The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-27-2023, 05:26 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: My point is if you give Burrow this great offensive line people now say we have and if you have Chase and Tee and Boyd then you add Charlie Jones and you have Lou Anarumo as a great defensive coordinator, there is absolutely no reason Burrow shouldnt be able to win a Super Bowl.  None.  Brady didnt require that amount of talent around him to win a Super Bowl.  Mahomes didnt require that amount of talent surrounding him to win a Super Bowl

If you put Patrick Mahomes on this team surrounded by all this talent, do you not think he couldnt win a Super Bowl with all the weapons Burrow has? And now Burrow has Mahomes LT.  All the top QBs could.   Mahomes won the Super Bowl last year with Travis Kelce as his one big receiving threat.  He didnt have threats like Chase or Higgins.  Even in the Super Bowl against Tampa Bay where he had to run for his life Mahomes was still making plays.  He threw many passes including touchdowns that his receivers just dropped.   This Bengals offense needs to do better than the 17 points they scored against the Ravens and 20 they scored against K.C. in the playoffs.

Sure hope the OL is great but we don't know that yet. True that we need to put up a lot more points in the Playoffs for sure. Our 
Defense under Lou has played great and won us most of our Playoff games. It is true that Burrow needs to take that next step and
carry this team a bit, will agree with that, but the terrible OL's in front of him have been the problem, not his play.

If this OL is great in front of Burrow we are the front runners to win the next Super Bowl IMO.

[Soonerpeace]

(06-27-2023, 05:26 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: My point is if you give Burrow this great offensive line people now say we have and if you have Chase and Tee and Boyd then you add Charlie Jones and you have Lou Anarumo as a great defensive coordinator, there is absolutely no reason Burrow shouldnt be able to win a Super Bowl.  None.  Brady didnt require that amount of talent around him to win a Super Bowl.  Mahomes didnt require that amount of talent surrounding him to win a Super Bowl

If you put Patrick Mahomes on this team surrounded by all this talent, do you not think he couldnt win a Super Bowl with all the weapons Burrow has? And now Burrow has Mahomes LT.  All the top QBs could.   Mahomes won the Super Bowl last year with Travis Kelce as his one big receiving threat.  He didnt have threats like Chase or Higgins.  Even in the Super Bowl against Tampa Bay where he had to run for his life Mahomes was still making plays.  He threw many passes including touchdowns that his receivers just dropped.   This Bengals offense needs to do better than the 17 points they scored against the Ravens and 20 they scored against K.C. in the playoffs.

(06-27-2023, 06:44 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sure hope the OL is great but we don't know that yet. True that we need to put up a lot more points in the Playoffs for sure. Our 
Defense under Lou has played great and won us most of our Playoff games. It is true that Burrow needs to take that next step and
carry this team a bit, will agree with that, but the terrible OL's in front of him have been the problem, not his play.

If this OL is great in front of Burrow we are the front runners to win the next Super Bowl IMO.

Well the OL for Brady and Mahomes were near the best in the league. I think if our OL can rise to top 10 then we should win it all. Of course injuries play a part.

[Whatever]

(06-26-2023, 06:24 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I think there's two distinct points in this answer...

1. Do I think Mahomes would be a multiple time Super Bowl winner? No, probably not.
2. Do I think Mahomes still would have turned out really, really good? Yes, absolutely.
   

So, yeah, I do think we would be having this conversation. Mahomes is a top flight QB and it isn't just because of Reid or his offensive line. He is genuinely just very good. 

It's hard to play what if, but I don't know that Mahomes would be a slam dunk regardless of where he went.

He got a year to sit and and be groomed with what was already a playoff team, which is a big advantage few first round QB's are afforded anymore.

Looking at Next Gen Stats, he has never had a Time to Throw lower than 2.82 seconds, has been bottom five in his % of throws to targets with a defender within one yard every year, and has only had a positive Completion % vs Expected once.  Throw in the fact that he was Top 10 last year in being partially responsible for his pressures and the advanced stats very much look like a guy who is slow to get the ball out, has average accuracy, and works in an offense that affords him a large number of easy throws.  The fact that he is consistently Top 5 in Expected Completion % supports this.

[KillerGoose]

(06-28-2023, 11:55 AM)Whatever Wrote: It's hard to play what if, but I don't know that Mahomes would be a slam dunk regardless of where he went.

