The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[*SHRacerX*]

I am sure some of you are tired of this, and Ja'Marr;s recent "Pat Who?" only threw more gas on the fire. However, I think there is one angle that is not discussed in the comparison.

Before I begin, I know that Mahomes has won two Super Bowls and Burrow has none to date. I get that. But how about comparing how they did in a similar situation?

In 2022, the Cheifs lost some key pieces on their offensive line to injury before the Super Bowl. Their line was pretty good before then. Here is Mahomes stat line from that game:

26/49 for 270 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs.

He was facing an elite defense in Tampa Bay with a beat up offensive line.

Here is how Burrow fared in his Super Bowl loss to the Rams:

22/33 for 263, 1 TD, 0 INTS

In fairness, Burrow was sacked an astonishing 7 times for 43 yards. Mahomes was sacked 3 times for 27 yards.

There was a stat (couldn't find it exactly) about the difference between Mahomes and Burrow in last year's AFC title game in terms of time to throw before pressure. Mahomes had something like 1.5 more seconds per drop back.

Why stir up this tired debate? Because I think the Bengals have MORE weapons now, and have MORE depth now (including better starters) on the offensive line. I can't wait to see how Burrow fares with a normal offseason, these new weapons, and a better, deeper line.

Mahomes gets (rightfully) praised for his two Super Bowl victories, but he doesn't seem to take any criticism for how he fared when he didn't have a great (or at least one of the best) offensive lines.

[*rfaulk34*]

When you win rings and MVP trophies, other stuff gets minimized. It will happen with Burrow too.

[KillerGoose]

(06-22-2023, 12:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am sure some of you are tired of this, and Ja'Marr;s recent "Pat Who?" only threw more gas on the fire.  However, I think there is one angle that is not discussed in the comparison.

Before I begin, I know that Mahomes has won two Super Bowls and Burrow has none to date.  I get that.  But how about comparing how they did in a similar situation?

In 2022, the Cheifs lost some key pieces on their offensive line to injury before the Super Bowl.  Their line was pretty good before then.  Here is Mahomes stat line from that game:

26/49 for 270 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs.  

He was facing an elite defense in Tampa Bay with a beat up offensive line.  

Here is how Burrow fared in his Super Bowl loss to the Rams:

22/33 for 263, 1 TD, 0 INTS

In fairness, Burrow was sacked an astonishing 7 times for 43 yards.  Mahomes was sacked 3 times for 27 yards.

There was a stat (couldn't find it exactly) about the difference between Mahomes and Burrow in last year's AFC title game in terms of time to throw before pressure.  Mahomes had something like 1.5 more seconds per drop back.

Why stir up this tired debate?  Because I think the Bengals have MORE weapons now, and have MORE depth now (including better starters) on the offensive line.  I can't wait to see how Burrow fares with a normal offseason, these new weapons, and a better, deeper line.

Mahomes gets (rightfully) praised for his two Super Bowl victories, but he doesn't seem to take any criticism for how he fared when he didn't have a great (or at least one of the best) offensive lines.

I think the weakness in bringing up a point like this is you are trying to only use one game as the evidence against Mahomes. One could just as easily look at Burrow's game logs and say "Okay, Burrow stunk it up against the Browns in the 2021 season." That alone would kind of prove their point - you can't use a singular game as some kind of evidence for or against something. Obviously, Burrow played very well overall in 2021 despite that stinker of a game against Cleveland. If you gave Mahomes a full season behind a porous offensive line, I am sure he would also play very well. 

Now, we can look at their performance when "under pressure" and it will show you that Burrow has a higher passer rating under pressure over the last two seasons than Mahomes does. However, Mahomes is better when he is kept clean. In 2021 they were nearly exactly the same, but in 2022 Mahomes was significantly better than Burrow when kept clean. It wasn't even close. 

Personally, I don't think there is much of an argument for Burrow being better than Mahomes yet. However, I think there is a very strong argument that Burrow is #2. 

[treee]

He's not better than Burrow I don't care if Joey himself says it. He's had more success though so until Burrow wins a couple SBs then I won't have much of a leg to stand on.

[*bfine32*]

Nothing wrong with bringing up such debates during the dead period.

It is great to be able to mention JB as the best in the game and not be a total homer. You know, like the Andy is an elite QB group.

i think in trying to augment the case for JB over PM, the OP brings out what I consider PM's clear advantage. His ability to extend the play.

Now I thought Joe did a much better job at this in 2022 than he did in 2021, but he's still got a way to go to be on Mahome's level.

I will say (as I've said before) If Godell tells me: "bfine we're throwing all the current NFL players back in a draft pool, then Bengals are awarded #1OA, and you are making the pick". Then there's a good chance I'm taking JB over PM

[BengalsLUFC]

Kermit does things that no other quarterback in the NFL can do, his on the fly skill and making something out of nothing is second to none but give him the 2021 o-line and he doesn’t make the playoffs let alone the Super Bowl.

