30,000 foot view of the Bengals and the league in ‘23

[Whacked]

(02-01-2023, 04:02 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I think they won’t be as formidable from hear on out unless they sign Lamar. I think that’s unlikely.

I hate to admit bc I hate the douchebags but they almost beat us, at home, w their C-team playing our starters.

They ARE absolutely competitive w us regardless of Lamar and until we fix this OLine.

Cleveland too. Say what you want all but they will be better and also competitive next year as well w Watson getting reacclimated.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-01-2023, 08:00 PM)Whacked Wrote: I hate to admit bc I hate the douchebags but they almost beat us, at home, w their C-team playing our starters.

They ARE absolutely competitive w us regardless of Lamar and until we fix this OLine.

Cleveland too. Say what you want all but they will be better and also competitive next year as well w Watson getting reacclimated.

Before the OL injuries they were doing fine. Baltimore was playing for a playoff berth. I’m not ready to say we sweep them next year with or without Lamar. But w/o Lamar they don’t scare me.

[3wt]

(02-01-2023, 06:00 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I’m not as worried about the OL. RT yes only because of Collins. I think Volson in his second year will be much better, Karras and Cappa better, and Williams healthy okay. Not worried about corner if Awouzie is heathy. I think ADG fills in for Pratt. The DL is only short on pass rush and Hendrickson I think bounces back. Running back we will have Mixon and I’d bet Perine. I’ve got confidence in both. Hurst I think comes back.

It's why we lost to KC - not that we could not use a TE, another DL who can rush from the interior or the edge and a CB.   There are other needs.   

But we just have to have a quality right tackle and a backup guard who can handle quality D Linemen.  Collins is a 50/50 proposition with regard to his health and Adeniji (sp) is just not good enough.  And there is no guarantee that Volson has a high enough ceiling to improve to the point that he can handle elite defensive linemen.

The trenches (and obviously the QB) define the elite teams in the league.   That's where we need to put our next investments.  And we can't spend more money on quality free agents.   We have too many top players to resign in the next several years.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-01-2023, 08:14 PM)3wt Wrote: It's why we lost to KC - not that we could not use a TE, another DL who can rush from the interior or the edge and a CB.   There are other needs.   

But we just have to have a quality right tackle and a backup guard who can handle quality D Linemen.  Collins is a 50/50 proposition with regard to his health and Adeniji (sp) is just not good enough.  And there is no guarantee that Volson has a high enough ceiling to improve to the point that he can handle elite defensive linemen.

The trenches (and obviously the QB) define the elite teams in the league.   That's where we need to put our next investments.  And we can't spend more money on quality free agents.   We have too many top players to resign in the next several years.

I don’t feel the same as I did at this time about the OL. I don’t think before the injuries it was a concern. But I agree Collins is a worry. Williams we have committed to so that’s that. Volson I think becomes solid.

And why we lost to KC was an untimely punt return and personal foul. Not saying we didn’t struggle in the trenches but I think we got out coached there. In that KC’s staff had a solid game plan. Kinda like what we did to the Bills.

[Dr.Z]

I think getting a better pass rush would be huge for us. I'm Hoping we add some pass-rushing prowess, and I also think it's starting to click for Ossai. With how fundamentally sound the defense has played (most of the time), it's beautiful to think how imposing this D - and the whole team - would be with the added element of consistent pressure on the opposing quarterback. It's so nice to have a good and balanced roster to where there are no temptations to stray from a weighted BPA approach in the draft. I would certainly like to enter the season with some new candidates to help rush the opposing qb, cover opposing wrs, and block opposing defenders in the trenches whether it be via FA or Draft.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(02-01-2023, 08:14 PM)3wt Wrote: It's why we lost to KC - not that we could not use a TE, another DL who can rush from the interior or the edge and a CB.   There are other needs.   

But we just have to have a quality right tackle and a backup guard who can handle quality D Linemen.  Collins is a 50/50 proposition with regard to his health and Adeniji (sp) is just not good enough.  And there is no guarantee that Volson has a high enough ceiling to improve to the point that he can handle elite defensive linemen.

The trenches (and obviously the QB) define the elite teams in the league.   That's where we need to put our next investments.  And we can't spend more money on quality free agents.   We have too many top players to resign in the next several years.

