Building the trenches

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-26-2024, 02:29 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: You think I'm negative because we went back and forth this offseason because I argued there was zero reason to think our rush defense would be better (and I think you said significantly better) than last season when looking at our additions and departures. 

Is it being negative, or is it realistic? 

Once again, you've created a strawman argument and claiming I'm saying things I'm not. I would never argue against our DT position being injured. I would argue that we weren't missing 5 DTs and using that as an excuse doesn't make sense given how poor our rush defense was with our two starters. 

Kind of hard for my argument to stick with 4 of our DT's out and Cam Sample who played DT at times also out for the year.

To act like these weren't alarming losses is absurd.

[Bengalbug]

(09-26-2024, 10:14 AM)Synric Wrote: How much money the DL is making is a bad argument. It's always more expensive to build an entire starting DL in free agency but if you look at the contracts all but Trey are making middle of the pack money. 

We have two of the top 31 highest paid DTs in the league. Maybe you consider it middle of the pack, but combined with Hendrickson and Hubbard, we spend a ton of money on those 4. Coupled with unproven and middling production behind them, it’s not getting it done.

Hopefully rankins and hill get healthy and turn this around, but the fact is we have the second highest paid defensive line in the nfl. The bengals are not close to being top at stopping the run, or bringing pressure.

There are 64 starting DTs in the nfl. 64 makes around 3,000,000. When you consider most teams carry 4-5, that makes 150ish DTs. We are not paying middle of the pack. We might have middle of the pack DTs, but they are not paid as such.

[*ochocincos*]

When looking at positional spending, note that some teams may be higher or lower because of their normal alignment.
For example, Bengals are 2nd on the list at $60 mill on the DL, but PIT is far lower.
Looking closer, it's because Watt and Highsmith are grouped with the LBs, not the DL, as they run a 3-4.

However, if we look at the defense overall, the Bengals have the 5th highest cap for 2024 at $106 mill.
For offense, they are also 5th highest at $126 mill.
OL specifically they are 8th highest at $44 mill.

Bengals are not getting their money's worth at DL and defense as a whole, arguably also OL.

I get that the Bengals don't have the top-tier-priced guys on their DL or OL, but couldn't one argue they might be better if they paid for just one (more) elite talent instead of a group of mid-tier dudes?

[*Synric*]

(09-27-2024, 01:28 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: We have two of the top 31 highest paid DTs in the league. Maybe you consider it middle of the pack, but combined with Hendrickson and Hubbard, we spend a ton of money on those 4.  Coupled with unproven and middling production behind them, it’s not getting it done.

Hopefully rankins and hill get healthy and turn this around, but the fact is we have the second highest paid defensive line in the nfl.  The bengals are not close to being top at stopping the run, or bringing pressure.  

There are 64 starting DTs in the nfl. 64 makes around 3,000,000. When you consider most teams carry 4-5, that makes 150ish DTs.  We are not paying middle of the pack.  We might have middle of the pack DTs, but they are not paid as such.

You forgot to take out all DTs still on a rookie contracts. The top of the DT Market is 22m to 27m (31 for Chris Jones is an outlier).

Rankins and Hill are being paid around the 3rd teir along with guys like David Onyemata, Grover Stewart, Malik Collins, Zach Sieler. That is middle of the pack DT and Money wise for Free Agent Defensive Tackles.

[BoomerFan]

OK so what if we lean into that and spend even more on our lines?

Notion I am kicking around: Our draft picks are highly valuable at this moment. Our 2025 3rd round pick is essentially a late 2nd rounder if the season ended today. So can we leverage that to trade for 1-2 players who might energize the interior or exterior of our defensive line? I realize we only have $8-$9 million in cap left but maybe you could find a player on their first contract? With so many teams ranked ahead of us as far as run stopping goes there has to be some who would part with some depth for a mid to late rounder. A true nose tackle, defensive end who can get pressure, or even a DT (given how injured we are at the position) would help.

