The "Fire Zach" stuff is WEIRD

[Mer]

I'd love to see them come out in a wishbone formation for the first series and power run it every play.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(12-01-2023, 02:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: If Zach Taylor was fired he would be one of the first coaches hired during the coaching carousel. The cultural turn around of this organization is something we have taken for granted lately, but MANY organizations would die to have him come do it for them.

And that's all that needs to be said: continuity is paramount, nowadays

[WeezyBengal]

(12-01-2023, 02:09 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A lack of belief that Zac will fire himself as playcaller and put an end to the 6-man think tank he's built to support it.

I don't particularly want him gone as HC, but will he willingly take his hands off the offense and bring in someone new to be the actual OC?

No one can speak on the playcalling. None of us have any idea what Burrow is checking to half the time. Burrow pulls RPOs ALL THE TIME. He checks and changes plays ALL THE TIME. 

Burrow is the general out there. If you don't like how much we run or think Burrow passes too much, that's just as much (or if not more) on JB than ZT.

[WeezyBengal]

(12-01-2023, 02:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The offense has looked progressively worse every year since the SB year as teams realized our SB offense was "Burrow do amazing things and Chase burn guys". The SB year is getting further away, next year it'll have been 3 years since the Bengals offense actually looked like it actually had a top-3 QB and the best WR trio in the NFL. Instead now we consistently get to see 30+ game minute stretches of scoring 0-3 points.

You are completely wrong. They were 7th in points, fourth in offensive DVOA, and fifth in EPA last year. They were one of the better offenses in the NFL. 

[*Nately120*]

(12-01-2023, 02:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: If Zach Taylor was fired he would be one of the first coaches hired during the coaching carousel. The cultural turn around of this organization is something we have taken for granted lately, but MANY organizations would die to have him come do it for them.

I feel like an organization getting ZT without Burrow is like Atlantic Records signing Ringo Starr in the mid 70s...not bad, but not The Beatles, either.

If I were David Tepper I'd give a newly fired ZT the HC job, but I'd also brace myself for questions about his record sans Burrow and pointing out that Bryce Young ain't Burrow.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-01-2023, 12:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Seriously, what are we doing? The fire Zach stuff makes our fanbase look incredibly dumb.

The guy has given us more playoff success the past two years than I have had in my ENTIRE lifetime. One Super Bowl appearance, two AFC Championship games, 5 playoff wins. Were we really expecting to go places this year with Browning as our QB? I mean the season is chalked up as a loss as soon as Burrow's ligament exploded. We aren't winning anything with him the same way the Colts weren't winning anything without Peyton Manning.

Is he perfect? No. But no head coach is. People bag on his offense (although they've been REALLY good when Joe is healthy) but...

his offense is a by product of what BURROW likes to do as a QB. It's THEIR offense. It's a collaboration between ZT, Callahan, and Burrow. It won't change unless Burrow want's it to change...and it actually works when Burrow is healthy.

I guess I just don't get why everyone is so emotional and wants to fire ZT all of the sudden. Sure there are some changes that the team needs to make (running the ball better, protecting Joe better, etc.) but firing a coach seems a bit extreme and emotional and weird to me.

Are people (myself included) being emotional? Sure. But I question the emotion going the other way. When people express a desire to bring in an OC or at a minimum have Callahan call the plays why do people get so upset by that and say they're calling for Taylor to be fired? I'm sure it has been said and I've missed it but all I have said or seen anyone say is have an OC call plays. I like Taylor as a coach. We've do all those great things but let's face it the defense has carried more of a load in the bulk of our success. Which is fine it's a team sport but the offense needs to take some steps forward. Mainly in the run game and we haven't seen it in 5 years with Taylor no matter who the QB is that is starting. People want to point to Mixon with his 2 ypc last game. Fine Mixon sucks why do we refuse to give any other RB on the roster a chance. Again I like Taylor but I think if we're being honest with ourselves if we were forced to pick something we didn't like we would all say the playcalling. So why not try and improve our team?

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-01-2023, 03:13 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: No one can speak on the playcalling. None of us have any idea what Burrow is checking to half the time. Burrow pulls RPOs ALL THE TIME. He checks and changes plays ALL THE TIME. 

Burrow is the general out there. If you don't like how much we run or think Burrow passes too much, that's just as much (or if not more) on JB than ZT.

