Building the trenches

[Whatever]

(09-25-2024, 11:00 AM)Synric Wrote: Side note: The Browns in 2023 went out and paid for a DL like the Bengals did in 2020/21 but so far have been kinda bad drafting DL. Will be interesting to see in a year or so as those contracts and players age.

Steelers though just continue to add good DL and everybody wonders how they haven't had a losing season. 

When you think about the premium draft capital wasted on the DL, it's staggering.  Currently, we have the following Day 1 and 2 picks still on rookie deals...

Ossai(3rd round)
Carter(3rd round)
Murphy(1st round)
Jenkins (2nd round)
Jackson (3rd round)

And 3/4 of our starters were acquired via FA or trade...and not to mention all our Day 3 picks like Sample, Shelvin, Gunter, and Johnson...and our DL is complete trash...

It's the same with the OL.  Waste a bunch of draft capital on guys you can't develop, sign FA's to cover up for your mistakes in the draft, but don't go after the real top tier guys in case the law of averages takes over and one of your draft picks actually develops into a starter.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2024, 12:16 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Why do the bengals have to have a top 5 pick to have a chance at landing a great player?  Many organizations get production from day 2 and 3 picks.  Is it just bad luck?  Idk

They don't have to have a top 5 pick, but it usually turns out better when they do.

[Sled21]

(09-25-2024, 10:10 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You’re kidding yourself if you think a healthy BJ hill and Sheldon rankins make this a top 2 DL.  Between them and Hubbard/Hendrickson, they represent 80% of the DL cap dollars for DL… again second highest in the NFL.

Where did I say that? All I'm saying is it's kind of funny people complain we couldn't stop the run game when we had no DT's.

[*Synric*]

(09-25-2024, 01:05 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Where did I say that? All I'm saying is it's kind of funny people complain we couldn't stop the run game when we had no DT's.

They couldn't stop thr run when Hill and Rankins were on the field either. So that argument goes out the window. 

[Sled21]

(09-25-2024, 11:29 AM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: We were without Rankins, Hill, and Mckinley. Who are the other 2 mystery DTs that we are without? How did Rankins and Hill do stopping the run in their first two games? 

Jenkins playing his first game one handed is four. So ok, 4. Then throw in the fact Sample, who is often moved inside, is out, that's 5.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-25-2024, 12:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: They don't have to have a top 5 pick, but it usually turns out better when they do.

I was surprised just how many top 5 picks they’ve actually had when I looked it up. Some brutal picks in there, too. Really shows just how bad it can set a team back when you miss on such a premium pick.

Chase
Burrow
AJ
Palmer
Justin Smith
Peter Warrick
Akili Smith
Ki-Jana Carter
Dan Wilkinson
John Copeland
Rickey Dixon
Munoz
Jack Thompson
Eddie Edwards
Sherman White
Greg Cook
Bob Johnson

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

Well hopefully the young guys in Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson can grow into studs at 3-tech and Nose Tackle.

I think BJ Hill and Sheldon Rankins are decent, Rankins is a decent pass rusher and BJ is solid. Not showing it yet, but their
careers show this to be true. Losing DJ Reader was huge clearly and we need another pass rusher besides Trey Hendrickson.

Murphy certainly could be this guy once he gets healthy. There may be solutions already here, we will see.

[The D.O.Z.]

Ya know, I’ve given Frank Pollack a lot of grief over the years and deservedly so, in my opinion. But our defensive line coach has been almost as equally inept at developing players too. This looks like it will be year 3 of “No Pass Rush Outside of Hendrickson” and that’s unacceptable. And we’ve thrown draft capital there quite often. I’m hoping Jenkins and McKinley can break the trend but it hasn’t been good there for some time now.

[J24]

The Bengals don't value athleticism in lineman and over value size in lineman. So even when they do draft an athletic lineman (like Zac Carter) they bulk them up to where they're ineffective.

Last season for example we had the worst combined RAS for an offensive Line.

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-25-2024, 01:09 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Jenkins playing his first game one handed is four. So ok, 4. Then throw in the fact Sample, who is often moved inside, is out, that's 5.

Lol I hope you're joking with this explanation. You say we played without 5 DTs. One played, the other isn't a DT. He is a player that has had a handful of 3rd down pass rush snaps from inside. That isn't being down 5 DTs lol. It's being down 3. 

You're coping then making bogus explanations to make yourself feel better. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2024, 04:52 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Lol I hope you're joking with this explanation. You say we played without 5 DTs. One played, the other isn't a DT. He is a player that has had a handful of 3rd down pass rush snaps from inside. That isn't being down 5 DTs lol. It's being down 3. 

You're coping then making bogus explanations to make yourself feel better. 

Even being down the first 3 DTs is an alarming situation, then to have the 4th guy playing with a medical club is further distressing. Why would you try to minimize the dire of the situation with the interior DL, just for the sake of an argumentative "win"?

[casear2727]

(09-25-2024, 01:08 PM)Synric Wrote: They couldn't stop thr run when Hill and Rankins were on the field either. So that argument goes out the window. 

To be fair, the defense only gave up 170 yards rushing in the full game Hill and Rankins played......................

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2024, 08:58 PM)casear2727 Wrote: To be fair, the defense only gave up 170 yards rushing in the full game Hill and Rankins played......................

