The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[samhain]

(07-01-2023, 04:56 PM)Synric Wrote: There is a generation gap here. I remember watching MJ in his prime back when they actually played defense. (The 98 finals was a heartbreaker for me cuz I was a Jazz fan and modeled my game after Stockton as a PG) I can't stand watching basketball now and haven't regularly (march madness mostly) in over a decade.

The 90s and the 2000 teens are are two different sports.

It's pretty simple to me.  I wanted someone to beat Jordan every year throughout his prime, and pretty much all of them failed when it mattered.  It took undefeated Father Time and a lot of cigars to finally make him look human.  

People can talk about different eras all they want.  People can talk about how underrated or overrated Pippen was, or even MJ's teams overall.  It doesn't really matter.  When a guy logs six titles and spent over a half decade looking completely invincible, it creates an aura and a perception of inevitability.  Jordan absolutely established that and LeBron did not, at least in terms of titles.  

LeBron suffered from the same things a lot of extremely gifted people do.  After it's established that someone is great, people want to see them lose.  They want the underdog to knock them down a few pegs.  I certainly wanted to see Malone or Drexler take Jordan down, but they couldn't.  LeBron has proven to be human.  He's played whack a mole, hopping teams in hopes of getting that just right mix that could send him on a dynasty run.  It got him titles, but it never quite went like he hoped, and many fans ate that up.

[Soonerpeace]

(07-02-2023, 12:51 AM)Housh Wrote: Watched a bunch of Burrow highlights cause I’m bored and it’s crazy to see how many times we had routes on the field that would’ve dissected the defense and we just couldn’t throw them because the line. On the play where Burrow gets hit almost at snap, does a spin and finds Tee for a 1st, Boyd was actually WIDE OPEN directly in the hole of the zone Baltimore was playing and Burrow had to ignore him because he had to scramble to his left. Boyd ran his route on the right side and utterly destroyed his man because the corner was so worried about Chase he gave no help on the corner route. If this happens a lot, our offense is gonna change SOOOOO much with a good o line. Upon watching these highlights through the lens of wanting to see if someone was open i realized our passing designs are INSANE. Like they are really
Good. It’s a shame we couldn’t utilize our whole playbook. There were some plays where literally 3-4 guys got wide open but the pressure caused Burrow to hold it which then let the D catch up. One play against Baltimore there were literally 3 guys wide open for an EASY 1st and the literal only reason we didn’t get it off is cause the line. I knew our line was bad but some of these plays really drove it home for me. He’s not even getting time to let routes play out in alot of his highlights. Thank God Chase and Tee are so gifted physically.

So many unknowns about the offense. Has the playbook been limited because of the OL? A better running game will it help the passing game? With better protection could Burrow take it to MVP level?

We won 10 straight games last year. During that run Chase missed several games, Hurst missed several games, and we lost Hendrickson a few games, and several linemen. Of course teams have to deal with injuries and I’d say we did until the AFC Championship caught up with us. But I am guilty. I’m optimistic and excited about the offense and specifically the OL. Not just because of Orlando. I think Volson takes a leap, the entire units cohesion and experience together gives it another boost. Jonah I think with survival in the NFL will be focused and primed. I think he wasn’t athletic enough for all the edge guys. I don’t think he sees as tough of matchups. I don’t think he’ll get over powered as often.

In conclusion I think the offense reaches a new gear.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-01-2023, 09:12 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Nate, LeBrons basketball IQ may be the highest all time.  Are you saying he isn’t basketball smart or real life smart? On the court, few, if any, compare. Jordan was as athletically gifted as Lebron, but played in an era of lesser athletes.  

Off the court, everyone you listed had more question marks around their life decision making.

I said he had the most gifts of any athlete of all time on the court. Take it for what you will.

Lebron can see plays before they happen and make perfect passes, he is damn smart on the court.

Not the best shooter though, and there is no way Jordan was as athletically gifted as Lebron early in age. At North Carolina Mike was 
all skin and bones, just a lanky dude who hit a big shot. He went to the NBA and had to build himself into what he was to take the beating
that the Pistons and Knicks put on him.

Lebron James was built like a tank at 17 years old and could run like a cheetah and jump over cars. Freak athlete and born with it.

(07-01-2023, 09:16 PM)Housh Wrote: People say he’s lying but Bron does this shit off of seeing plays ran ONCE or twice.

Have you heard the infamous story of LeBron recognizing a play ran against him in 2018 and still remembering it while he was a Laker?

