Draft Bowers

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2023, 05:05 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: If you're looking for immediate impact, Newton probably won't provide it in year 1.  DTs generally take some time to hit their stride.

Bowers is definitely elite and would have an immediate impact on this team.  Teams would have to account for him down the seam and underneath.  He provides something this team has never had.

Here's the thing about drafting a weapon like Bowers.  Utilizing him properly would mean that the offense would have to deviate from what they typically do, which is heavily target the 3 WRs.  Assuming that Zac and Joe buy into the idea of shifting a portion of the focus to TE, Bowers would only be one viable option at that position.  What if he got injured, or was slow to develop?  Seems like the tell will be in free agency.  If the Bengals pick up a veteran TE that is both blocking and receiving proficient, perhaps drafting a top talent at that spot for the future may be possible.

[Hammerstripes]

(12-01-2023, 05:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's the thing about drafting a weapon like Bowers.  Utilizing him properly would mean that the offense would have to deviate from what they typically do, which is heavily target the 3 WRs.  Assuming that Zac and Joe buy into the idea of shifting a portion of the focus to TE, Bowers would only be one viable option at that position.  What if he got injured, or was slow to develop?  Seems like the tell will be in free agency.  If the Bengals pick up a veteran TE that is both blocking and receiving proficient, perhaps drafting a top talent at that spot for the future may be possible.

Possibly.  I'm guessing Boyd won't be back, so they could really give him those routes over the middle and ask him to do the same things that Boyd did without changing much.  

I don't think this will be an issue though, I truly think he'll be off the board by the time we pick.

[Jpoore]

(12-01-2023, 05:05 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: If you're looking for immediate impact, Newton probably won't provide it in year 1.  DTs generally take some time to hit their stride.

Bowers is definitely elite and would have an immediate impact on this team.  Teams would have to account for him down the seam and underneath.  He provides something this team has never had.

He’s a great pass catcher sure. But again will they utilize him? Bengals don’t generally target middle of the field a ton. And they don’t utilize te. Period. Value isn’t there for me when it’s really not a need since we don’t utilize them.-and if we’re talking slow to develop the slowest developing position is te. DT generally provides some juice from the jump. Also if we’re talking bowers in rd1, or say Cade stover in rd3, it stover for me as they would provide similar things for this offense. Bowers better run after catch but stover has better run blocking by a significant margin and both have great hands and route running. Or whatever rd3 te you think. They just need a good one. Elite one would be wasted in our offense especially with DT being a much much higher need.

(12-01-2023, 05:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's the thing about drafting a weapon like Bowers.  Utilizing him properly would mean that the offense would have to deviate from what they typically do, which is heavily target the 3 WRs.  Assuming that Zac and Joe buy into the idea of shifting a portion of the focus to TE, Bowers would only be one viable option at that position.  What if he got injured, or was slow to develop?  Seems like the tell will be in free agency.  If the Bengals pick up a veteran TE that is both blocking and receiving proficient, perhaps drafting a top talent at that spot for the future may be possible.

Exactly. They not not changing what they do. And te is EXTREMELY slow to develop

[Whatever]

(12-01-2023, 05:45 PM)Jpoore Wrote: He’s a great pass catcher sure. But again will they utilize him? Bengals don’t generally target middle of the field a ton. And they don’t utilize te. Period.  Value isn’t there for me when it’s really not a need since we don’t utilize them.-and if we’re talking slow to develop the slowest developing position is te. DT generally provides some juice from the jump. Also if we’re talking bowers in rd1, or say Cade stover in rd3, it stover for me as they would provide similar things for this offense. Bowers better run after catch but stover has better run blocking by a significant margin and both have great hands and route running. Or whatever rd3 te you think. They just need a good one. Elite one would be wasted in our offense especially with DT being a much much higher need.
Exactly. They not not changing what they do. And te is EXTREMELY slow to develop

It's a myth that we don't utilize the TE.  Hurst got 68 targets in '22(15th most among TE's)and Uzomah 63 in '21.  

