Time to move on from Frank Pollack

[Joelist]

Actually they are not buzzwords. Power Gap, Wide Zone and Inside Zone are all schemes. Each encompasses many plays. And these schemes favor different types of linemen. Zone schemes emphasize quick and fast linemen to get out and flow the play to the sideline. Power emphasizes exactly what the name suggests - strong linemen who leverage well are more important than speed here.

Since our OL room is full of the type of linemen Power Gap schemes favor, it is only reasonable to ask if a coach has experience with that type of scheme. One can make a case right now that a lot of the troubles on the line (in the run game) are us trying to have them run wide zone concepts they are not physically suited for. Pass blocking they are already doing pretty well, with the main issue seeming to be picking up stunts by C-LG.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-10-2023, 04:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually they are not buzzwords. Power Gap, Wide Zone and Inside Zone are all schemes. Each encompasses many plays. And these schemes favor different types of linemen. Zone schemes emphasize quick and fast linemen to get out and flow the play to the sideline. Power emphasizes exactly what the name suggests - strong linemen who leverage well are more important than speed here.

Since our OL room is full of the type of linemen Power Gap schemes favor, it is only reasonable to ask if a coach has experience with that type of scheme. One can make a case right now that a lot of the troubles on the line (in the run game) are us trying to have them run wide zone concepts they are not physically suited for. Pass blocking they are already doing pretty well, with the main issue seeming to be picking up stunts by C-LG.

I 100% agree with what you are saying, Joe.

I think, personally, Taylor/Callahan wants to run a type of running scheme that does not cater to the OL's strengths.

Pollack brought in big dudes who are not overly athletic on the move (at least IMO).
They are more bulldozer type of guys you would expect on like the Ravens that will drive block their guy off the line to create vertical movement.
I think we saw this in 2021 or 2022 when they started moving away from wide zone as much because the OL just couldn't execute it well.


Here's an (overly elaborate) explanation of the different blocking schemes for those who care - https://www.milehighreport.com/22451001/difference-between-zone-and-gap-scheme

A good quote to generalize the biggest differences:

Quote:First and foremost is how the concepts work philosophically. Zone runs work around the idea that the back will be like water, finding a hole where the defense isn’t. Gap runs have a hole in mind before the ball is snapped and depends on the offense imposing their design upon the defense.

The second difference is how each scheme creates leverage on a defender. Zone asks the blockers to step in unison and work in tandem to overtake and wall off defenders while each lineman runs along their track. Gap asks lineman to block down the line of scrimmage from their initial starting spot and away from the hole, as this creates an advantage from the jump.

I don't think the Bengals have good enough RBs to find a hole where the defense isn't. I think they would do much better going to a certain predetermined spot and relying on the OL winning their assignments to force that hole to open.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(10-10-2023, 03:59 PM)Housh Wrote: Iv said it in the game threads all year

I cannot judge Pollack until Burrow is Burrow.

To me these guys haven’t played bad. You absolutely cannot block for a statue.

The Patriots blocked for a statue for 15 years. 

[*Go Cards*]

(10-09-2023, 09:48 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Frank, how can you like Volson? The guy is terrible. 

Frank is a fan of Volson 

[GodFather]

(10-10-2023, 11:51 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I'm not against getting rid of anyone if we can upgrade. But I'll ask the same question I always ask when someone says we need to get rid of someone. Who are you going to replace him with that is better. It's easy to say "get rid of this guy." Do we have someone on staff who would do a better job, or is there someone better who does not already have a job? It's the details..... You want to fire Pollack fine, who do you suggest replacing him with?

Thats funny cause last week when I posted the same exact thing you were going on what a well respected coach he was and how crazy it would be too get rid of coaches who just brought us to a Super Bowl 2 years ago. 

Funny how much changes in a week..

[SunsetBengal]

(10-10-2023, 04:54 PM)Joelist Wrote: Actually they are not buzzwords. Power Gap, Wide Zone and Inside Zone are all schemes. Each encompasses many plays. And these schemes favor different types of linemen. Zone schemes emphasize quick and fast linemen to get out and flow the play to the sideline. Power emphasizes exactly what the name suggests - strong linemen who leverage well are more important than speed here.

Since our OL room is full of the type of linemen Power Gap schemes favor, it is only reasonable to ask if a coach has experience with that type of scheme. One can make a case right now that a lot of the troubles on the line (in the run game) are us trying to have them run wide zone concepts they are not physically suited for. Pass blocking they are already doing pretty well, with the main issue seeming to be picking up stunts by C-LG.