I do think we could possibly draw in quality veteran free agents at better prices now that we've shown we are consistently performing and are a Super Bowl threat.

[Stewy]

(02-01-2023, 03:57 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Ravens could be ok, they will tag Lamar and he will play or they will tag and trade him for a boat load of picks.  Assuming Lamar does not refuse to sign the tag.

I think they TAG and trade him.

As Lamar has accrued some of that 5th yr 1st rnd pick money, he can afford to sit, unlike Bates last year.  Balt is a smart organization.  They'd be fools to sign him to a 100% guaranteed contract.  His injury history isn't going to get better if he keeps ot the same playstyle and he ISN'T a pocket passer.  Lamar knows this which is why he wants a 100% guarantee.  Maybe it's Lamar to the Jets instead of Rogers.

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2023, 10:35 AM)Stewy Wrote: I think they TAG and trade him.

As Lamar has accrued some of that 5th yr 1st rnd pick money, he can afford to sit, unlike Bates last year.  Balt is a smart organization.  They'd be fools to sign him to a 100% guaranteed contract.  His injury history isn't going to get better if he keeps ot the same playstyle and he ISN'T a pocket passer.  Lamar knows this which is why he wants a 100% guarantee.  Maybe it's Lamar to the Jets instead of Rogers.

Can they trade Lamar on the tag? Normally yes teams would trade for a player on a tag because a tag costs usually a top contract and 2 first round picks....


.... but with Lamar that changes because 2 first round picks is a bargin. Whoever gets him has to offer him the largest contract in the league no matter if they trade for him or just use the 2 firsts. 

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 10:39 AM)Synric Wrote: Can they trade Lamar on the tag? Normally yes teams would trade for a player on a tag because a tag costs usually a top contract and 2 first round picks....


.... but with Lamar that changes because 2 first round picks is a bargin. Whoever gets him has to offer him the largest contract in the league no matter if they trade for him or just use the 2 firsts. 

Good point, also it is an assumption he will accept the tag.

But if does it puts the Ravens in a tough spot, they either have to match the offer or only get 2 1st's and let him go.

If a team is willing to pay him, giving up those 2 1sts allows that team to structure the deal how they want in year one, so that is a plus.

[Stewy]

(02-02-2023, 10:39 AM)Synric Wrote: Can they trade Lamar on the tag? Normally yes teams would trade for a player on a tag because a tag costs usually a top contract and 2 first round picks....


.... but with Lamar that changes because 2 first round picks is a bargin. Whoever gets him has to offer him the largest contract in the league no matter if they trade for him or just use the 2 firsts. 

Yep.  A trade would have to be agreed to with Lamar and the team taking him would have to agree on a contract and give Balt compensation......and the Watson deal tells us that teams will be lining up to make offers.

With that said, Watson has very little leverage (Watson had a no trade clause).  He if refuses to sign with the team and it seemingly scuttles the trade, all Balt has to do is tell him that he signs the TAG or they'll TAG him forever and he'll never play again.  Because if he doesn't sign it and sits, then time doesn't accrue and Balt keeps his rights (I think).  For the TAG to count....he has to sign it.

[Stewy]

(02-02-2023, 11:27 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Good point, also it is an assumption he will accept the tag.

But if does it puts the Ravens in a tough spot, they either have to match the offer or only get 2 1st's and let him go.

If a team is willing to pay him, giving up those 2 1sts allows that team to structure the deal how they want in year one, so that is a plus.

You're thinking of the transition tag.  Balt won't use this one because they give up almost all their negotiating power.

With the regular tag, Balt keeps all the rights and can set compensation or negotiate compensation., AND give Lamar the right to negotiate with particular teams, but not ANY team.

With the transition tag, whoever snatches Lamar just gives up two first rounders and Balt has to accept it.  I can;t remember the transition tag being used in recent memory, and I don't see Balt using it here.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 04:15 PM)Stewy Wrote: You're thinking of the transition tag.  Balt won't use this one because they give up almost all their negotiating power.

With the regular tag, Balt keeps all the rights and can set compensation or negotiate compensation., AND give Lamar the right to negotiate with particular teams, but not ANY team.

With the transition tag, whoever snatches Lamar just gives up two first rounders and Balt has to accept it.  I can;t remember the transition tag being used in recent memory, and I don't see Balt using it here.