Look I know it isn't the Bengals style but I would hope they are at least looking around and proposing some deals with value/upside for us. There are probably some 1-2 teams (Patriots, Broncos, Bears, Colts, Falcons, Cardinals) who wouldn't say no to a 5 rounder for some redundant guy on their roster. Even a team with a better record might still do a deal like that if they thought it would help them build on this year for the future.

[reuben.ahmed]

(09-27-2024, 11:52 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: OK so what if we lean into that and spend even more on our lines?

Notion I am kicking around: Our draft picks are highly valuable at this moment. Our 2025 3rd round pick is essentially a late 2nd rounder if the season ended today. So can we leverage that to trade for 1-2 players who might energize the interior or exterior of our defensive line? I realize we only have $8-$9 million in cap left but maybe you could find a player on their first contract? With so many teams ranked ahead of us as far as run stopping goes there has to be some who would part with some depth for a mid to late rounder. A true nose tackle, defensive end who can get pressure, or even a DT (given how injured we are at the position) would help.

Look I know it isn't the Bengals style but I would hope they are at least looking around and proposing some deals with value/upside for us. There are probably some 1-2 teams (Patriots, Broncos, Bears, Colts, Falcons, Cardinals) who wouldn't say no to a 5 rounder for some redundant guy on their roster. Even a team with a better record might still do a deal like that if they thought it would help them build on this year for the future.

Do we think Duke Tobin is doing any of that thinking right now or taking it easy and collecting his significantly larger paycheck than us?

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-26-2024, 07:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Kind of hard for my argument to stick with 4 of our DT's out and Cam Sample who played DT at times also out for the year.

To act like these weren't alarming losses is absurd.

It's hard for your argument to stick because 1) we don't have 4 DTs out and 2) our run defense gave up 160 ypg and was worse with our starting DTs playing. So the 3 injuries don't really concern me since our run defense was better with the injuries. What concerns me is how bad the run defense looked with the two starters in the game. I'm not sure whats so hard to comprehend about this. 

Folks are looking for anything to make excuses, I get it. But based on what we've seen the first three weeks, the D-line has not been performing poorly due to injury. It performed better once injuries piled up to the current apex. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-27-2024, 12:51 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: It's hard for your argument to stick because 1) we don't have 4 DTs out and 2) our run defense gave up 160 ypg and was worse with our starting DTs playing. So the 3 injuries don't really concern me since our run defense was better with the injuries. What concerns me is how bad the run defense looked with the two starters in the game. I'm not sure whats so hard to comprehend about this. 

Folks are looking for anything to make excuses, I get it. But based on what we've seen the first three weeks, the D-line has not been performing poorly due to injury. It performed better once injuries piled up to the current apex. 

We had BJ Hill, Rankins, McKinnley Jackson, Cam Sample out (who does slide into DT at times) and Kris Jenkins playing with a club.

We have seen 3 games for God sake. I don't know how you can act like the season is over already and that you have won this argument 
already. We are missing DJ Reader clearly and I didn't want him to leave. But that doesn't mean we cannot get better than being the worst
run stopping Defense in the league which we were last season.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-27-2024, 11:52 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: OK so what if we lean into that and spend even more on our lines?

Notion I am kicking around: Our draft picks are highly valuable at this moment. Our 2025 3rd round pick is essentially a late 2nd rounder if the season ended today. So can we leverage that to trade for 1-2 players who might energize the interior or exterior of our defensive line? I realize we only have $8-$9 million in cap left but maybe you could find a player on their first contract? With so many teams ranked ahead of us as far as run stopping goes there has to be some who would part with some depth for a mid to late rounder. A true nose tackle, defensive end who can get pressure, or even a DT (given how injured we are at the position) would help.

Look I know it isn't the Bengals style but I would hope they are at least looking around and proposing some deals with value/upside for us. There are probably some 1-2 teams (Patriots, Broncos, Bears, Colts, Falcons, Cardinals) who wouldn't say no to a 5 rounder for some redundant guy on their roster. Even a team with a better record might still do a deal like that if they thought it would help them build on this year for the future.

Two points on that notion. First off I can't really see the Bengals sacrificing any draft picks, it's just not their style. Secondly, the Bengals don't need any more redundant guys on the team, they need a difference maker. Difference makers are typically significantly more expensive than a 5th round pick, and then you have to pay him. I'm not trying to rain all over your idea, but it just seems so highly unlikely for the Bengals to make any sort of impactful, midseason trade deal.

