Does Burrow need to hit another level?

[casear2727]

(11-14-2023, 06:42 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If Bengals management is going to keep letting good defensive players leave so they can use that money to pay the guys on offense, the offense needs to carry the team instead of Lou's defense from now on.  You see what not having Bates and Bell and Apple has done to the secondary.  Those guys in the secondary look like they have no clue.  And Lou also lost Ogunjobi before last season.  When you keep losing talent from the defense like that, you just arent going to be as good.   Lou didnt suddenly become a bad DC.  He just doesnt have the same talent now and that is because the Bengals have decided to spend the money on the offensive players so the offense needs to step up.  Boyd needs to make that TD catch.  Burrow needs to stop throwing 2 interceptions in the 4th.  The Oline needs to block better.  If the offense is where the Bengals are spending the money, the offense needs to get carry the team and get it done.

We lost 2 starters and Apple.

Letting Apple go was a no brainer.

Letting Bates go at his asking price with Dax in the building was a no brainer.

Bell was the one that caught them by surprise and he took a different deal.  $9M more Bell next season doesnt really work for us.  If Scott didnt suck so bad and Battle were not so slow this wouldnt be an issue either.

That said I agree the offense has not been good enough and needs to be much better.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-14-2023, 08:52 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Lou gave up 550 yards as he typically does this year.
I’m thinking no offense beats dat.

If an offense doesn’t go 5 consecutive drives with 35 yards and 5 punts, o doubt the Texans get 550 yards. It’s called complementary football and the offense is not great at it.

[007BengalsFan]

(11-14-2023, 01:57 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Not blaming Boyd but he’s got to make that catch. I’m not going to fault a QB who has less INT than Mahomes or Hurts with much better OL’s. The OP that Joe needs to take it to another level. I say with this crap run game it’s hard to get to that level.

Mahomes has a better offensive line but he doesnt have the weapons at WR Burrow has.  If Burrow needs to have Chase, Higgins, Boyd plus a top offensive line, Burrow isnt that great.  What decent NFL QB wouldnt have success if they were behind a top O line and had weapons like Burrow has?  We already took Mahomes Pro Bowl left tackle, two linemen that blocked for Brady plus the weapons we already have at WR.  At what point do we say we should be doing better with all the talent we have on offense?

[*PhilHos*]

(11-14-2023, 06:36 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: So losing 27-3 twice this year is the defense sucking? 

We didn't lose 27-3 twice this year. We lost 27-3 once. We did lose 24-3 one as well. Funny thing, Burrow was clearly hobbled by an injury but, sure, that kind of context you don't want to consider for some reason.

(11-14-2023, 06:36 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Losing 34-10 last Halloween is just the defenses fault? 

Of course it's not "Just" the defenses fault. It is just Burrow's fault, right?

(11-14-2023, 06:36 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Losing 30-27 when your defense gave you 3 turnovers is only the fault of the defense?

Defense still gave up 30 points! Burrow throws 3 TD against the Cards this year and according to you, that's not a good game. Defense gives up 30 points but got 3 turnovers and, according to you, that IS a good game.

(11-14-2023, 06:36 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Isn’t your high priced QB supposed to be able to win you games when not everything is going well? Or does everything have to be going perfect around him to win games because that sure seems to be what you’re arguing.

Burrow has not had an even average OL his entire NFL career, the defense that's carried much of the load in the playoff wins is inconsistent in the regular season and almost nonexistent this season. Burrow hasn't had a fully healthy offseason yet and has started the last 2 seasons with injuries that affected his play, and you consider all that "perfect"?! Oh, and despite all that "perfection" he still has a winning record as a starting QB. 

[*PhilHos*]

(11-14-2023, 06:48 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: You’re right I didn’t include it all. I also ignored the defense getting 3 turnovers, one resulting in 6 points. I ignored 2 of his TD passes he had over 4 seconds to throw the ball. I ignored that on one of their field goal drives they moved the ball 26 yards but started on ARZ 48 thanks to D and special teams. I ignored that after that drive the combined for -1 yard their next two drives then turned it over on downs. I ignored that going into halftime that game they would have been losing if not for the pick 6. I ignored that they followed up a ARZ TD with an interception by Burrow. Only for the defense to bail them out by getting ARZ to get a Turnover on downs. Who (defense) followed up the rest of the game fumble, interception, turnover on downs, end of game. That enough context for you?