TE's and DT's usually take at least a year to get up to speed, though if you're taking either in the Top 10, you should expect more immediate results.  I don't see how this is a particular argument for one over the other.

Other things to consider is that it's a much better FA and draft class class for DT's than TE's.  There's currently 14 DT's in the Top 100 prospects compared to only 3 TE's. You can get a DT later in this draft.  Pass on Bowers and you may not get a TE. Also, as I've pointed out in another thread, we've spent our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks the last two drafts on defense.  I don't think we should expect D to be a draft priority when we have one starter in a contract and he plays a position we can easily fill in FA.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-28-2023, 03:34 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I think Bowers would be more valuable than Tee or actually any X receiver that we could draft or find in free agency.

He'd occupy safeties in the middle of the field and also keep backers occupied. He'd also make it easier for Burrow because Burrow wouldn't have to look all the way to the other side of the field to find his #2 target.

He'd also be a great safety outlet for Burrow because, yes, our line should be improved with firing Pollack and drafting or signing free agents, but it's doubtful that they'll suddenly be elite and teams are investing in the pass rush more than ever because it's a passing league.

I would be all for drafting a lineman early if this were a strong class for linemen (tackles), but it's not, meaning that we'd be passing on a game-changer for us and drafting a guy that might not make much of a difference.

We'll be picking in the top ten, and we'll want a player that will make an impact, and no lineman in this draft could possibly make anywhere near as big of a difference as Bowers would.

Am I the only one on the Bowers train?

I am on it with you Brad. Brock Bowers is a stud and should be a stud in the NFL. He is about as sure of a thing as a 1st round pick 
could be honestly. He is a natural pass catcher with elite athleticism. Brock would make an immediate impact in our Offense because 
he has a knack for getting open and Burrow hits the open guy. Our TE's just have had trouble getting open besides Hudson.

I hope we get a RT and a LG in FA to open up the Draft so we can select either Brock Bowers or my other favorite Rome Odunze the 
stud 6'3" WR out of Washington.

[Jpoore]

(12-01-2023, 06:34 PM)Whatever Wrote: It's a myth that we don't utilize the TE.  Hurst got 68 targets in '22(15th most among TE's)and Uzomah 63 in '21.  

TE's and DT's usually take at least a year to get up to speed, though if you're taking either in the Top 10, you should expect more immediate results.  I don't see how this is a particular argument for one over the other.

Other things to consider is that it's a much better FA and draft class class for DT's than TE's.  There's currently 14 DT's in the Top 100 prospects compared to only 3 TE's. You can get a DT later in this draft.  Pass on Bowers and you may not get a TE. Also, as I've pointed out in another thread, we've spent our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks the last two drafts on defense.  I don't think we should expect D to be a draft priority when we have one starter in a contract and he plays a position we can easily fill in FA.  

They got targets but they were dump offs/safety valves. How many were 10+ yards down the field? I’d guess single digits. And again te isn’t important as we’ve shown for the last couple years, but DT is by far our weakest position.

[BFritz21]

(12-01-2023, 07:01 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am on it with you Brad. Brock Bowers is a stud and should be a stud in the NFL. He is about as sure of a thing as a 1st round pick 
could be honestly. He is a natural pass catcher with elite athleticism. Brock would make an immediate impact in our Offense because 
he has a knack for getting open and Burrow hits the open guy. Our TE's just have had trouble getting open besides Hudson.

I hope we get a RT and a LG in FA to open up the Draft so we can select either Brock Bowers or my other favorite Rome Odunze the 
stud 6'3" WR out of Washington.

We thought we fixed the line and I was pumped but our interior o line is getting destroyed.

Rome would be a hell of a weapon to have and would make the defense cover more of the field, but I just feel Browers can make the defense have to cover so much more of the field and occupy more defenders in the center of the field and up the seam, as well being a quicker transition from Chase off the first read. 