I think it is like this:

Franchise Exclusive and Nonexclusive tags, and then the Transition Tag.

Franchise Exclusive Tag pays the average top 5 salaries of the player's position and the player cannot negotiate with any other teams.

Franchise Nonexclusive Tag pays the average of top 5 cap hits of the player's position and the player can negotiate with any team, the current team has the opportunity to match the offer, if they don't the other team surrender's 2 first round picks.

Transition Tag pays the average of the top 10 of the players position and the player can negotiate with any team, the current team has the opportunity to match the offer, if the current team cannot or refuses to match they do NOT receive any draft picks.

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2023, 05:34 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I think it is like this:

Franchise Exclusive and Nonexclusive tags, and then the Transition Tag.

Franchise Exclusive Tag pays the average top 5 salaries of the player's position and the player cannot negotiate with any other teams.

Franchise Nonexclusive Tag pays the average of top 5 cap hits of the player's position and the player can negotiate with any team, the current team has the opportunity to match the offer, if they don't the other team surrender's 2 first round picks.

Transition Tag pays the average of the top 10 of the players position and the player can negotiate with any team, the current team has the opportunity to match the offer, if the current team cannot or refuses to match they do NOT receive any draft picks.

In the Exclusive Franchise Tag the player can not be trade which is important. 

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2023, 04:10 PM)Stewy Wrote: Yep.  A trade would have to be agreed to with Lamar and the team taking him would have to agree on a contract and give Balt compensation......and the Watson deal tells us that teams will be lining up to make offers.

With that said, Watson has very little leverage (Watson had a no trade clause).  He if refuses to sign with the team and it seemingly scuttles the trade, all Balt has to do is tell him that he signs the TAG or they'll TAG him forever and he'll never play again.  Because if he doesn't sign it and sits, then time doesn't accrue and Balt keeps his rights (I think).  For the TAG to count....he has to sign it.

You aren't getting it. The Ravens would have to Non Exclusive Franchise Tag Lamar Jackson the most a team has to give up for Jackson is 2 first round picks.

All a trade would do is trade the no exclusive franchise tag rights which still means any team in the NFL can win Lamar if they are willing to give up the most money and 2 first round picks.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 05:40 PM)Synric Wrote: In the Exclusive Franchise Tag the player can not be trade which is important. 

You sure about that?  I think the player can be traded under any tag...?

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2023, 05:45 PM)casear2727 Wrote: You sure about that?  I think the player can be traded under any tag...?

They can be traded under the non exclusive not the exclusive which is what makes the Lamar Jackson situation so weird.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 05:43 PM)Synric Wrote: You aren't getting it. The Ravens would have to Non Exclusive Franchise Tag Lamar Jackson the most a team has to give up for Jackson is 2 first round picks.

All a trade would do is trade the no exclusive franchise tag rights which still means any team in the NFL can win Lamar if they are willing to give up the most money and 2 first round picks.

Pretty sure a team can trade an exclusive tagged player, they simply will not get any required trade compensation. They would acquire whatever their trading partner offered and was agreed to...

I have zero doubt Lamar would be on an exclusive tag so that the Ravens can determine the teams and compensation with who they wish to trade.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 05:46 PM)Synric Wrote: They can be traded under the non exclusive not the exclusive which is what makes the Lamar Jackson situation so weird.

Where are you reading this?  Any tagged player can be traded.... unless something has changed recently.

[*Synric*]

(02-02-2023, 05:52 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Where are you reading this?  Any tagged player can be traded.... unless something has changed recently.

They were talking about it on the Pat Macafee show. Pretty much whenever they bring up Lamar Jackson.

[casear2727]

(02-02-2023, 05:46 PM)Synric Wrote: They can be traded under the non exclusive not the exclusive which is what makes the Lamar Jackson situation so weird.

"The Ravens and Jackson would likely need to work together on a trade because an offer sheet is prohibited with the exclusive designation. Written permission would have to be granted by the Ravens for Jackson to legally talk to other teams because Baltimore would hold his exclusive rights.

Jackson would probably be allowed to negotiate a contract with serious suitors while the Ravens figured out the trade compensation with those teams."

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/agents-take-has-lamar-jackson-played-final-game-with-ravens-how-team-can-deal-with-soon-to-be-free-agent-qb/