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-27-2024, 01:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We had BJ Hill, Rankins, McKinnley Jackson, Cam Sample out (who does slide into DT at times) and Kris Jenkins playing with a club.

We have seen 3 games for God sake. I don't know how you can act like the season is over already and that you have won this argument 
already. We are missing DJ Reader clearly and I didn't want him to leave. But that doesn't mean we cannot get better than being the worst
run stopping Defense in the league which we were last season.

Cam Sample has like 40 career DT snaps on pass rush/3rd down situations. Tell me, how does missing him impact the run defense from a DT perspective? Once again, your strawman arguments. When did I say anything about the season being over? 

Once again, you're full of inaccurate information to frame your narrative. We were 7th worse last year, not the worst. We gave up 126 ypg. We're currently giving up 142 ypg. And we haven't even played the division teams who run the heck out of the ball. 

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

The Bengals needed someone week one, not now three losses later, unless it is a perfect fit on the d-line. To look for a DT to maybe eek out a win week four against a bad team would be something we regret in the future. Don't get me wrong, if there was a magical un stuffing pig out there the Bengalis could get for a 5th rounder, go get him.

Jenkins is getting better and will vastly improve once he loses the club hand.

Murphy should be back any time.

Hubbard is only hurting the team being out there and disappointed Lou hasn't figured out a way to work a 3-3or something different to get the best healthy players on the field on defense.

The Bengals will look much better moving forward, by getting healthy and taking these hard bumps.

I still see them sneaking into the playoffs with the wildcard.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-27-2024, 02:01 PM)Lucius Cincinnatus Wrote: Cam Sample has like 40 career DT snaps on pass rush/3rd down situations. Tell me, how does missing him impact the run defense from a DT perspective? Once again, your strawman arguments. When did I say anything about the season being over? 

Once again, you're full of inaccurate information to frame your narrative. We were 7th worse last year, not the worst. We gave up 126 ypg. We're currently giving up 142 ypg. And we haven't even played the division teams who run the heck out of the ball. 

Cam Sample is a good run stopper, that is how. So is Hubbard when he is healthy, too bad he isn't right now and neither are Rankins, 
BJ Hill, Kris Jenkins (club) or McKinnley Jackson. It is a bare room. We are talking about the trenches, not just the DT's.

I remember us being the worst run stopping Defense at one point last year, sorry about that. It was explosive plays we were the worst
at giving up. I am worried about the Division opponents myself and running the ball all over us. We are going to have to stack the box
sounds like.

[J24]

(09-27-2024, 11:52 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: OK so what if we lean into that and spend even more on our lines?

Notion I am kicking around: Our draft picks are highly valuable at this moment. Our 2025 3rd round pick is essentially a late 2nd rounder if the season ended today. So can we leverage that to trade for 1-2 players who might energize the interior or exterior of our defensive line? I realize we only have $8-$9 million in cap left but maybe you could find a player on their first contract? With so many teams ranked ahead of us as far as run stopping goes there has to be some who would part with some depth for a mid to late rounder. A true nose tackle, defensive end who can get pressure, or even a DT (given how injured we are at the position) would help.

Look I know it isn't the Bengals style but I would hope they are at least looking around and proposing some deals with value/upside for us. There are probably some 1-2 teams (Patriots, Broncos, Bears, Colts, Falcons, Cardinals) who wouldn't say no to a 5 rounder for some redundant guy on their roster. Even a team with a better record might still do a deal like that if they thought it would help them build on this year for the future.

I wouldn't trade a third Rd pick at this point; unless I was confident I could resign said player to a contract extension. 

I might dangle BJ Hill and Hilton in deals though. Considering both are going to be free agents this season.

For example the Eagles need a Nickleback and are deep at DT; so maybe they would do a Hilton for Milton Williams kinda deal?

(09-27-2024, 12:20 PM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: Do we think Duke Tobin is doing any of that thinking right now or taking it easy and collecting his significantly larger paycheck than us?