Any team that thinks that they can only run one or the other style of plays and be consistently successful is fooling themselves.  Even if you have a bunch of athletic, high mobility guys on your OL and prefer to run the Wide Zone play, there are still times that you'll find you need to push dead ahead for short yardage, or run some inside traps and dives just to keep the defense honest.

Committing a team to only one "scheme" of running plays is foolhardy, and can make your rushing offense as one dimensional as being a pass only offense.  Defenses are smart, they adapt and learn how to stop what you run over and over.  Remember when Miami introduced the "Wildcat" offense?  What did it take, about 4-5 games before defenses saw what was going on and were able to neutralize it.  Anyone who grew up playing OL knows that you need to first and foremost, be able to drive an opponent off of the ball.  If you can do that, and you have good mobile athleticism, the playbook expands as far as your unit can execute in orchestrated fashion.  Blocking skills are blocking skills, no matter the blocking "scheme", I call those schemes buzzwords because they are just a compartmentalization of the entire duties of an offensive line.  

[QueenCity]

The fact that our O-Line has had to change schemes multiple years under Pollack mid-season is enough to fire him in my book.

Know your personal that's all I got to say.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-10-2023, 03:20 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Don't know anything about him. He was at Wisconsin in 21, Virginia Tech in 22 and ND in 23? Can he not keep a job or did he break contract, or was hs under contract? Does he want to coach in the pros? Fill me in on him....

Leaving Wisconsin was probably him seeing the writing on the wall for Paul Chryst. Chryst got fired after only 5 games into the 2022 season and then the whole coaching staff got changed in '23 when they brought in Fickell... so he got out just before things became a mess, and his value was still good.

Don't know the details on leaving Virginia Tech, but I imagine it has to do with Virginia Tech being in the ACC. Moving to Notre Dame is a clear step up as one team is competing for the College Football Playoffs and the other the Belk Bowl and Pinstripes Bowl. I don't know his salary in both locations, but I do know Notre Dame was paying Kelly like $9.5m/yr as the HC a few years ago there and the Virginia Tech HC is making like $4.5m/yr.

[KyBengalfan94]

Not to defend Pollack but from what I have read the Bengals are not good at recruiting top pass blockers. For some reason, we can't figure out how to make a good offensive line but the whole league is having problems with pass rushers out performing offensive lineman.

Unless you are Kansas City then you are allowed to just hold all day.

Personally I am sick of watching these "glass eaters" get pushed around like a bunch of parking cones. The interior is weak, guards missing assignments all the time, something needs to change. We need to make a trade and solidify this line. Give Burrow more than 2 seconds to throw

[Housh]

(10-10-2023, 08:12 PM)KyBengalfan94 Wrote: Not to defend Pollack but from what I have read the Bengals are not good at recruiting top pass blockers. For some reason, we can't figure out how to make a good offensive line but the whole league is having problems with pass rushers out performing offensive lineman.

Unless you are Kansas City then you are allowed to just hold all day.

Personally I am sick of watching these "glass eaters" get pushed around like a bunch of parking cones. The interior is weak, guards missing assignments all the time, something needs to change. We need to make a trade and solidify this line. Give Burrow more than 2 seconds to throw

The position is gonna need to evolve to keep up with these insane pass rushers coming out.

[SunsetBengal]

(10-10-2023, 08:12 PM)KyBengalfan94 Wrote: Not to defend Pollack but from what I have read the Bengals are not good at recruiting top pass blockers.  For some reason, we can't figure out how to make a good offensive line but the whole league is having problems with pass rushers out performing offensive lineman.  

Unless you are Kansas City then you are allowed to just hold all day.

Personally I am sick of watching these "glass eaters" get pushed around like a bunch of parking cones.  The interior is weak, guards missing assignments all the time, something needs to change.  We need to make a trade and solidify this line.  Give Burrow more than 2 seconds to throw

That was the original intent of this thread, the Bengals have had a couple of different OL coaches since Alexander went downhill, and while they have spent several high draft picks on OL, they still struggle to put together a competent unit.  

So, in the spirit of the "get rid of Frank Pollack" thread, who would you suggest that the Bengals interview?

[KyBengalfan94]

(10-10-2023, 08:40 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That was the original intent of this thread, the Bengals have had a couple of different OL coaches since Alexander went downhill, and while they have spent several high draft picks on OL, they still struggle to put together a competent unit.  