I know you could say that Odunze would also help by forcing the defense to keep a safety back, but I'd just love for this team to finally have a tight end like Bowers.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2023, 08:39 PM)Jpoore Wrote: They got targets but they were dump offs/safety valves. How many were 10+ yards down the field? I’d guess single digits. And again te isn’t important as we’ve shown for the last couple years, but DT is by far our weakest position.

Currently our starters are actually pretty darn good.  It's the backups that the team has failed to develop that have me worried.  Might be time to turn over the DL coach position, as well as the OL coach position.

[Whatever]

(12-01-2023, 08:39 PM)Jpoore Wrote: They got targets but they were dump offs/safety valves. How many were 10+ yards down the field? I’d guess single digits. And again te isn’t important as we’ve shown for the last couple years, but DT is by far our weakest position.

They weren't used in any way similar to one another.  Hurst ran more out routes.  Uzomah was typically used on seam routes(which are downfield throws) and TE screens.  Uzomah averaged 10 yards a catch, for Pete's sake.

TE is by far our weakest position group.  We have no quality starter and no quality depth.  At DT, we have one good starter and one decent starter.  Hell, RB is weaker than DT.  G is weaker than DT, too.  

I don't know how you can argue TE isn't important, either.  Our offense has underperformed this year and lack of production from that group is one of the issues.  

Beyond that, Bowers is a Top 5 prospect in this draft, and you would hypothetically pass on him for the #15 prospect?  That's insane.

[Jpoore]

(12-01-2023, 08:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Currently our starters are actually pretty darn good.  It's the backups that the team has failed to develop that have me worried.  Might be time to turn over the DL coach position, as well as the OL coach position.

Massively disagree. Reader is good for what he is but we really lack interior pass rush. Carter was looked at as a huge tech at the time. Not sure that’s on the DL coach. Haven’t really put much into the IDL.

(12-01-2023, 11:46 PM)Whatever Wrote: They weren't used in any way similar to one another.  Hurst ran more out routes.  Uzomah was typically used on seam routes(which are downfield throws) and TE screens.  Uzomah averaged 10 yards a catch, for Pete's sake.

TE is by far our weakest position group.  We have no quality starter and no quality depth.  At DT, we have one good starter and one decent starter.  Hell, RB is weaker than DT.  G is weaker than DT, too.  

I don't know how you can argue TE isn't important, either.  Our offense has underperformed this year and lack of production from that group is one of the issues.  

Beyond that, Bowers is a Top 5 prospect in this draft, and you would hypothetically pass on him for the #15 prospect?  That's insane.

Our offense under preformed bc burrow wasn’t healthy. Period. When healthy our offense averaged something like 27.8 points a game. It didn’t underperform. Te isn’t utilized in this offense and as such should not be given premium picks when. We have more glaring needs. And if we’re just going off prospects, we should draft qb if Caleb Williams fell right? No. You draft bpa at position of need. Take Hendrickson off this dline, do we even have 10 sacks as a unit? No. We NEED interior pass rush. It has been our biggest need since Larry o left. Why do you think we have 0 interior pass rush? Also the gap between bowers and newton isn’t that far off.

[Whatever]

(12-02-2023, 02:36 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Massively disagree. Reader is good for what he is but we really lack interior pass rush. Carter was looked at as a huge tech at the time. Not sure that’s on the DL coach. Haven’t really put much into the IDL.
Our offense under preformed bc burrow wasn’t healthy. Period. When healthy our offense averaged something like 27.8 points a game. It didn’t underperform. Te isn’t utilized in this offense and as such should not be given premium picks when. We have more glaring needs. And if we’re just going off prospects, we should draft qb if Caleb Williams fell right? No. You draft bpa at position of need. Take Hendrickson off this dline, do we even have 10 sacks as a unit? No. We NEED interior pass rush. It has been our biggest need since Larry o left. Why do you think we have 0 interior pass rush? Also the gap between bowers and newton isn’t that far off.