Sorry- this tells me more about defense than Burrow.

Without the pick 6, the offense still scored 27 points which was still more than enough to win the game. But, sure, it was just the defense with no help from Burrow and the offense that won us the Cards game.

[Soonerpeace]

(11-14-2023, 06:54 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Mahomes has a better offensive line but he doesnt have the weapons at WR Burrow has.  If Burrow needs to have Chase, Higgins, Boyd plus a top offensive line, Burrow isnt that great.  What decent NFL QB wouldnt have success if they were behind a top O line and had weapons like Burrow has?  We already took Mahomes Pro Bowl left tackle, two linemen that blocked for Brady plus the weapons we already have at WR.  At what point do we say we should be doing better with all the talent we have on offense?

Mahomes has Kelcie. Burrow has Chase so it’s a wash. Mahomes has 3 better IOL than us by a mile. Surely you aren’t saying Tee & Boyd make up for that? I think it’s a wash about supporting casts. But I also think Burrow and Mahomes are close.

[007BengalsFan]

(11-14-2023, 06:51 PM)casear2727 Wrote: We lost 2 starters and Apple.

Letting Apple go was a no brainer.

Letting Bates go at his asking price with Dax in the building was a no brainer.

Bell was the one that caught them by surprise and he took a different deal.  $9M more Bell next season doesnt really work for us.  If Scott didnt suck so bad and Battle were not so slow this wouldnt be an issue either.

That said I agree the offense has not been good enough and needs to be much better.

If we had Bates, Bell and Apple on the roster, this defense would be much better.  If you let guys like that walk dont complain about Lou's defense not playing as well as they did last year.  The Bengals management has decided to let defensive players walk so they can sign the offensive guys to big contracts.  Thats fine but if you are going to weaken the defense to pay the guys on offense, the offense needs to step up and carry the team.  Dont blame Lou when you take away the talent he has to work with.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-14-2023, 06:57 PM)PhilHos Wrote: We didn't lose 27-3 twice this year. We lost 27-3 once. We did lose 24-3 one as well. Funny thing, Burrow was clearly hobbled by an injury but, sure, that kind of context you don't want to consider for some reason.


Of course it's not "Just" the defenses fault. It is just Burrow's fault, right?


Defense still gave up 30 points! Burrow throws 3 TD against the Cards this year and according to you, that's not a good game. Defense gives up 30 points but got 3 turnovers and, according to you, that IS a good game.


Burrow has not had an even average OL his entire NFL career, the defense that's carried much of the load in the playoff wins is inconsistent in the regular season and almost nonexistent this season. Burrow hasn't had a fully healthy offseason yet and has started the last 2 seasons with injuries that affected his play, and you consider all that "perfect"?! Oh, and despite all that "perfection" he still has a winning record as a starting QB. 

I never said giving up 30 to the Texans was a good game by the defense.
But going 2 quarters, 6 drives and 32 yards after the first TD had just as much, if not more to do with the loss than the defense.


You’re the one who said we only lost because the defense sucked. I’m just pointing out how wrong you were. Don’t get defensive because of it.

This post is littered with excuses. Many of which I agree with, but let me ask you this- if the supposed top 2 QB has to have excuses for his play pretty much his entire career, is he really top 2?

[Soonerpeace]

(11-14-2023, 06:51 PM)casear2727 Wrote: We lost 2 starters and Apple.

Letting Apple go was a no brainer.

Letting Bates go at his asking price with Dax in the building was a no brainer.

Bell was the one that caught them by surprise and he took a different deal.  $9M more Bell next season doesnt really work for us.  If Scott didnt suck so bad and Battle were not so slow this wouldnt be an issue either.

That said I agree the offense has not been good enough and needs to be much better.

This but it’s really just a rushing offense that’s the worst in the league.