That is high level confidence and play recognition.


Other teams players have said they heard LeBron calling out their plays while they were running the play. ThTs more than just having lucky memory. That’s IQ.

Idk how this LeBron isn’t smart narrative has happened. You cannot get the stats and success he’s gotten without being smart. He’s gotta be top 5 all time in passing IQ too. Only ppl CONSISTENTLY making passes like Bron are Russ, Joker, Paul, and Harden. Probably way more but that’s all i remember


https://youtu.be/eIo01nhXTLg

Thanks for this, good stuff. Really like what I saw from the Joker of the Nuggets this year passing the ball.

Sees the court very well, helps when you a 7 foot tall, but he can run the court with the ball, rare skills for a big man.

(07-01-2023, 10:19 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I genuinely don’t get the Lebron hate. I’m a Thunder fan, so it’s not like I just love Lebron. In a time where it’s common for athletes/celebrities to be caught up in scandals where they cheat, or they brandish weapons, or whatever else, Lebron has set the standard. He was hyped up to the best ever while he was still in high school, was drafted #1 overall and has achieved what many thought he was capable of. Off the court, he married his high-school sweetheart, has never been caught up in a scandal and seems to have a good relationship with his children.

I can fully understand not thinking he’s the best ever. However, to insinuate that he is stupid, mentally weak, or whatever else is just so strange to me. He’s one of the greatest players of all time and has been a role model while doing so. Under immense pressure at that, I might add.

Lebron farted on a fan once and constantly brings politics and racism into everything. If he had respect for his fans and just 
stuck to what he is great at there would be no Lebron hate.

(07-02-2023, 12:23 PM)samhain Wrote: I'm ride or die with team Jordan, but LeBron is far from dumb.  Considering the expectations he's had on his shoulder since grade school, I think he did just fine.  He's an excellent father, he's active in the community, and he's undoubtedly one of the best ever to step onto a court.  Lots of young players with that kind of pressure don't manage it nearly as well.  It literally breaks many of them. 

Fair enough. Just not a fan of his off the court speech or the way he treats some fans.

I find Michael Jordan to be the epitome of the best player ever, even with the gambling crap. Pete Rose is a great too and I think 
was treated poorly. Just don't bet while you are playing the game dummies.

[KillerGoose]

(07-02-2023, 02:40 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Lebron farted on a fan once 

This is, hands down, the most absurd reason I have ever been given for someone not liking an athlete. I don't even know how to respond lmao. Especially given the fact it isn't even true. Here is the video you're talking about. Those dudes aren't even close to Lebron.  I have no idea where you got the idea that he farted on them. 

As far as not respecting fans, I think this video would prove the opposite. Like, again, it's just weird shit that you're making up to try to say he's a bad dude or something. First he is stupid, then he is always talking about racism, then he doesn't respect his fans and farts on them. Like what in the world are you even talking about Nate? 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-02-2023, 02:49 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: This is, hands down, the most absurd reason I have ever been given for someone not liking an athlete. I don't even know how to respond lmao. Especially given the fact it isn't even true. Here is the video you're talking about. Those dudes aren't even close to Lebron.  I have no idea where you got the idea that he farted on them. 

As far as not respecting fans, I think this video would prove the opposite. Like, again, it's just weird shit that you're making up to try to say he's a bad dude or something. First he is stupid, then he is always talking about racism, then he doesn't respect his fans and farts on them. Like what in the world are you even talking about Nate? 

I am not going to click on some random link you give me Goose to watch Lebron fart on some fan lol

If you haven't heard Lebron talk politics and speak about race all the time I don't know what to say. Just stick to what you do.

You are a ball player, play ball and he is a damn good one. BTW, heard he got traded from the Lakers, maybe I might like him better ha ha

[KillerGoose]

(07-02-2023, 02:55 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am not going to click on some random link you give me Goose to watch Lebron fart on some fan lol

If you haven't heard Lebron talk politics and speak about race all the time I don't know what to say. Just stick to what you do.

You are a ball player, play ball and he is a damn good one. BTW, heard he got traded from the Lakers, maybe I might like him better ha ha

Lol the point is that he doesn't fart on a fan. That is why what you're saying is absurd. Lebron has spoken about racism and politics, but he doesn't do it all the time, only when there is an event that causes it to come up - like many athletes do. Hell, Burrow has done the same thing. The problem you have with it, my guess, is that what he says doesn't agree with what you believe so it bothers you. But, that is neither here nor there and not for this forum. 