So, in the spirit of the "get rid of Frank Pollack" thread, who would you suggest that the Bengals interview?

I have no clue.  They have spent a good bit of money on guard, center, tackle bringing in what they think are quality players and yet the line still seems to be under performing.  

I think they made a HUGE mistake letting Collins walk to save a few bucks.  He would have been ideal depth that we absolutely needed last season in the playoffs against the Chiefs.

Carmen is a bust.  His best performance was at LT against the Bills and went down hill from there.  

I would be in favor of trading Tee Higgins now for a solid interior lineman, a guard that can hold his own and a draft pick.  Higgins is hit or miss anyway.  He either has a great game or drops everything comes his way

[chrisball96]

(10-10-2023, 08:49 PM)KyBengalfan94 Wrote: I have no clue.  They have spent a good bit of money on guard, center, tackle bringing in what they think are quality players and yet the line still seems to be under performing.  

I think they made a HUGE mistake letting Collins walk to save a few bucks.  He would have been ideal depth that we absolutely needed last season in the playoffs against the Chiefs.

Carmen is a bust.  His best performance was at LT against the Bills and went down hill from there.  

I would be in favor of trading Tee Higgins now for a solid interior lineman, a guard that can hold his own and a draft pick.  Higgins is hit or miss anyway.  He either has a great game or drops everything comes his way

At some point we have to ask why we’re consistently unable to either develop linemen we draft or get the most out of the guys we sign. And for me it’s a high probability it’s Pollack.

[Frank Booth]

(10-10-2023, 09:07 PM)chrisball96 Wrote: At some point we have to ask why we’re consistently unable to either develop linemen we draft or get the most out of the guys we sign. And for me it’s a high probability it’s Pollack.

there's also something deeply flawed with their o-line scouting

[Joelist]

Just a bit of context:

We are 4th in the NFL in number of drop backs (198). Despite this we have a pressure % of only 16.8%, good for 8th best in the NFL. We've yielded 11 sacks in 198 dropbacks for a sack percentage of 5.58%, good again for 8th best in the NFL. Counting Burrow's quick release as some sort of minus is just weird - those super fast throws were because of Burrow not the line. They knew he was immobile and so the plan was to get the ball out right away. So pass protection wise this line is doing its job quite well even with the occasional issue picking up stunts.

Run wise there is a much better case to be made that there are issues. We have a 3.5 YPA average which is 26th in the league. We've also only rushed 106 times in 5 games. I would argue this is at least partly a byproduct of us being almost 100% in shotgun - not the best rush formation. Also with only 106 carries any negative play like a kneel is far bigger an effect. As to breakdowns, that is interesting. We are worst running wide right (1.6 YPA) and our best runs are inside left (5.3 YPC) and inside right (also 5.3 YPC). In fact When we run using the gaps between LT and LG, or LG and C or C and RG the combined YPC is 4.85. So clearly we run best inside. When they do go wide for the edges we are WAY better going left than right. Kinda interesting.

[ezekiel23]

At what point do we hold Frank Pollack accountable? The OL continues to underperform.Regardless of recent failures,I think this is a talented OL.

[Frank Booth]

(10-10-2023, 10:08 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: At what point do we hold Frank Pollack accountable? The OL continues to underperform.Regardless of recent failures,I think this is a talented OL.

talent wise it's prob the 18th best o-line

[SouthernFan]

(10-09-2023, 01:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I realize you were kidding, but that really could be a possibility.  I'm just hoping that the bye week is a working vacation for the team, as they really need the fundamentals time.

Working on fundamentals and practicing hard don’t seem to be part of Zac’s culture philosophy. Bye week will most likely be rest and recovery. Then a return to regular weekly schedule.

[thompson19osu]

(10-09-2023, 09:47 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Stunts have been an issue for like 4 weeks now. The fact that it isn't fixed and it's stil happening is a refelction on coachin (Pollack).

Honestly, something is going to have to be done about this OL after this season. It just isn't good enough. Volson and Karras have played pretty poorly this year.

Aside from OB getting on speed around the edge, the one consistent factor for the line getting beat is stunts to the middle. They just cannot seem to handle it you would think it would be a major point to handle in practice and watching film but its the same week in and out. To me it falls straight on Pollack.

[chrisball96]

(10-10-2023, 10:13 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: talent wise it's prob the 18th best o-line

But it is the 6th highest paid offensive line unit in the NFL. Quite simply, the team is not getting the performance it paid for.