Joey B does everything exceptionally well his accuracy, decision making and toughness are the best in the league.

Both teams are lucky to have their respective QB’s but I’m rolling with Burrow we have the tools in place now to win championships note the plural starting with this season.

[BengalBob]

In the long run, only 1 stat matters.

It's currently 2-0 Pat

Burrow has the team and the time to top him.

[*SHRacerX*]

(06-22-2023, 12:48 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the weakness in bringing up a point like this is you are trying to only use one game as the evidence against Mahomes. One could just as easily look at Burrow's game logs and say "Okay, Burrow stunk it up against the Browns in the 2021 season." That alone would kind of prove their point - you can't use a singular game as some kind of evidence for or against something. Obviously, Burrow played very well overall in 2021 despite that stinker of a game against Cleveland. If you gave Mahomes a full season behind a porous offensive line, I am sure he would also play very well. 

Now, we can look at their performance when "under pressure" and it will show you that Burrow has a higher passer rating under pressure over the last two seasons than Mahomes does. However, Mahomes is better when he is kept clean. In 2021 they were nearly exactly the same, but in 2022 Mahomes was significantly better than Burrow when kept clean. It wasn't even close. 

Personally, I don't think there is much of an argument for Burrow being better than Mahomes yet. However, I think there is a very strong argument that Burrow is #2. 

We differ greatly on these points.  Look at the teams they played last year as well.  Look at how much camp Burrow missed with a ruptured appendix.  Adn he was far from "kept clean".  I don't see Mahomes, or any QB excelling behind a porous offensive line.  Not at least in the  biggest games.  

[KillerGoose]

(06-22-2023, 02:02 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: We differ greatly on these points.  Look at the teams they played last year as well.  Look at how much camp Burrow missed with a ruptured appendix.  Adn he was far from "kept clean".  I don't see Mahomes, or any QB excelling behind a porous offensive line.  Not at least in the  biggest games.  

Perception and reality don't really align here for the bolded. Burrow actually had more attempts from a clean pocket than Mahomes did. With a clean pocket, Mahomes had a 119 passer rating to Burrow's 103. Also, Mahomes' best trait is evading pressure/sacks. I don't think there is a question that he would perform well. 

[PDub80]

(06-22-2023, 12:48 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think the weakness in bringing up a point like this is you are trying to only use one game as the evidence against Mahomes. One could just as easily look at Burrow's game logs and say "Okay, Burrow stunk it up against the Browns in the 2021 season." That alone would kind of prove their point - you can't use a singular game as some kind of evidence for or against something. Obviously, Burrow played very well overall in 2021 despite that stinker of a game against Cleveland. If you gave Mahomes a full season behind a porous offensive line, I am sure he would also play very well. 

Now, we can look at their performance when "under pressure" and it will show you that Burrow has a higher passer rating under pressure over the last two seasons than Mahomes does. However, Mahomes is better when he is kept clean. In 2021 they were nearly exactly the same, but in 2022 Mahomes was significantly better than Burrow when kept clean. It wasn't even close. 

Personally, I don't think there is much of an argument for Burrow being better than Mahomes yet. However, I think there is a very strong argument that Burrow is #2. 

Mahomes wilted against the Bengals D with a good OLine multimple times while Burrow, with a horrible line, still tends to do well.

It isn't just 1 game or a small sample size. People acting as if Pat Mahomes didn't wet himself in the SB with a bad OLine, the 2022 AFCCG, and the other Bengals games where he collapsed under pressure are forgetting that he's human.

Mahomes is a fabulous QB. So is Burrow. They're both human beings and young players. I'm not sad Mahomes is not a Bengal. I like Burrow as a guy better. I like his family better. I like his play style better. I think Burrow will ultimately have the better career.

No Bengals fan should shit talk Mahomes the player and vice versa w Chiefs fans & Burrow. The players, however? I LOVE that!

Mahomes also had 2 of the top 10 YAC guys on his team as well in Kelce (3) & McKinnon (7)

As far as Mahomes with time goes, didn't B-Rad have a thread w stats showing Burrow dominating the league with 2.5 sec to throw or more? Burrow was 1st in:

Compl %
1st Down %
Avg Per Att
& Passer rating

I think these guys are very close and it comes down to who fans like to watch more. Both guys can throw, are accurate, can escape & improvise, can run, are tough, good humans, etc etc.

[KillerGoose]

(06-22-2023, 02:51 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Mahomes wilted against the Bengals D with a good OLine multimple times while Burrow, with a horrible line, still tends to do well.

It isn't just 1 game or a small sample size. People acting as if Pat Mahomes didn't wet himself in the SB with a bad OLine, the 2022 AFCCG, and the other Bengals games where he collapsed under pressure are forgetting that he's human.