He is still on the Lakers, by the way. He will likely leave when his son gets to the NBA so he can play a final season with him. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-02-2023, 02:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Lol the point is that he doesn't fart on a fan. That is why what you're saying is absurd. Lebron has spoken about racism and politics, but he doesn't do it all the time, only when there is an event that causes it to come up - like many athletes do. Hell, Burrow has done the same thing. The problem you have with it, my guess, is that what he says doesn't agree with what you believe so it bothers you. But, that is neither here nor there and not for this forum. 

He is still on the Lakers, by the way. He will likely leave when his son gets to the NBA so he can play a final season with him. 

So racism and nepotism, okay.

I don't give a damn what color a person is, red, white, black, yellow, purple....

If you are a good person, you are a good person.

Still on the Lakers, okay, will still have Lebron hate I guess lol

Cannot like the Lakers besides Magic, Kobe, Kareem and James Worthy. These guys were good players with class.

[KillerGoose]

(07-02-2023, 06:13 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So racism and nepotism, okay.

I don't give a damn what color a person is, red, white, black, yellow, purple....

If you are a good person, you are a good person.

Still on the Lakers, okay, will still have Lebron hate I guess lol

Cannot like the Lakers besides Magic, Kobe, Kareem and James Worthy. These guys were good players with class.

Lebron wanting to play with his son isn't nepotism lol. He's been projected in NBA mock drafts for a few years now, and not because a franchise might get one season of 40 year old Lebron. 

We can just agree to disagree. You don't like the guy, and that's fine. You can't seem to articulate why you don't like him, or come up with many reasons that are actually true, but you know you don't like him and that is all that matters. 

[Bengalbug]

(07-02-2023, 07:33 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Lebron wanting to play with his son isn't nepotism lol. He's been projected in NBA mock drafts for a few years now, and not because a franchise might get one season of 40 year old Lebron. 

We can just agree to disagree. You don't like the guy, and that's fine. You can't seem to articulate why you don't like him, or come up with many reasons that are actually true, but you know you don't like him and that is all that matters. 

Liking or disliking him is one thing. That’s a personal choice.

However… his greatness as a player, basketball IQ, business acumen, ability to stay out of trouble, etc cannot be questioned.

LeBron and I do not agree on politics, and he is slipping a little the last few years. But damn.. what a career to have been able to witness.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-02-2023, 07:33 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Lebron wanting to play with his son isn't nepotism lol. He's been projected in NBA mock drafts for a few years now, and not because a franchise might get one season of 40 year old Lebron. 

We can just agree to disagree. You don't like the guy, and that's fine. You can't seem to articulate why you don't like him, or come up with many reasons that are actually true, but you know you don't like him and that is all that matters. 

Hey, he could change my mind, there are some that do.

I don't care what you were but what you are.

Great player though and extremely blessed to begin with. I could wish to be that blessed but that is not the way it 
goes. When I was in high school most everyone said I was the best basketball player they had ever seen, but I was 
way too short to play in the Pros and that is a fact. I can still hit ten 3 pointers in a row when I am on. 

If I was born to grow into a 6 foot 8 inch 17 year old 260 pound player I could have been the next great you never 
know...

Michael Jordan wasn't. He said himself he was too skinny and couldn't take the beating so he got in the weight room
and went crazy to make it not be a factor. We all know everyone in the pros get in the weight room but some always 
have a different body. Lebron's is otherworldly IMO.

He better be the best ever. He was given all the gifts to be so.

(07-02-2023, 08:18 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Liking or disliking him is one thing.  That’s a personal choice.

However… his greatness as a player, basketball IQ, business acumen, ability to stay out of trouble, etc  cannot be questioned.  

LeBron and I do not agree on politics, and he is slipping a little the last few years.  But damn.. what a career to have been able to witness.

Completely agree.

[Leon]

(07-02-2023, 02:55 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am not going to click on some random link you give me Goose to watch Lebron fart on some fan lol

If you haven't heard Lebron talk politics and speak about race all the time I don't know what to say. Just stick to what you do.

