Breakdown: Why the Offense is Struggling

[*ochocincos*]

(10-05-2023, 08:40 AM)Synric Wrote: A little bit of revisionist history there. They started running Duo in the second half of 2020 to complement the wide zone. The Rams loved that idea and also adapted it in 2021. In 2021 the Bengals started running heavy shotgun duo and inside zones in the second half of the season. They still did some wide zone in short yardage but they were predominantly a shotgun run team. In 2022 they tried the wide zone again after coming off a superbowl with their shotgun run team it didn't work so they simplified it back down to shotgun duo and inside zones.

Honestly the offense the coaches install every year hasn't really worked and had to be simplified and adjusted mid-season to get results. Thr offensive staff has a very hard time marrying a consistent running offense with their passing offense.

Would you say this is (mostly) on Pollack then since he's the run game coordinator, or due to him, Taylor, and Callahan just being out of sync when it comes to running the ball?

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-05-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Would you say this is (mostly) on Pollack then since he's the run game coordinator, or due to him, Taylor, and Callahan just being out of sync when it comes to running the ball?

I don't know who it's on but to me they need to fix it, BAD!

I get it this is a passing team. Hell the entire NFL has become a "passing league". But teams know we don't run the ball with any consistency or effectiveness, at all. I'm not a stat guy but I'd venture to say near 2/3's of our runs thus far this season have been in the 1st qtr. of the four games.

Why??? With a gimpy QB and struggling bad in pass pro Oline do we not at least sprinkle in a few more running plays? And yes I understand when you're down 3 scores late in the game it's hard to run much.

But it sure seems to me we abandon the run way before we're down that bad.

I dunno?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-05-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Would you say this is (mostly) on Pollack then since he's the run game coordinator, or due to him, Taylor, and Callahan just being out of sync when it comes to running the ball?

That's a fair point. Whoever it is needs to fix it.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-05-2023, 09:48 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't know who it's on but to me they need to fix it, BAD!

I get it this is a passing team. Hell the entire NFL has become a "passing league". But teams know we don't run the ball with any consistency or effectiveness, at all. I'm not a stat guy but I'd venture to say near 2/3's of our runs thus far this season have been in the 1st qtr. of the four games.

Why??? With a gimpy QB and struggling bad in pass pro Oline do we not at least sprinkle in a few more running plays? And yes I understand when you're down 3 scores late in the game it's hard to run much.

But it sure seems to me we abandon the run way before we're down that bad.

I dunno?

Taylor and crew should take notes from Kyle Shanahan.
That dude is a wizard when it comes to getting creative run plays and getting teams bought into the run to set up the pass.
I think Burrow would be doing more successful in an offense like that given his current limitation.

[*Synric*]

(10-05-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Would you say this is (mostly) on Pollack then since he's the run game coordinator, or due to him, Taylor, and Callahan just being out of sync when it comes to running the ball?

For me it's an entire offensive staff issue. The offense they installed to start 2022 was just crazy. This off-season Callahan was on record saying they needed to do a better job of marrying the run and pass plus using more motions and play action. The most we've seen out of all of that schematically this year is more motions but I wouldn't say the motions havent been very effective more like doing it to do it.

[*bfine32*]

(10-05-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Would you say this is (mostly) on Pollack then since he's the run game coordinator, or due to him, Taylor, and Callahan just being out of sync when it comes to running the ball?

It does appear they're trying. The last couple weeks I've seen a TE lined up at H-Back in a few sets. I can't remember doing that on a consistent basis since Ryan Hewit. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-04-2023, 12:12 PM)Tomkat Wrote: Does this look like a QB who is pushing/driving off his back foot?

From a single frame? Yes, it looks like he is rotating his weight to the ball of the foot.  You really need to watch the video to see the difference between the two.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-04-2023, 02:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: Burrow is in his 4th year. One person said 2.5 years and now he’s only been taken a beating for 2 years. What next. It’s only been a year of beatings? What I’m saying is Lucks body broke down after awhile and it struggled to recover from injuries that shouldn’t have taken as long to recover from.

I believe he shouldn’t be this bad off still given the injury took place in July. He is and it’s equally likely that his body is beat down and slow to recover as anything else.

It’s a legit and factual opinion as it relates to the toll injuries take on a body. But folks is defensive and I get it.

