ve had a fresh set of eyes or voices on defense not offense. Golden left and got the DC job at ND and Lou was tickled pink to get Bettcher. On offense I think KC needs to dump a few coaches to get a new voice lol. They’ve had the same ones as well. Callahan was pressed hard by Arizona and Picher was pursued hard as an OC. The offense’s problem is the OL. See Philly & KC

[Soonerpeace]

As far as the OL drafts somebody’s not getting it right. Volson I think is a hit.

[casear2727]

(02-15-2023, 10:02 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: As far as the OL drafts somebody’s not getting it right. Volson I think is a hit.

The argument can be made that based upon scores Volson did not trend upward as the season went along grade wise.

I would say that Volson coming in as 4th Rounder from a terribly low college division, that he could not have had a more difficult task out of the gate.

He faced these guys and their season ending PFF Ranking:
Chris Jones #1 (twice)
Quinnen Williams #3
Cam Heyward #5  (twice)
Derrick Brown #7
Christian Wilkins #9
Punkass Simmons #10
Calais Campbell #15 (twice)

Cordell had excellent games vs:
Cowboys 87.6 PBLK
Ravens 71.5 (Game 1)
Falcons 75.3 RBLK
Browns 72.1 Overall (Game 1)
Chiefs 76.6 Overall (Game 1)
Patriots 74.8 PBLK
Bills 68.0 RBLK
Chiefs 79.7 RBLK (Game 2)

I would think that he will improve next season, other than AD he cant play any better players than he did this year, and he will have a year's worth of experience.

He is older so I don't expect to see a tremendous jump in size, strength or athletic ability, but this season had to provide priceless experience. He will not be learning a new system and practicing at multiple spots this preseason.  He is set at LG, with a year playing next to Jonah and Karras, no need to get acquainted.  Every indicator says he should improve. 

[Soonerpeace]

(02-15-2023, 10:24 PM)casear2727 Wrote: The argument can be made that based upon scores Volson did not trend upward as the season went along grade wise.

I would say that Volson coming in as 4th Rounder from a terribly low college division, that he could not have had a more difficult task out of the gate.

He faced these guys and their season ending PFF Ranking:
Chris Jones #1 (twice)
Quinnen Williams #3
Cam Heyward #5  (twice)
Derrick Brown #7
Christian Wilkins #9
Punkass Simmons #10
Calais Campbell #15 (twice)

Cordell had excellent games vs:
Cowboys 87.6 PBLK
Ravens 71.5 (Game 1)
Falcons 75.3 RBLK
Browns 72.1 Overall (Game 1)
Chiefs 76.6 Overall (Game 1)
Patriots 74.8 PBLK
Bills 68.0 RBLK
Chiefs 79.7 RBLK (Game 2)

I would think that he will improve next season, other than AD he cant play any better players than he did this year, and he will have a year's worth of experience.

He is older so I don't expect to see a tremendous jump in size, strength or athletic ability, but this season had to provide priceless experience. He will not be learning a new system and practicing at multiple spots this preseason.  He is set at LG, with a year playing next to Jonah and Karras, no need to get acquainted.  Every indicator says he should improve. 

Excellent analysis. Totally agree. Here’s hoping Carman’s play wasn’t an anomaly and he’s finally engaged and just wanted to play LT. I like the idea of Jonah and Collins vying at RT. But we need to finish the job and get Jones or the Tenn kid or somebody

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-15-2023, 10:02 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: As far as the OL drafts somebody’s not getting it right. Volson I think is a hit.

Way too early to call Volson a hit at this point. He was actually one of the worst starting guards in the league this season. He had games where he looked the part, which is encouraging for a rookie, but he was also plenty bad at times, too. He definitely wasn’t good enough that we shouldn’t even consider upgrading the position if the chance presents itself.

I go back and forth on Volson. Is it just years of lower expectations, or do we actually have something there? Would a team like the Chiefs have him as a starter?

[casear2727]

(02-15-2023, 11:02 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Way too early to call Volson a hit at this point. He was actually one of the worst starting guards in the league this season. He had games where he looked the part, which is encouraging for a rookie, but he was also plenty bad at times, too. He definitely wasn’t good enough that we shouldn’t even consider upgrading the position if the chance presents itself.

I go back and forth on Volson. Is it just years of lower expectations, or do we actually have something there? Would a team like the Chiefs have him as a starter?

I do not disagree, however in the scenario that the projected best guard in the draft (Torrence) is available at #28, I will still pass and take Wright to take over RT, and who will be projected not far behind Torrence.  

It makes no sense to me to take a player to compete at a position that is covered, even if the production is average, over a player for a position that is absolutely barren or a train wreck. 

I am not against drafting Patterson, Avila, Ekiyor or whoever after the 1st Round to come in and compete with Volson.  But the list of plug-n-play tackles is very short and none may make it to #60 and yet they are desperately needed.