Domata Peko is currently researching extreme TRT and planning on calling the FO if he gets his fix..

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Even being down the first 3 DTs is an alarming situation, then to have the 4th guy playing with a medical club is further distressing. Why would you try to minimize the dire of the situation with the interior DL, just for the sake of an argumentative "win"?

I think the bengals have done a fair job with the run so far this year. It’s not cowboys level bad. But for being the second highest paid DL room in the nfl…. The production isn’t matching investment. Hopefully everyone can come back healthy, but I still don’t see that to leading to a pass rush that can put stress on a QB.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-26-2024, 09:32 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: I think the bengals have done a fair job with the run so far this year.  It’s not cowboys level bad.  But for being the second highest paid DL room in the nfl…. The production isn’t matching investment.  Hopefully everyone can come back healthy, but I still don’t see that to leading to a pass rush that can put stress on a QB.

What does that even matter? Most of the money is being spent on the starting DEs, Trey gives sack production and Sam isn't playing like himself. The problem is with the interior, the top 4 DTs on the team are or have been sidelined with injuries. You don't think that has a tremendous effect on stopping the run? 

Not that our starting DTs would make many OLs think twice about getting a push on them, but when they see an over the hill guy and a few scrubs in front of them, they start licking their chops.

[*Synric*]

(09-26-2024, 09:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What does that even matter? Most of the money is being spent on the starting DEs, Trey gives sack production and Sam isn't playing like himself. The problem is with the interior, the top 4 DTs on the team are or have been sidelined with injuries. You don't think that has a tremendous effect on stopping the run? 

Not that our starting DTs would make many OLs think twice about getting a push on them, but when they see an over the hill guy and a few scrubs in front of them, they start licking their chops.

How much money the DL is making is a bad argument. It's always more expensive to build an entire starting DL in free agency but if you look at the contracts all but Trey are making middle of the pack money. 

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-25-2024, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Even being down the first 3 DTs is an alarming situation, then to have the 4th guy playing with a medical club is further distressing. Why would you try to minimize the dire of the situation with the interior DL, just for the sake of an argumentative "win"?

Because the point he is trying to make doesn't even make sense. But yes, let's let people throw out factual, and logical inaccuracies and then the guy to point out they are false is the guy just trying to get a "win". 

The OP was attempting to blame our d-line play, particularly our run defense, on us not having our top 5 DTs. That's incorrect for multiple reasons. 

1) With our starting DTs, we have up 160 rush y/game
2) Without our starting DTs, we gave up 108 rush y/game
3) We weren't without our top 5 DTs lol

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-25-2024, 02:26 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Ya know, I’ve given Frank Pollack a lot of grief over the years and deservedly so, in my opinion. But our defensive line coach has been almost as equally inept at developing players too. This looks like it will be year 3 of “No Pass Rush Outside of Hendrickson” and that’s unacceptable. And we’ve thrown draft capital there quite often. I’m hoping Jenkins and McKinley can break the trend but it hasn’t been good there for some time now.

True, Hobby has been doing a poor job with our DL lately for sure. Should of seen something from Ossai or KJ Henry while Sam is hurt.

I like what I see of Cedric Johnson at times though. But you are correct, as bad as Pollack has been here he isn't the problem right now.

(09-25-2024, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Even being down the first 3 DTs is an alarming situation, then to have the 4th guy playing with a medical club is further distressing. Why would you try to minimize the dire of the situation with the interior DL, just for the sake of an argumentative "win"?

Because Lucius is always negative and lives on that shitty hill for some reason. You are correct as usual, it has been a very alarming situation
with both Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson out early, now BJ Hill and Rankins having the hammy injuries and Jenkins having to play with a 
club. Only a negative person would want to die on the argument that we haven't been injured THAT BAD at DT lol

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-26-2024, 01:43 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True, Hobby has been doing a poor job with our DL lately for sure. Should of seen something from Ossai or KJ Henry while Sam is hurt.

I like what I see of Cedric Johnson at times though. But you are correct, as bad as Pollack has been here he isn't the problem right now.


Because Lucius is always negative and lives on that shitty hill for some reason. You are correct as usual, it has been a very alarming situation
with both Kris Jenkins and McKinnley Jackson out early, now BJ Hill and Rankins having the hammy injuries and Jenkins having to play with a 
club. Only a negative person would want to die on the argument that we haven't been injured THAT BAD at DT lol

You think I'm negative because we went back and forth this offseason because I argued there was zero reason to think our rush defense would be better (and I think you said significantly better) than last season when looking at our additions and departures. 

Is it being negative, or is it realistic? 

Once again, you've created a strawman argument and claiming I'm saying things I'm not. I would never argue against our DT position being injured. I would argue that we weren't missing 5 DTs and using that as an excuse doesn't make sense given how poor our rush defense was with our two starters. 

[007BengalsFan]

(09-25-2024, 12:21 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Letting DJ Reader walk wasn’t smart.

I never understood that one.  He was already running on the treadmill looking good for a full recovery when the Bengals let Detroit snatch him up.  Some of our fans acting like Reader wasnt going to play this year.  Im not sure how those fans came to that conclusion.

Meanwhile DJ Reader is playing, helping Detroit win games while Hill and Rankins are the ones standing on the sideline in street clothes watching the games.