How bad is the rest of the -dline at pass rushing?

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(03-25-2025, 04:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Nice post Rugby.

Love the thought of trading back and adding Jihad and another pick. Great player that is like 3 positions in one with his skillset. I know he 
won't play immediately with the shoulder injury, but he could be a star down the road. I like your thoughts on Perkins, he could be the Viper
and Stutsman was a stud on Oklahoma every time I watched him. Think I remember Carter from Clemson as well. 

We certainly can find a Viper outside of the first round. We didn't meet with Jalon Walker or Jihad Campbell. I don't know if this means 
anything or not...

Much like several posters, I am hyped about the defense this season. 

I am expecting more from Jenkins and Jackson this season, with my only fear being their time developing behind Slaton and Hill may be excessive when they need more playing time. If they draft Grant at 17, it kills Jackson's development, same with Nolen and Jenkins.

I love the idea of Warren or Emmanwori, as Warren as the traditional TE and Gesicki in the slot would be crazy for Joe, along with Emmanwori in the first and Harold Perkins in the second would reshape the defense. 

The draft is more wide open than people think, IMO.

When I think of the Viper role, I am looking for explosive linebackers who can cover and big safeties who excel at blitzing, which again gives a wider field of potential prospects in the draft or free agency (Simmons?).

[007BengalsFan]

Defensive line has to be the pick in the 1st.  Outside of Hendrickson we generated very little pass rush.  How many times did we watch the opposing offense have all day to throw the ball?  That makes it very hard on your secondary and I'm sure it played a part in some of their struggles last year.  We absolutely need to improve the pass rush and so far in free agency we haven't done that.  Slaton isn't going to help that area of need so what you would counting on is Jenkins/Jackson making a big leap or Ossai/Murphy.  I don't know if you can hang you hopes on that happening.  If those guys dont significantly improve, you are looking at another potential subpar year from the defense.  An elite safety or even CB could help but if you can improve the pass rush, that helps everyone on defense.  I think the pick is DL but it wouldn't surprise me if it were safety.

[007BengalsFan]

(03-25-2025, 01:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: ... This Draft is very deep with pass rushers and I am expecting one early. The Viper position is the most 
intriguing thing to me now with Golden and Hodges here. Jalon Walker makes a lot of sense because of this.

I dont know about linebacker with the 1st pick.  You want to be able to generate pressure with your front 4.  If you have to bring a linebacker, I think that limits the defense.  Sure, you can have the linebacker at the line like Parsons is often used but I still feel that would be more limiting than having a DT or DE that can pass rush.

[Joelist]

I got curious and took a look at the defensive sack numbers last season. Per Pro Football Reference 36 total sacks and - interestingly - 18 of them after Lou changed the defense. BJ Hill had 3, Ossai 4, Jenkins 2, Jackson 1, Trey 6 with the other 2 scattered amongst safety and LB. Interesting.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2025, 04:38 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Much like several posters, I am hyped about the defense this season. 

I am expecting more from Jenkins and Jackson this season, with my only fear being their time developing behind Slaton and Hill may be excessive when they need more playing time. If they draft Grant at 17, it kills Jackson's development, same with Nolen and Jenkins.

I love the idea of Warren or Emmanwori, as Warren as the traditional TE and Gesicki in the slot would be crazy for Joe, along with Emmanwori in the first and Harold Perkins in the second would reshape the defense. 

The draft is more wide open than people think, IMO.

When I think of the Viper role, I am looking for explosive linebackers who can cover and big safeties who excel at blitzing, which again gives a wider field of potential prospects in the draft or free agency (Simmons?).

I am hyped as well, this Defense was pretty stale the last couple of years under Lou. That is the thing, they drafted Kris Jenkins in the 2nd
round and McKinnley Jackson in the 3rd, these guys need to pan out and I expect them to. Both had good flashes as rookies, Slaton allows 
McKinnley to develop and McKinnley already brings more pass rush so he might have the head start of the two yah never know.

BJ Hill is solid as it gets so he will be a little harder for Kris Jenkins to unseat, plus we just paid BJ a bag of money.

Also would love to add a TE that can do it all in Tyler Warren, I think he could single handedly bring another dimension to the Offense, but 
I think he will be gone by 17. Emmanwori could be that stud Safety to really help the Defense for sure, we all see what stud Safeties have 
done for the Ravens over the years.

(03-25-2025, 05:06 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Defensive line has to be the pick in the 1st.  Outside of Hendrickson we generated very little pass rush.  How many times did we watch the opposing offense have all day to throw the ball?  That makes it very hard on your secondary and I'm sure it played a part in some of their struggles last year.  We absolutely need to improve the pass rush and so far in free agency we haven't done that.  Slaton isn't going to help that area of need so what you would counting on is Jenkins/Jackson making a big leap or Ossai/Murphy.  I don't know if you can hang you hopes on that happening.  If those guys dont significantly improve, you are looking at another potential subpar year from the defense.  An elite safety or even CB could help but if you can improve the pass rush, that helps everyone on defense.  I think the pick is DL but it wouldn't surprise me if it were safety.

The question is what End in the 1st are we willing to gamble on? Mike Green is undersized and has character concerns, James Pearce is the 
same, Shemar Stewart looks like Tarzan plays like Jane and has less production than Murphy had in college etc.