All true. But Taylor's very 1st game ad our head coach. Coming into the season the prior year our defense was trash, Dalton was (not really sure what yo say) good but with limitations I guess and we had the #4 running back in the NFL and 2nd in YPC at 4.9. What was are strategy going into Seattle week 1 with AJ Green out as well? To run it 15 times and have Dalton throw it 51 times. 51!!! Now Mixon had 6 of those carries for only 10 yards so it would be fair to say that we couldn't run so we had to throw. But Mixon had several of those terrible games the 1st half of the season only to be the 2nd best back in the league the 2nd half. So it would seem we changed something scheme or otherwise. So in games where we struggle to run now I have to wonder what the underlying issues are. My point is regardless of QB Taylor's offenses are consistently 2 to 1 throw vs pass.

[Whatever]

(12-01-2023, 02:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who are "they", can you name them?  I've seen a lot of fans wanting an offense that can move the ball on the ground and mix in a little PA, but I've seen literally no one calling for a "90s style offense".  Dropping back in shotgun and slinging it is great, until it don't work any more.  Then, you MUST have an alternative plan that works if you want to be a consistent winner and compete for championships in the NFL.

I think we both know forum rules prevent us from publicly calling out other posters.  

The current reality is we don't have the personnel to run anything else effectively.  Want to run 12 from under center?  Well, our TE's suck.  Want to run 21 from under center?  Well, our RB's suck, too.  

It's no small wonder that the club underperformed when...

Our star QB was hobbled with a soft tissue injury.

Our WR2 has been hurt and UDFA's and Day 3 picks have struggled to pick up the slack.

The OL has underperformed compared to the resources invested in it(draft picks and FA $'s).

We tried another one year rental on a bust TE and he's been garbage.  Our reserves suck because we haven't drafted one since '19 and continue to kick the can down the road instead of addressing the issues.

We tried to replace a proven RB2 with a 5th round pick and that blew up in our face, plus Mixon continues to show his age.  Another position group where we just continue to kick the can down the road instead of addressing the issues.

Instead of plugging holes on offense, we spent our 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round picks in the last two drafts on defense to prepare for upcoming expiring contracts and the young players on the back end  are struggling in a complex defense. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(12-01-2023, 03:20 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Are people (myself included) being emotional? Sure. But I question the emotion going the other way. When people express a desire to bring in an OC or at a minimum have Callahan call the plays why do people get so upset by that and say they're calling for Taylor to be fired? I'm sure it has been said and I've missed it but all I have said or seen anyone say is have an OC call plays. I like Taylor as a coach. We've do all those great things but let's face it the defense has carried more of a load in the bulk of our success. Which is fine it's a team sport but the offense needs to take some steps forward. Mainly in the run game and we haven't seen it in 5 years with Taylor no matter who the QB is that is starting. People want to point to Mixon with his 2 ypc last game. Fine Mixon sucks why do we refuse to give any other RB on the roster a chance. Again I like Taylor but I think if we're being honest with ourselves if we were forced to pick something we didn't like we would all say the playcalling. So why not try and improve our team?

That has NEVER been insinuated.

[*bfine32*]

Millennials

[*Nately120*]

(12-01-2023, 03:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Millennials

Good point.  We need to replace millennial Zac Taylor with boomer Bill Bellyache.  His no-nonsense style will make us gritty winners.  ZT probably stops practice to eat tofu and protest about people nuking the whales, or something. 

[XenoMorph]

(12-01-2023, 12:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Seriously, what are we doing? The fire Zach stuff makes our fanbase look incredibly dumb.

The guy has given us more playoff success the past two years than I have had in my ENTIRE lifetime. One Super Bowl appearance, two AFC Championship games, 5 playoff wins. Were we really expecting to go places this year with Browning as our QB? I mean the season is chalked up as a loss as soon as Burrow's ligament exploded. We aren't winning anything with him the same way the Colts weren't winning anything without Peyton Manning.

Is he perfect? No. But no head coach is. People bag on his offense (although they've been REALLY good when Joe is healthy) but...

his offense is a by product of what BURROW likes to do as a QB. It's THEIR offense. It's a collaboration between ZT, Callahan, and Burrow. It won't change unless Burrow want's it to change...and it actually works when Burrow is healthy.

I guess I just don't get why everyone is so emotional and wants to fire ZT all of the sudden. Sure there are some changes that the team needs to make (running the ball better, protecting Joe better, etc.) but firing a coach seems a bit extreme and emotional and weird to me.

is it Zach doing that though? this isnt all of the sudden for some of us hes very 1 dimensional in his offense

and the changes have been super slow in coming burrow hurt again line playing bad still same OL coach same problems.

[*ochocincos*]

Taylor is a fine HC.

People have been mostly criticizing him for how the offense is operating, especially without Burrow.
Most have not been a big fan of his playcalling and viewing the offense as succeeding because of Burrow, not because of Taylor.