You cannot argue "TE isn't used in this offense" when our starting TE last year was 15th in the league in targets, which is slightly above average usage.  

Beyond that, our WR2 and WR3 are both slated to hit UFA, which means we are going to need talented targets in the passing game.

Are you seriously looking at what our projected draft needs actually are?  We likely lose Jonah, so T is a need.  We likely lose Boyd and/or Higgins, so WR is a need.  Our top 3 TE's are all UFA's, so TE is a need.  Reader and Tupou are both UFA's, so NT is a need, but Newton is a 3 tech, which makes him a luxury pick, not a need.  

So you're talking BPA at a position of need, but Newton doesn't play a position of need and he won't be the BPA at our pick, so there's absolutely no reason to even consider him.  It would be nice to upgrade at 3T, but there are plenty of guys in FA or later in the draft that can do that.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-01-2023, 08:41 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: We thought we fixed the line and I was pumped but our interior o line is getting destroyed.

Rome would be a hell of a weapon to have and would make the defense cover more of the field, but I just feel Browers can make the defense have to cover so much more of the field and occupy more defenders in the center of the field and up the seam, as well being a quicker transition from Chase off the first read. 

I know you could say that Odunze would also help by forcing the defense to keep a safety back, but I'd just love for this team to finally have a tight end like Bowers.

Definitely understand. Tee and Boyd will be gone though and we don't value the TE as much as we should.

I cannot pick between Rome and Brock honestly, would love either player.

[*Synric*]

You never see that amount of double and triple coverage on a TE like last nights Georgia Alabama game lol. Really nice game blocking.

[Jpoore]

(12-02-2023, 04:44 PM)Whatever Wrote: You cannot argue "TE isn't used in this offense" when our starting TE last year was 15th in the league in targets, which is slightly above average usage.  

Beyond that, our WR2 and WR3 are both slated to hit UFA, which means we are going to need talented targets in the passing game.

Are you seriously looking at what our projected draft needs actually are?  We likely lose Jonah, so T is a need.  We likely lose Boyd and/or Higgins, so WR is a need.  Our top 3 TE's are all UFA's, so TE is a need.  Reader and Tupou are both UFA's, so NT is a need, but Newton is a 3 tech, which makes him a luxury pick, not a need.  

So you're talking BPA at a position of need, but Newton doesn't play a position of need and he won't be the BPA at our pick, so there's absolutely no reason to even consider him.  It would be nice to upgrade at 3T, but there are plenty of guys in FA or later in the draft that can do that.  

A. Newton can play NT or 3-tech, also the fact 3 tech isn’t our top need is laughable. Also, hurst targets were mainly dump-offs/screens. Not like it was a focal point and it won’t be. We already drafted our wr3 replacement. Tee will be here at minimum another year. Yes te is a need but not a high pick need. I still think we resign Jonah assuming he wants to play RT. He would easily be bpa at our biggest position of need.

[*Synric*]

(12-04-2023, 12:29 AM)Jpoore Wrote: A. Newton can play NT or 3-tech, also the fact 3 tech isn’t our top need is laughable. Also, hurst targets were mainly dump-offs/screens. Not like it was a focal point and it won’t be. We already drafted our wr3 replacement. Tee will be here at minimum another year. Yes te is a need but not a high pick need. I still think we resign Jonah assuming he wants to play RT. He would easily be bpa at our biggest position of need.

No. Jer'zhan Newton is around 6'2 295 he is not a nose tackle. Newton would play  2i - 5T but he probabaly won't have the length to stay at 5T. He may line up at 1T in rabbit packages.




I'm just now getting deep into the class but there are some really good Defensive Tackle prospects this year. Here's a few off thr top of my head that are under tackles. 

Mehki Wingo
Ruke Orhorhoro
Kris Jenkins
Michael Hall
Leonard Taylor
Brandon Dorlus
Howard Cross
Byron Murphy



The Tight End Class well ugh it's Brock Bowers (top 15), Cade Stover, and Ja'Tavion Sanders. I know alot of people are going to say Stover but I think with how bad rhe class is he could easily go late second round.