He got a year to sit and and be groomed with what was already a playoff team, which is a big advantage few first round QB's are afforded anymore.

Looking at Next Gen Stats, he has never had a Time to Throw lower than 2.82 seconds, has been bottom five in his % of throws to targets with a defender within one yard every year, and has only had a positive Completion % vs Expected once.  Throw in the fact that he was Top 10 last year in being partially responsible for his pressures and the advanced stats very much look like a guy who is slow to get the ball out, has average accuracy, and works in an offense that affords him a large number of easy throws.  The fact that he is consistently Top 5 in Expected Completion % supports this.

I tend to think his time to throw being so high is a product of his elite ability to extend plays. Since he has come into the league, he has consistently faced average/above average pressure (you're definitely correct that he generates pressure on his own) but bottom of the league pressure/sack ratios. He ends up getting into pressure somewhat often, either by his own doing or the OL, but he rarely ends up sacked. 

I think the rest of it has very solid reasoning behind it. He works within an offense where he is able to get easy throws off and his average intended distance is roughly league average. Nothing spectacular. I think the main assets that Mahomes brings is elite playmaking ability, elite arm strength, and elite decision making. He has a great feel for where pressure is and is damn near impossible to sack, has the arm strength to make any throw from any location on the field and is good at finding the open guys/making decisions about how to attack a defense. 

That's not a surefire combination, I agree. The biggest question is "how would he have done if he was thrown into the fire his rookie year" if we are talking about him going to a bad team. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-28-2023, 10:23 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Well the OL for Brady and Mahomes were near the best in the league. I think if our OL can rise to top 10 then we should win it all. Of course injuries play a part.

Eagles as well who went to the Super Bowl and nearly won it. Amazing we made it to the SB with what we had in front of Burrow.

Our Defense under Lou and our Kicker were big reasons for it.

Would be nice to not have to rely on this as much and not put so much pressure on the Defense and McPherson.

A top OL would certainly help big time.

(06-28-2023, 11:55 AM)Whatever Wrote: It's hard to play what if, but I don't know that Mahomes would be a slam dunk regardless of where he went.

He got a year to sit and and be groomed with what was already a playoff team, which is a big advantage few first round QB's are afforded anymore.

Looking at Next Gen Stats, he has never had a Time to Throw lower than 2.82 seconds, has been bottom five in his % of throws to targets with a defender within one yard every year, and has only had a positive Completion % vs Expected once.  Throw in the fact that he was Top 10 last year in being partially responsible for his pressures and the advanced stats very much look like a guy who is slow to get the ball out, has average accuracy, and works in an offense that affords him a large number of easy throws.  The fact that he is consistently Top 5 in Expected Completion % supports this.

(06-28-2023, 12:16 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I tend to think his time to throw being so high is a product of his elite ability to extend plays. Since he has come into the league, he has consistently faced average/above average pressure (you're definitely correct that he generates pressure on his own) but bottom of the league pressure/sack ratios. He ends up getting into pressure somewhat often, either by his own doing or the OL, but he rarely ends up sacked. 

I think the rest of it has very solid reasoning behind it. He works within an offense where he is able to get easy throws off and his average intended distance is roughly league average. Nothing spectacular. I think the main assets that Mahomes brings is elite playmaking ability, elite arm strength, and elite decision making. He has a great feel for where pressure is and is damn near impossible to sack, has the arm strength to make any throw from any location on the field and is good at finding the open guys/making decisions about how to attack a defense. 

That's not a surefire combination, I agree. The biggest question is "how would he have done if he was thrown into the fire his rookie year" if we are talking about him going to a bad team. 

Mahomes never panics and his side arm angle throws are extremely special. I think these are the 2 aspects that make him elite.

Burrow's accuracy, smarts, leadership and his killer instincts make him elite. These two QB's are also so competitive and hate to lose.

Will be a blast watching these QB's and teams battle for years. But yeah, if Mahomes went to a bad team with a poor OL like Burrow 
honestly did his rookie year it could of ruined him mentally. Burrow is so strong mentally that it didn't, that is what is so impressive with
Joe Burrow to me.

[*Synric*]

I like it when the media tries to compare these guys using NBA players and they can never think of a good one for Burrow.