[RegularGuy22]

Folks keep saying we have all these WR weapons. What makes them weapons? We currently have 1 receiver, Chase, 4th in the top 25 in the league. Next is Boyd at 27. Higgins is 90th.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-14-2023, 07:00 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Without the pick 6, the offense still scored 27 points which was still more than enough to win the game. But, sure, it was just the defense with no help from Burrow and the offense that won us the Cards game.

Are we just expecting “enough” from our 250 mil QB? That’s what I’m arguing. Y’all are saying he can’t take it to another level or doesn’t need to but in the same breath are saying he did “enough.” Well if he just did “enough” to beat a 2 win team, how can you honestly say he doesn’t need to take it to another level? You’re writing the argument for me.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I never said giving up 30 to the Texans was a good game by the defense.

No, but you still think it was only Burrow's fault we lost.

(11-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: But going 2 quarters, 6 drives and 32 yards after the first TD had just as much, if not more to do with the loss than the defense.  

I never said the offense didn't have its share of the blame in this. They didn't have to wait until the end of the 4th to score points. But the fact remains that the Bengals offense still ended up tying the game only for the defense to give up more big plays leading to a walk off FG win for the Texans. And according to you, it's only Burrow's fault for the loss.

(11-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: You’re the one who said we only lost because the defense sucked. I’m just pointing out how wrong you were. Don’t get defensive because of it.

That's not what I said. What I said was that YOU were wrong in saying that Burrow is to blame for being 3-16 when the opposing team scores more than 24 points. I was providing context that you were ignoring that maybe the defense has some, if not more blame in that 3-16 record.

(11-14-2023, 07:07 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: This post is littered with excuses. Many of which I agree with, but let me ask you this- if the supposed top 2 QB has to have excuses for his play pretty much his entire career, is he really top 2?

Except Burrow doesn't need the excuses. People don't consider him a top QB because of the excuses. They do so because of his stats and winning record. 

[*PhilHos*]

(11-14-2023, 07:11 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Are we just expecting “enough” from our 250 mil QB? That’s what I’m arguing. Y’all are saying he can’t take it to another level or doesn’t need to but in the same breath are saying he did “enough.” Well if he just did “enough” to beat a 2 win team, how can you honestly say he doesn’t need to take it to another level? You’re writing the argument for me.

You have me confused with people taking umbrage at your OP. I'm not arguing if Burrow needs to do better. If you ask him, I'm sure he'll say he does.

I have only argued against the points I've quoted you on. If you're incapable of having multiple discussions within one thread, I understand and I'll end the discussion. 

[007BengalsFan]

(11-14-2023, 07:09 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Folks keep saying we have all these WR weapons.  What makes them weapons?  We currently have 1 receiver, Chase, 4th in the top 25 in the league. Next is Boyd at 27. Higgins is 90th.

Maybe we should have traded our 90th WR in the spring like many fans were saying we should do.  Do you pay the 90th WR 23 million dollars in the offseason?  We will see.

[Rubekahn29]

(11-14-2023, 07:19 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, but you still think it was only Burrow's fault we lost.


I never said the offense didn't have its share of the blame in this. They didn't have to wait until the end of the 4th to score points. But the fact remains that the Bengals offense still ended up tying the game only for the defense to give up more big plays leading to a walk off FG win for the Texans. And according to you, it's only Burrow's fault for the loss.


That's not what I said. What I said was that YOU were wrong in saying that Burrow is to blame for being 3-16 when the opposing team scores more than 24 points. I was providing context that you were ignoring that maybe the defense has some, if not more blame in that 3-16 record.


Except Burrow doesn't need the excuses. People don't consider him a top QB because of the excuses. They do so because of his stats and winning record. 

I have not once ONLY blamed Burrow. I am implying he needs to be better which apparently is unfathomable.


I’m just going to say this one more time. When the Eagles have 3 wins when their defense gives up more than 24 points this season, Mahomes had 5 wins last year and Stroud has 2 in the last 2 games- blaming it more on the defense and ignoring that you have a 250 millions QB who absolutely CANT win shootouts is a problem.