Mahomes is a fabulous QB. So is Burrow. They're both human beings and young players. I'm not sad Mahomes is not a Bengal. I like Burrow as a guy better. I like his family better. I like his play style better. I think Burrow will ultimately have the better career.

No Bengals fan should shit talk Mahomes the player and vice versa w Chiefs fans & Burrow. The players, however? I LOVE that!

Mahomes also had 2 of the top 10 YAC guys on his team as well in Kelce (3) & McKinnon (7)

As far as Mahomes with time goes, didn't B-Rad have a thread w stats showing Burrow dominating the league with 2.5 sec to throw or more? Burrow was 1st in:

Compl %
1st Down %
Avg Per Att
& Passer rating

I think these guys are very close and it comes down to who fans like to watch more. Both guys can throw, are accurate, can escape & improvise, can run, are tough, good humans, etc etc.

Maybe it depends on sources, but no, that isn't accurate. Geno Smith was #1 in passer rating with 2.5 seconds or more. Burrow was #2, Mahomes #3.

Tua was #1 in average per attempt. Burrow was #7. Mahomes was #2. 

Burrow was #1 in completion percentage.

PFF doesn't track first downs, so not sure there. 

Maybe it was a "since he came into the league" thing? It wasn't true for 2022, though. 

Overall, I agree that they aren't far from each other. I just think that Mahomes, currently, is good enough that I don't find a compelling argument for Burrow to overtake him. Despite this, I would probably take Burrow in a hypothetical draft over Mahomes. 

[*Synric*]

Bengals are simple in design but its all pre-snap/post-snap reads tough on the QB. They don't run half the play action and screens that the Chiefs do

[PDub80]

(06-22-2023, 03:04 PM)Synric Wrote: Bengals are simple in design but its all pre-snap/post-snap reads tough on the QB. They don't run half the play action and screens that the Chiefs do

This is due to the line being so bad that Burrow can't turn his back long enough to let those types of plays develop.

I think we'll see that change a lot as the line gets better.

Same thing with the screen game. I think the Bengals would benefit GREATLY from screens. Those just require blocking up front and an extra second or two so that YAC lanes can break apart.

[*Synric*]

(06-22-2023, 03:08 PM)PDub80 Wrote: This is due to the line being so bad that Burrow can't turn his back long enough to let those types of plays develop.

I think we'll see that change a lot as the line gets better.

Same thing with the screen game. I think the Bengals would benefit GREATLY from screens. Those just require blocking up front and an extra second or two so that YAC lanes can break apart.

The amount of play action should have went up with the amount of runs from the shotgun formations. Most spread shotgun teams run play action as a technical part of their deep backs lol. 

[Sled21]

It's Pat.....

[jj22]

Quiefs have gone all in on their attack on Chase.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/06/22/travis-kelce-to-jamarr-chase-dont-you-ever-disrespect-patrick-mahomes/

[*bengalfan74*]

As has already been said. If we had a total NFL redraft today, every possible pick is available and we're picking #1

I'd take Joe Burrow

[*bfine32*]

(06-22-2023, 04:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Quiefs have gone all in on their attack on Chase.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/06/22/travis-kelce-to-jamarr-chase-dont-you-ever-disrespect-patrick-mahomes/

I though Travis was giving props to JC. Both are just standing up for their QBs.

WTS, Travis Kelce is quickly turning into a Class A Tool. 

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance and the Bengals sure seem to love abusing that line in the media. I would rather not us be the team of heels who talk shit without ever winning anything. The Burrowhead stuff followed by losing was already bad enough without saying "Pat who?" about the reigning SB Champ and reigning MVP who knocked you out of the playoffs.

I'll call Burrow as the leading candidate for #2 in the NFL and hands down #2 if Rodgers is washed, but I don't care HOW favorable your situation is... if you've been a starter for 5 years and had the 1st, 5th, 6th, 4th, and 1st scoring offenses, you've hosted the AFC Championship game 5 times, been to the Super Bowl 3 times, been the league MVP 2 times, and won the Super Bowl 2 times? Yeah, you're the best.

[Brownshoe]

Burrow took over a team that was 21-42-1 the 4 years prior to him starting. He brought the Bengals to the SB and the AFCCG his 2nd and 3rd year as a starter when we haven't won a playoff game in 30 years. Mahomes took over a team that was 42-22 the 4 years prior and also making the divisional round twice and the playoffs. Mahomes was able to learn under Alex Smith for his rookie year. He was given a team that was ready to make a Super Bowl push. Yes, it's very impressive that he's won 2 SBs and MVPs the 6 years he's been in the league. But I have no doubt in my mind if Burrow was given the situation that Mahomes was given he would have achieved more. I'm hoping we can keep a good roster around Burrow so he can win more SBs and MVPs than Mahomes has, or will have. There's not a QB in the world right now that I would rather have over Burrow.