I think there's some credit to those claims, as we've seen how this offense performs with Burrow fully healthy and when not.

I definitely don't want Taylor fired as HC, but I wouldn't be upset if offensive playcalling was given to someone else this/next year either.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2023, 03:42 PM)Whatever Wrote:  

The current reality is we don't have the personnel to run anything else effectively.  Want to run 12 from under center?  Well, our TE's suck.  Want to run 21 from under center?  Well, our RB's suck, too.  

I agree that 21 personnel isn't really a viable option with our current roster, however I could envision a 12 package that could at least open up some avenues to success.  The 12 TEs would have to be Hudson and Sample, as Hudson can get open and catch and Sample can block, but more importantly he can line up at HB or even FB if needed and block effectively.  

[jj22]

I still think Zac is a good HC, and don't want him fired (I do want some fresh eyes on the Offensive staff).

Sooner or later tho, he's going to have to win without Burrow or we just aren't going to be able to keep calling a HC with his non Burrow record a good HC. Especially if we are not giving Burrow the credit for the turnaround.

[WeezyBengal]

(12-01-2023, 03:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Taylor is a fine HC.

People have been mostly criticizing him for how the offense is operating, especially without Burrow.
Most have not been a big fan of his playcalling and viewing the offense as succeeding because of Burrow, not because of Taylor.

I think there's some credit to those claims, as we've seen how this offense performs with Burrow fully healthy and when not.

I definitely don't want Taylor fired as HC, but I wouldn't be upset if offensive playcalling was given to someone else this/next year either.

His QB without Burrow has been who? Jake Browning? 

I mean cmon...it's one thing to have a capable backup or starting QB like Andy Dalton or Tyler Huntley, but this is Jake Browning we are talking about. Dude wouldn't be on any other NFL roster other than the Bengals. 

[depthchart]

(12-01-2023, 04:13 PM)jj22 Wrote: I still think Zac is a good HC, and don't want him fired (I do want some fresh eyes on the Offensive staff).

Sooner or later tho, he's going to have to win without Burrow or we just aren't going to be able to keep calling a HC with his non Burrow record a good HC. Especially if we are not giving Burrow the credit for the turnaround.

Just how much would a Win at 8 and 3 Jacksonville this Monday night help Zac's "non-Burrow record" Reputation ?


Can Zac win ugly or does the offense have to be on point in the win to Boost Zac's reputation should they beat the Jags ?

[Joelist]

Those of us advocating for more under center and more power are just asking that we style the offense to the strengths of the players. Our line is far better at power , going left and going either G-C or G-T. It's just saying let Brown and Volson do their best thing which is blocking downhill and let Cappa pull (which is a strong point of his). And saying that being more effective running as such will help the passing game by making play action more effective is common sense. Likewise feeling that Chuck Sizzle and Yoshi and Chase Brown need more snaps is also common sense - the offense needs speed and all three have jets and also finding out now if we have keepers makes the offseason easier to approach.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-01-2023, 04:22 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: His QB without Burrow has been who? Jake Browning? 

I mean cmon...it's one thing to have a capable backup or starting QB like Andy Dalton or Tyler Huntley, but this is Jake Browning we are talking about. Dude wouldn't be on any other NFL roster other than the Bengals. 

More than just Browning.
Talking about since 2019 when he came in.
Every QB not named Burrow and also when Burrow was hobbled has resulted in poor offensive production.
It's only been when Burrow was completely healthy and on his game has the offense cooked.

The reason for the criticism is Taylor (or any offensive playcaller) should be able to morph the offense as injuries happen, poor performing positions, defense stopping one thing or another, etc.

If Sean McVay can have the Rams operating middle-of-the pack with a 5th round rookie WR (Nacua), Atwell, Higbee, an underperforming Kupp, and their cluster*** of mediocre-at-best RB stable, Taylor should be able to have the offense churning around the same with way better offensive weapons.
Or Shanahan being able to put just about any QB back there with those pass catchers and run game and be a Top 5 offense.

McVay and Shanahan are cream of the crop when it comes to offensive creativeness, I get that, but we should want an offensive playcaller who can be close to that. I don't see that creativity and adaptiveness in the playcalling for the Bengals.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-01-2023, 04:29 PM)depthchart Wrote: Just how much would a Win at 8 and 3 Jacksonville this Monday night help Zac's "non-Burrow record" Reputation ?


Can Zac win ugly or does the offense have to be on point in the win to Boost Zac's reputation should they beat the Jags ?

Not sure about Zac, but a win in any way, shape or fashion should elevate Jake Browning to at least McCarron level royalty in the all-time lore of unlikely Bengal heroes.