In Dukes defense; What team is in selling mode right now? Whoever you make a deal with right now is going to be asking for a haul.

(09-27-2024, 01:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Two points on that notion. First off I can't really see the Bengals sacrificing any draft picks, it's just not their style. Secondly, the Bengals don't need any more redundant guys on the team, they need a difference maker. Difference makers are typically significantly more expensive than a 5th round pick, and then you have to pay him. I'm not trying to rain all over your idea, but it just seems so highly unlikely for the Bengals to make any sort of impactful, midseason trade deal.

Kinda agree with this sentiment.

(09-28-2024, 03:00 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Cam Sample is a good run stopper, that is how. So is Hubbard when he is healthy, too bad he isn't right now and neither are Rankins, 
BJ Hill, Kris Jenkins (club) or McKinnley Jackson. It is a bare room. We are talking about the trenches, not just the DT's.

I remember us being the worst run stopping Defense at one point last year, sorry about that. It was explosive plays we were the worst
at giving up. I am worried about the Division opponents myself and running the ball all over us. We are going to have to stack the box
sounds like.

Sample has nice inside out capabilities. I thought he was going to have a 5 to 7 sack season  this year and create havoc as an interior rusher.

The injuries play a part in the disaster against the Commanders but it was also malpractice to go into the season without one established nose tackle on the roster. Probably needed two too be honest with ya. 
This should have always been a redshirt year for McKinnley Jackson and Jenkins.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-28-2024, 07:28 PM)J24 Wrote: Sample has nice inside out capabilities. I thought he was going to have a 5 to 7 sack season  this year and create havoc as an interior rusher.

The injuries play a part in the disaster against the Commanders but it was also malpractice to go into the season without one established nose tackle on the roster. Probably needed two too be honest with ya. 
This should have always been a redshirt year for McKinnley Jackson and Jenkins.

Thought Sample might of had a breakout season this year as well, too bad.

I wanted us to draft McKinnley Jackson but I agree, it is pretty dumb to think he is an automatic replacement for DJ Reader.

He could be down the road as they are a lot alike. Same build, same draft profile pretty much but even Reader wasn't good his rookie season.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Pass block win rate leaders for the season at tackle. Big names. pic.twitter.com/L0qGwTraEb

— Seth Walder (@SethWalder) September 30, 2024

[Sled21]

(09-30-2024, 10:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Pass block win rate leaders for the season at tackle. Big names. pic.twitter.com/L0qGwTraEb

— Seth Walder (@SethWalder) September 30, 2024

That's gotta hurt the "we shoulda drafted Sewell" crowd

[puddycat]

(10-01-2024, 09:08 AM)Sled21 Wrote: That's gotta hurt the "we shoulda drafted Sewell" crowd

Except that run blocking is a thing.

As for the trenches, missing on draft picks has hurt a lot.  It's one thing if a day 1 or day 2 pick doesn't become an eventual starter, it's another if they can't even make the rotation whether lack of ability or injury.  I also think that the Bengals are really bad at cutting (or trading) dead weight on rookie contracts.  Lastly, teams don't seem to take into account that some positions, particularly DL, are in a rotation and draft accordingly.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-30-2024, 10:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Pass block win rate leaders for the season at tackle. Big names. pic.twitter.com/L0qGwTraEb

— Seth Walder (@SethWalder) September 30, 2024

Well done Orlando, nice seeing him come around.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-30-2024, 10:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:

Pass block win rate leaders for the season at tackle. Big names. pic.twitter.com/L0qGwTraEb

— Seth Walder (@SethWalder) September 30, 2024

The thing worth noting about that graphic? Every one of those teams is running a balanced offensive attack this season.

[*pally*]

After week four, here’s your top-10 most efficient offensive lines in terms of pressure percentage allowed on true dropback passes.

Panthers (16.5%) - the best by far
Colts (20.5%)
Bengals (26.4%)
Cardinals (26.7%)
Saints (26.9%)
Ravens (27.3%)
Packers (27.6%)
Cowboys (28.3%)…

— Brett Kollmann (@BrettKollmann) October 2, 2024