[*bengalfan74*]

I'd love to get Bowers, however. I feel we have to many other needs to draft a TE (which isn't really a featured part of our O) that high. In my mind the Oline, Dline, and RB are much bigger concerns. Of course I hope some of our needs are addressed in free agency.

[*Synric*]

(12-04-2023, 09:38 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'd love to get Bowers, however. I feel we have to many other needs to draft a TE (which isn't really a featured part of our O) that high. In my mind the Oline, Dline, and RB are much bigger concerns. Of course I hope some of our needs are addressed in free agency.

Yes Bengals have needs TE is one also. It's not about drafting a TE in round 1 it's about at what point does the talent of Brock Bowers make it impossible to pass up.

If both top tackles are gone in Alt and Fashanu are you going to draft the 3rd highest tackle? Are you going to take a 3T or a corner to rotate with the Bengals starters? Or will you take the blue chip TE/Slot Receiver prospect?

If the Bengals are picking top 10 which is possible My board would look something like Marvin Harrison Jr, Joe Alt, Olu Fashanu, Brock Bowers, Trade Back, Jer'zhan Newton.

[Jpoore]

(12-04-2023, 08:31 AM)Synric Wrote: No. Jer'zhan Newton is around 6'2 295 he is not a nose tackle. Newton would play  2i - 5T but he probabaly won't have the length to stay at 5T. He may line up at 1T in rabbit packages.




I'm just now getting deep into the class but there are some really good Defensive Tackle prospects this year. Here's a few off thr top of my head that are under tackles. 

Mehki Wingo
Ruke Orhorhoro
Kris Jenkins
Michael Hall
Leonard Taylor
Brandon Dorlus
Howard Cross
Byron Murphy



The Tight End Class well ugh it's Brock Bowers (top 15), Cade Stover, and Ja'Tavion Sanders. I know alot of people are going to say Stover but I think with how bad rhe class is he could easily go late second round.

Yes Newton natural position would be 3-tech but he could play NT in a pinch. Newton had ELITE movement and flexibility,also I firmly believe tyliek Williams finishes as dt2. Also, you’re massively hating on te class. There some damn good te. At the end of day though I believe 3-tech in rds1-2 and te in 3 benefit us much more than te in 1.

[Jpoore]

(12-04-2023, 10:02 AM)Synric Wrote: Yes Bengals have needs TE is one also. It's not about drafting a TE in round 1 it's about at what point does the talent of Brock Bowers make it impossible to pass up.

If both top tackles are gone in Alt and Fashanu are you going to draft the 3rd highest tackle? Are you going to take a 3T or a corner to rotate with the Bengals starters? Or will you take the blue chip TE/Slot Receiver prospect?

If the Bengals are picking top 10 which is possible My board would look something like Marvin Harrison Jr, Joe Alt, Olu Fashanu, Brock Bowers, Trade Back, Jer'zhan Newton.

Whispers* bowers would be in a rotation year 1 too

[Whatever]

(12-04-2023, 01:03 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Yes Newton natural position would be 3-tech but he could play NT in a pinch. Newton had ELITE movement and flexibility,also I firmly believe tyliek Williams finishes as dt2. Also, you’re massively hating on te class. There some damn good te. At the end of day though I believe 3-tech in rds1-2 and te in 3 benefit us much more than te in 1.

Saying Newton can play NT in a pinch is like saying Cam Sample can play NT in a pinch.  While technically true, they'd just get dominated.  The NT has to play multiple gaps and eat double teams.  Newton is a one gap player who lacks the length, size, and power to eat double teams.  

There's only 2 TE's in the Top 100 prospects and only 5 in the Top 150.  This TE class has zero depth at all.  It's Bowers, then a cliff ledge.  You seriously going to roll into Round 3 praying you can reach for the #103 overall prospect in Stover with a pick that's going to be in the 70's?