Patrick Mahomes is definitely more Steph Curry but Burrow reminds me of one of my favorite point guards all time Hall of Famer and All-Time Leader in Assists & Steals John Stockton. Stockton wasn't the ultimate athlete but no one could see the court better than him.

[Hammerstripes]

(06-27-2023, 12:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I like Burrow and Im happy we have him but until he proves he can win a couple of Super Bowls, Mahomes is #1.

If Burrow needs a loaded team surrounded by Chase, Higgins, Boyd, a great offensive line and Lou Anarumo to bail the offense out, Burrow isnt on that level.  What good NFL QB couldnt win with this Bengals team and the talent they have surrounding the QB on offense and with Anarumo shutting other offenses down on defense.  Burrow needs to step it up

You make very good points regarding the importance of team when it comes to winning in the playoffs.

Explain to me the difference between Burrow and Mahomes when it comes to the team around them?

Mahomes had big time weapons and a strong O-line when he won his first Super Bowl.  He was missing 2 OT and laid an egg against Tampa.

His 2nd Super Bowl he had a top 3 O-line and good weapons.  

Burrow has had great weapons, but a terrible O-line in the playoffs when it has counted.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-28-2023, 01:35 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: You make very good points regarding the importance of team when it comes to winning in the playoffs.

Explain to me the difference between Burrow and Mahomes when it comes to the team around them?

Mahomes had big time weapons and a strong O-line when he won his first Super Bowl.  He was missing 2 OT and laid an egg against Tampa.

His 2nd Super Bowl he had a top 3 O-line and good weapons.  

Burrow has had great weapons, but a terrible O-line in the playoffs when it has counted.

Mahomes also has had Andy Reid as his HC who is an incredible Offensive mind and experienced HC.

Burrow got a guy in Zac Taylor who hadn't proven much of anything as an OC, let alone as a HC. Before Zac got here people 
had a good argument that he was a bad play caller and it can still be argued at times. There is no question in my mind that 
Mahomes landed in a much better spot to start his career.

I don't know how Mahomes would of handled it if say he started as a rookie and got his knee torn up like Burrow did or had
an inexperienced young HC calling plays for him.

[*Go Cards*]

Difference is Patrick sux and has to send his brother over to the refs in locker room to persuade them to give his bro all the calls.

While Burrow is just the blue collar guy getting it done against all odds.

[*jason*]

(06-28-2023, 01:30 PM)Synric Wrote: I like it when the media tries to compare these guys using NBA players and they can never think of a good one for Burrow.

Patrick Mahomes is definitely more Steph Curry but Burrow reminds me of one of my favorite point guards all time Hall of Famer and All-Time Leader in Assists & Steals John Stockton. Stockton wasn't the ultimate athlete but no one could see the court better than him.

Gary Payton, the best defensive guard of all time said Stockton was the toughest guy he ever guarded.

[*Go Cards*]

Really it's fun to be able to debate this about a Bengals QB.

Joe and Pat are both great and although their skill sets are different with Mahomes being more of a video game style to Burrows more traditional approach it seems.

Yet where they are the same is between the ears with their ability to dissect defenses, plus their shear determination to WIN and push their team across the finish line.

Both are outstanding, but Joe Burrow is perfect for the Bengals and would not trade personally.

[KillerGoose]

(06-28-2023, 01:23 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eagles as well who went to the Super Bowl and nearly won it. Amazing we made it to the SB with what we had in front of Burrow.

Our Defense under Lou and our Kicker were big reasons for it.

Would be nice to not have to rely on this as much and not put so much pressure on the Defense and McPherson.

A top OL would certainly help big time.



Mahomes never panics and his side arm angle throws are extremely special. I think these are the 2 aspects that make him elite.

Burrow's accuracy, smarts, leadership and his killer instincts make him elite. These two QB's are also so competitive and hate to lose.

Will be a blast watching these QB's and teams battle for years. But yeah, if Mahomes went to a bad team with a poor OL like Burrow 
honestly did his rookie year it could of ruined him mentally. Burrow is so strong mentally that it didn't, that is what is so impressive with
Joe Burrow to me.