You are a ball player, play ball and he is a damn good one. BTW, heard he got traded from the Lakers, maybe I might like him better ha ha

amen buddy. tired of hearing players talk about that stuff. folks wanna see you play not know what your politics are, thats why im glad burrow seems to have finally learned his lesson and dont do that no more, i think someone got in his ear an gave him some good advice. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-02-2023, 09:30 PM)Leon Wrote: amen buddy. tired of hearing players talk about that stuff. folks wanna see you play not know what your politics are, thats why im glad burrow seems to have finally learned his lesson and dont do that no more, i think someone got in his ear an gave him some good advice.

We are all friends on this planet and we don't need any division.

More now than ever. I like everyone. Never gave a crap about your color, for some reason that matters to others.

Just talk about your sport and you will get no hate. 

As bad of a dude as I am lol

[Leon]

(07-02-2023, 09:45 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We are all friends on this planet and we don't need any division.

More now than ever. I like everyone. Never gave a crap about your color, for some reason that matters to others.

Just talk about your sport and you will get no hate. 

As bad of a dude as I am lol

yessir. just stick to sports and we will all support you 100%

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-02-2023, 10:01 PM)Leon Wrote: yessir. just stick to sports and we will all support you 100%

Aren't we just terrible?

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-02-2023, 09:30 PM)Leon Wrote: amen buddy. tired of hearing players talk about that stuff. folks wanna see you play not know what your politics are, thats why im glad burrow seems to have finally learned his lesson and dont do that no more, i think someone got in his ear an gave him some good advice. 

Not speaking of anyone on this forum but my observations in life are that, on a large scale, white people want their black athletes to shut up and play and they want their white athletes to be socially aware. 

Not exactly scientific but i'm a pretty observant and i see loads of different people every day. 

[Soonerpeace]

(07-03-2023, 11:03 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not speaking of anyone on this forum but my observations in life are that, on a large scale, white people want their black athletes to shut up and play and they want their white athletes to be socially aware. 

Not exactly scientific but i'm a pretty observant and i see loads of different people every day. 

I think there’s some truth to that. But sports in general … at least basketball and football is overwhelmingly dominated by black players. John McEnroe caught plenty of grief. Baker Mayfield has caught some grief. Boy Brian Bosworth caught plenty. Baseball for whatever reason seems tame regardless.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-02-2023, 09:30 PM)Leon Wrote: amen buddy. tired of hearing players talk about that stuff. folks wanna see you play not know what your politics are, thats why im glad burrow seems to have finally learned his lesson and dont do that no more, i think someone got in his ear an gave him some good advice. 

I guarantee you would have absolutely no issue with Burrow “talking politics” if his views aligned more closely with your own.

I don’t even personally agree with him on everything, but he has the right to speak his mind (especially when asked - like with the gun stuff).

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-03-2023, 11:27 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I think there’s some truth to that. But sports in general … at least basketball and football is overwhelmingly dominated by black players. John McEnroe caught plenty of grief. Baker Mayfield has caught some grief. Boy Brian Bosworth caught plenty. Baseball for whatever reason seems tame regardless.

A lot of that has to go to their level of success. McEnroe was my fav from that generation. I hated Connors. They were both pretty similar in temperament. Mayfield and the Boz were mouthy and didn't really back it up to a decent degree. 

Athletes that are more successful, or at least are entertaining, tend to get a little more of a pass. I'm speaking of "certain" types of athlets but i don't really want this to get too much deeper since it's not PnR. 

I get your sentiment and don't want to seem like it's a hard and fast belief, but it's a lot more prevalent than a lot of people care to admit.  

EDIT: Nicomo makes a good point above, that i agree with wholeheartedly. 

[*jason*]

(07-02-2023, 06:13 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So racism and nepotism, okay.

I don't give a damn what color a person is, red, white, black, yellow, purple....

If you are a good person, you are a good person.

Still on the Lakers, okay, will still have Lebron hate I guess lol

Cannot like the Lakers besides Magic, Kobe, Kareem and James Worthy. These guys were good players with class.

Kobe at best dishonored his wife, and at worst sexually assaulted someone. Great player, but I don't know about class. Magic was married when he nailed every skeez from here to Seattle too. Kareem is more political than LeBron, and there are rumblings he's not fond of white people.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-03-2023, 01:24 PM)jason Wrote: Kobe at best dishonored his wife, and at worst sexually assaulted someone. Great player, but I don't know about class. Magic was married when he nailed every skeez from here to Seattle too.  Kareem is more political than LeBron, and there are rumblings he's not fond of white people.

My thoughts exactly. Worthy is the only guy on there that doesn't have a known rep but he's a dirty Tar Heel.