People said the same thing about Rich Braham's bone bruise. Because they didn't know it was a tibial plateau fracture. And AJ Green's ankle. And Eifert's ankle. And Palmer's elbow.  Andre Smith's foot. Etcetera.  Usually when a player's recovery doesn't match the prognosis it means we haven't been given all the details to know what the true prognosis is. A 2 cm difference in the fracture location of a 5th metatarsal fracture can mean the difference between a return to play in 4 weeks versus out for the rest of the season. But a fan hears "foot fracture" and thinks 4 weeks because they don't know the details that make a huge difference in the prognosis.

So what was the extent of Burrow's calf injury initially which you're basing your prognosis on? My point is you don't know.  You have an opinion.  Doesn't mean it is factual.  In fact, you don't have the facts. It's been a closely guarded secret since Day 1. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-04-2023, 05:59 PM)jj22 Wrote: Rodgers was nearly 40 when he struggled to recover from the calf. Burrow should be young enough to bounce back still given he had 6 weeks before he even practiced.

I'm no doctor granted, but Burrow has been injured yearly since 2016 or so and that does add up over time. Burrow due to injuries could have the body of a 35 year old. Clearly he's recovering like a 35 year old would. That's my theory, and why I say the beatings have added up. I know there are different levels of calf injuries, but this training staff did get a 330 pounder and a 270 pounder back right in less than 4 weeks, and they had more to worry about then sliding to the left or right. They were bracing for other 330 pounders to pounce on them with all their weight and had to hold their ground, move them etc. 

And each grade of injury has a different prognosis. And set backs do occur during rehab which increases the recovery time.

What was the degree of the strain? What was it after Burrow's reported set back?  If you can't answer those questions (which you can't) then you don't know the details to make an accurate prognosis.  You have a hypothesis, not a theory.

[Joelist]

Our problem with running is partly that our preferred passing formations (empty set, shotgun) don't marry up well with a consistent ground game. Also we STILL seem to have schizophrenia about the run scheme as we still have wide zone concepts we use (but at least more of the runs are power now and those tend to succeed). And as long a Burrow is allowed to operate almost exclusively out of shotgun this will persist - also running out of shotgun lets the defense see it is a run before the back hits the line and react to it.

[Tomkat]

(10-05-2023, 02:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: From a single frame? Yes, it looks like he is rotating his weight to the ball of the foot.  You really need to watch the video to see the difference between the two.

I did watch the video.  See my additional posts that expand on this a bit.
It is OBVIOUS his throwing motion is different.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2023, 05:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: And he never played as horrible as Burrow, so that is that. 

True, but that's probably because when he got injured he just didn't play at all.

(10-04-2023, 06:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: Burrow has battled injuries yearly for a long time now. it isn't just those, and there are probably more nagging ones we don't know about. I know he is Superman, but we've seen the beatings he's taken. 

I didn't quote it, but you admit you're not a doctor but now you KNOW that there are MORE injuries that we don't know about. Ok. Sure.

[kevin]

(10-04-2023, 10:47 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Good article.

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/bengals-film-breakdown-why-offense-struggling-how-they-can-improve?utm_source=reddit.com

I don't need to read an article, I'm a Bengals Fan since 1968 first season.  Joe Burrow came in and lead Bengals to the 2 best back to back seasons in Bengals History.  This team is only as good as Joe Burrow, and so far this season, Joe Burrow has played injured and is not as good as a healthy Joe Burrow.  Again, this team is only as good as Joe Burrow.  When he is healthy, they win.  When he is injured, they lose.   It is That Simple. 

[RegularGuy22]

(10-05-2023, 03:05 PM)kevin Wrote: I don't need to read an article, I'm a Bengals Fan since 1968 first season.  Joe Burrow came in and lead Bengals to the 2 best back to back seasons in Bengals History.  This team is only as good as Joe Burrow, and so far this season, Joe Burrow has played injured and is not as good as a healthy Joe Burrow.  Again, this team is only as good as Joe Burrow.  When he is healthy, they win.  When he is injured, they lose.   It is That Simple. 

Yes, that is most likely true and that seems to be the biggest problem. This season so far is proof of that. They are a 1 dimensional team relying on 1 player too much injury or not.