I agree. Mahomes is the most frustrating QB to play against because you get so close, and then he scrambles away and throws a laser guided missile across his body while on the run for a 15 yard gain. He's very special in that regard. Burrow has elite anticipation and accuracy. He has a great feel for the playbook, the defense being thrown at him and his receivers. Earlier in the offseason, when I was running a project on QB arm strength, some of Burrow's lowest velocity throws were tight window throws. He just threw it at the perfect time and in the perfect location. 

[PDub80]

(06-28-2023, 01:30 PM)Synric Wrote: I like it when the media tries to compare these guys using NBA players and they can never think of a good one for Burrow.

Patrick Mahomes is definitely more Steph Curry but Burrow reminds me of one of my favorite point guards all time Hall of Famer and All-Time Leader in Assists & Steals John Stockton. Stockton wasn't the ultimate athlete but no one could see the court better than him.

Burrow's 1,000% White Chocolate. There's no question about that!

[BengalYankee]

(06-28-2023, 02:11 PM)jason Wrote: Gary Payton, the best defensive guard of all time said Stockton was the toughest guy he ever guarded.

ZEKE!!!! >> Stockton

[Whatever]

(06-28-2023, 12:16 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I tend to think his time to throw being so high is a product of his elite ability to extend plays. Since he has come into the league, he has consistently faced average/above average pressure (you're definitely correct that he generates pressure on his own) but bottom of the league pressure/sack ratios. He ends up getting into pressure somewhat often, either by his own doing or the OL, but he rarely ends up sacked. 

I think the rest of it has very solid reasoning behind it. He works within an offense where he is able to get easy throws off and his average intended distance is roughly league average. Nothing spectacular. I think the main assets that Mahomes brings is elite playmaking ability, elite arm strength, and elite decision making. He has a great feel for where pressure is and is damn near impossible to sack, has the arm strength to make any throw from any location on the field and is good at finding the open guys/making decisions about how to attack a defense. 

That's not a surefire combination, I agree. The biggest question is "how would he have done if he was thrown into the fire his rookie year" if we are talking about him going to a bad team. 

Looking at PFR's Pocket Time star, Mahomes is generally in the Top 5 in that stat and has never been lower than tied for 10th.  

So, what we have is a guy who landed in a totally ideal situation.  He wasn't thrown straight into the fire, had a HoF offensive mind as a HC, has always had at least good and often elite pass pro, and has had a HoF TE and Top 5 WR for the vast majority of his run.  

[BengalYankee]

(06-28-2023, 02:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Burrow's 1,000% White Chocolate. There's no question about that!

[KillerGoose]

(06-28-2023, 02:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: Looking at PFR's Pocket Time star, Mahomes is generally in the Top 5 in that stat and has never been lower than tied for 10th.  

So, what we have is a guy who landed in a totally ideal situation.  He wasn't thrown straight into the fire, had a HoF offensive mind as a HC, has always had at least good and often elite pass pro, and has had a HoF TE and Top 5 WR for the vast majority of his run.  

Yes, but I am not asserting that he didn't. He landed in a very good situation, that isn't debatable. I am asserting that he would still be a successful QB if he didn't go to that situation.

He went to the perfect landing spot and is on his way to the Hall of Fame. How good would he be if he went somewhere else? I have no idea. He likely isn't on the trajectory he is on now (not yet, at least) but he has several elite traits that would allow him to flourish. 

[BengalYankee]

[Whatever]

(06-28-2023, 01:30 PM)Synric Wrote: I like it when the media tries to compare these guys using NBA players and they can never think of a good one for Burrow.

Patrick Mahomes is definitely more Steph Curry but Burrow reminds me of one of my favorite point guards all time Hall of Famer and All-Time Leader in Assists & Steals John Stockton. Stockton wasn't the ultimate athlete but no one could see the court better than him.

Oh, for me it's Larry Bird, hands down. Just the toughness and competitiveness combined with that cocky attitude.  Both willing to do whatever it takes to win and always wanting the ball in their hands in the clutch.  

[BengalYankee]

(06-28-2023, 03:04 PM)Whatever Wrote: Oh, for me it's Larry Bird, hands down. Just the toughness and competitiveness combined with that cocky attitude.  Both willing to do whatever it takes to win and always wanting the ball in their hands in the clutch.  

Larry Bird?

Why restrict Burrow to Bird??? When the toughest and competitiveness combined with a cocky attitude and do whatever takes to win always waning the ball in his hands in the clutch is Michael Jordan!!!