I’m done with this argument. You keep thinking Burrow is untouchable and absolutely can’t take it to another level- but I’ll tell you this. If he DOESNT take it to another level- we will be outside looking in this year. Sorry, a Top 2 defense with an above average or at least average roster doesn’t sit outside the playoffs,

[Rubekahn29]

(11-14-2023, 07:21 PM)PhilHos Wrote: You have me confused with people taking umbrage at your OP. I'm not arguing if Burrow needs to do better. If you ask him, I'm sure he'll say he does.

I have only argued against the points I've quoted you on. If you're incapable of having multiple discussions within one thread, I understand and I'll end the discussion. 

Nice way to skirt around the OP. You consistently said that I am only blaming Burrow, which Implies Burrow should not be blamed and you don’t think he should take it to another level. Thanks again for proving my point. You jumped in thinking you were the smartest guy in the room only to prove yourself wrong.

[RegularGuy22]

Can Burrow play better? Sure he can and so can every player on the team. He himself even says this in all his press conf. We gotta keep getting better every day to that effect.

[casear2727]

(11-14-2023, 07:07 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If we had Bates, Bell and Apple on the roster, this defense would be much better.  If you let guys like that walk dont complain about Lou's defense not playing as well as they did last year.  The Bengals management has decided to let defensive players walk so they can sign the offensive guys to big contracts.  Thats fine but if you are going to weaken the defense to pay the guys on offense, the offense needs to step up and carry the team.  Dont blame Lou when you take away the talent he has to work with.

Seriously?   A backup CB and 2 safeties?   It would be beyond STUPID to pay Bates with Dax here. 

It would be stupid to pay Apple and limit Turners growth.

This is the NFL.  Players leave teams every year. 

Besides our run defense has been horrid.

Crying about safeties that have been gone for 8 months now when our biggest needs are TE, RB, DL doesn't make any sense.

[007BengalsFan]

(11-14-2023, 07:05 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Mahomes has Kelcie. Burrow has Chase so it’s a wash.  Mahomes has 3 better IOL than us by a mile. Surely you aren’t saying Tee & Boyd make up for that? I think it’s a wash about supporting casts. But I also think Burrow and Mahomes are close.

Surely you're not trying to claim Mahomes has the weapons Burrow has?   Is everyone now going to claim Tee isnt a #1 elite WR?  That's all we have been hearing from some fans why Tee should be paid like a top 10 WR.  "Tee is great, Tee is one of the best in the NFL, Tee is top 10.  We should tag him and pay him 23 million" Now we dismiss Tee and downplay his ability?  The last couple of years various media outlets have recognized the Bengals as having one the top WRs group in the NFL if not the #1.  Burrow has a lot more talent around him than Mahomes.  and Chase vs Kelce isnt a wash.  Nobody is picking Kelce over Chase.  Nobody is paying Kelce what Chase will be paid.

As far as the offensive line, the Bengals went out an took Mahomes Pro Bowl RT from him and now Mahomes has Donovan Smith.  At RT Mahomes has Jawaan Taylor who isnt as good as Jonah Williams.  Both Brown and Williams have a higher PFF grade than Mahomes tackles so the Bengals have the advantage at tackles.  Mahomes has a higher rated inside line.  Burrow is QB of an offense stacked with talent yet Burrow pulls a disappearing act quite often.  The Bengals offense is "now you see it, now you dont"  Burrow needs to do a better job.  You want to paid like you are the top dog in the NFL? Play like it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-14-2023, 07:09 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Folks keep saying we have all these WR weapons. What makes them weapons? We currently have 1 receiver, Chase, 4th in the top 25 in the league. Next is Boyd at 27. Higgins is 90th.

I was going to say. The WR’s outside of Chase have been nothing to write home about this season. Tee has been terrible or hurt outside of 1 game, and the only big game from Boyd was bookended with 2 massive drops (one of which arguably cost us the game).

Burrow has thrown as many TD’s to guys like Irwin, Yoshi, and Irv Smith as he has to Tee and Boyd.