[kevin]

(10-05-2023, 03:12 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Yes, that is most likely true and that seems to be the biggest problem. This season so far is proof of that. They are a 1 dimensional team relying on 1 player too much injury or not.

I won't say they rely on him too much.   I won't say Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana and such were relied on too much.  Once in a blue moon you land a franchise quarterback that is your team leader to Super Bowl type seasons.  We could say the Chiefs rely on Mahomes or the Bills rely on Allen.  I won't say Bengals rely on him too much.   If we hadn't drafted Burrow, Bengals would have never went from last place door mats to Super Bowl and AFC Championships. ....They do need to get him healthy if they want to win, even if that means benching him until he is healthy.  Burrow is not a scrambler nor is he a runner, but when heathy he is elusive and escapes pass rushers, which he can't do this year injured, and forget about taking the open run and doing the baseball slide. The leg injury also won't let Burrow step into his passes either. I give Burrow credit for playing with guts through the injury, but he is not healthy and it shows. Again, if they have to bench him to get him back healthy, do it, because this team don't win until Burrow is more healthy.

[Frank Booth]

(10-05-2023, 03:39 PM)kevin Wrote: I won't say they rely on him too much.   I won't say Otto Graham, Johnny Unitas, Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana and such were relied on too much.  Once in a blue moon you land a franchise quarterback that is your team leader to Super Bowl type seasons.  We could say the Chiefs rely on Mahomes or the Bills rely on Allen.  I won't say Bengals rely on him too much.   If we hadn't drafted Burrow, Bengals would have never went from last place door mats to Super Bowl and AFC Championships. ....They do need to get him healthy is they want to win, even if that means benching him until he is healthy.  

the offense relies on the passing game way too much. When their passing game is bad, and they still manage to win, it's usually the defense that bails them out. Rarely the run game.

People here didnt care about the run game because "we have Joe burrow" and all we need is 4ypc. 

well when Burrow is hurt, how you gonna win? You put the offense of Burrow's shoulders. There has never been a healthy balance with this team. And when I say balance, I dont mean equal rushing attempts to pass attempts. I mean having a run game that can be top 15 in YPC when called upon. But it's never been that way here under Joe Burrow. The run game has always been bad and inneficient 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(10-05-2023, 02:56 PM)Tomkat Wrote: I did watch the video.  See my additional posts that expand on this a bit.
It is OBVIOUS his throwing motion is different.

I get it. I should have explained myself better.

I saw the pictures first. Then watched the video.  The pictures can be deceiving and give a different impression than the video.

If you only see the pictures you're not going to get the big picture, pun intended.

I agree with your conclusions, but it is because I watched the video.

[RegularGuy22]

Kevin, not trying to argue but they DO rely on JB too much. This season is proof. If the O looked somewhat respectable and was scoring our D wouldn't be on the field so much with their tongues hanging out. The D is being overworked. Frank is right, the Bengals NEED in the worst way a decent run game and a few new wrinkles or looks on offense. Top 15 in rushing would help lots.

Other teams defense coord. around the league see this and plan to slow down or stop Burrow injury or not. They aren't worried about our run game cause we don't have much of one. That makes the Bengals pretty much one dimensional. It's pass or nothing and it isn't working.

[casear2727]

(10-04-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: The issue is y’all using the calf as a crutch for all the woes we see with the team. It’s lazy. If anything the calf is proof Burrows body is breaking down and that is likely from the 4 years of beatings it’s taken. It should be alarming his body at 26 can’t heal in 6 weeks leading up to the season. And the reason is equally likely as it being the number of beatings he’s took. Ask luck. Anyone remember what his injury was when he retired the one his body just struggled to recover from? It wasn’t anything that should have ended his career. I just have a big picture view.

[casear2727]

(10-04-2023, 12:17 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The bigger issue with Burrow to me is his inability to get outside the pocket and extend plays and avoid pressure.

I just finished watching Kyle Kasys gamae film review and there were so many plays where Joe could have bounced outside the pocket to bye time and and extend plays and he just didn't even attempt it....leading to a sack.

Here's that video if youre interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3655&v=LDDQEE4Pot4&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2F&source_ve_path=MzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

Kyle pointing out the missed chips by the RBs resulting in sacks left me ill.  Such basic football miscues that should not happen at this level.