Honestly Emmanwori makes the most sense to me. We have DT's even if some are down on Slaton because he cannot rush the passer and 
if this is truly the case Kenneth Grant makes sense because he CAN rush the passer and be a Nose and is more polished than McKinnley.

(03-25-2025, 05:19 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I dont know about linebacker with the 1st pick.  You want to be able to generate pressure with your front 4.  If you have to bring a linebacker, I think that limits the defense.  Sure, you can have the linebacker at the line like Parsons is often used but I still feel that would be more limiting than having a DT or DE that can pass rush.

All good points. Like I said, we didn't meet with Jalon Walker or Jihad Campbell anyways and they are the only 2 I would think about in the 1st.

[Housh]

So bad that if we don’t hit in the draft our defense is likely screwed with or without Trey

[NUGDUKWE]

(03-25-2025, 05:06 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Defensive line has to be the pick in the 1st.  Outside of Hendrickson we generated very little pass rush.  How many times did we watch the opposing offense have all day to throw the ball?  That makes it very hard on your secondary and I'm sure it played a part in some of their struggles last year.  We absolutely need to improve the pass rush and so far in free agency we haven't done that.  Slaton isn't going to help that area of need so what you would counting on is Jenkins/Jackson making a big leap or Ossai/Murphy.  I don't know if you can hang you hopes on that happening.  If those guys dont significantly improve, you are looking at another potential subpar year from the defense.  An elite safety or even CB could help but if you can improve the pass rush, that helps everyone on defense.  I think the pick is DL but it wouldn't surprise me if it were safety.

If Hendrickson is retained I'm not sure about Dline in rd 1. Just seems like we need an impact starter and anyone drafted on the DL will be in a heavy rotation. Just wonder if that makes it more likely for a 3rd or 4th rounder with time to develop. I'm hoping Malaki Starks drops to 17 not just for us to pick but also I think he might generate a trade situation.

[chrisball96]

(03-25-2025, 06:23 PM)Housh Wrote: So bad that if we don’t hit in the draft our defense is likely screwed with or without Trey

My hope is that if we do get him back we just get a few more good pieces on D and that our players who were injured just get a bit better.

We don’t need to be the 85 Bears on D next year, just league average.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2025, 07:56 PM)chrisball96 Wrote: My hope is that if we do get him back we just get a few more good pieces on D and that our players who were injured just get a bit better.

We don’t need to be the 85 Bears on D next year, just league average.

Yeah, we just need to make sure if our Offense scores 38+ points will still don't lose lol

Not a very high bar to aim for, anything better than that is gravy while Golden and his guys build the Defense this year.

[chrisball96]

(03-25-2025, 08:03 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, we just need to make sure if our Offense scores 38+ points will still don't lose lol

Not a very high bar to aim for, anything better than that is gravy while Golden and his guys build the Defense this year.

Exactly. If we have Trey back we have a chance to get to league average (as small as that chance may be) but without him via a trade you have to hope a defensive draft pick gets you there in the next 1-2 years which is pretty rare.

I just don’t think they can afford to trade him (which it looks like they are not going to) because it delays things too long.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-25-2025, 08:17 PM)chrisball96 Wrote: Exactly. If we have Trey back we have a chance to get to league average (as small as that chance may be) but without him via a trade you have to hope a defensive draft pick gets you there in the next 1-2 years which is pretty rare.

I just don’t think they can afford to trade him (which it looks like they are not going to) because it delays things too long.

They aren't going to trade Trey, he will be back and maybe for 2 to 3 years depending on the offer he initially declined.

If that offer of reportedly 32 mil is still on the table he should sign it and be happy making double of what he was going to make the next couple years.

It was his agent and him thinking they were worth the Maxx Crosby deal, that was the mistake.

[Bilbo Saggins]

Who cares? It's a run first league now. We're back to leather helmets, three yards, and a cloud of dust. Stop the run and cover the pass for 10 seconds. QBs nowadays aren't good enough to complete passes if the coverage is good enough. 

In all seriousness, Lou tried to do the thing of having pass rushers drop into coverage at a higher rate than the rest of the league. It was by in large awful. I'd much prefer a coverage player who can moonlight as a pass rusher than vice versa. Lou's defense was too passive. Dropping rushers into coverage is passive. You're praying that the opposing QB makes a hilariously bad mistake by throwing it right to a defensive end.  Why would they try to build a defense that depended on such a flukey occurrence rather than just trying to sack the QB? 

[chrisball96]

(03-25-2025, 08:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They aren't going to trade Trey, he will be back and maybe for 2 to 3 years depending on the offer he initially declined.

If that offer of reportedly 32 mil is still on the table he should sign it and be happy making double of what he was going to make the next couple years.

It was his agent and him thinking they were worth the Maxx Crosby deal, that was the mistake.

Absolutely, seems like Trey’s agent has failed him time and again. The threat this time around to sit out was particularly foolish. No one for a second believed that a 30 year old DE was going to waste a year like that.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(03-25-2025, 08:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: They aren't going to trade Trey, he will be back and maybe for 2 to 3 years depending on the offer he initially declined.

If that offer of reportedly 32 mil is still on the table he should sign it and be happy making double of what he was going to make the next couple years.

It was his agent and him thinking they were worth the Maxx Crosby deal, that was the mistake.

Trey is a Bengal next year. 

My bad for implying otherwise unless a crazy  offer surfaces.

[THE PISTONS]

(03-25-2025, 04:38 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Much like several posters, I am hyped about the defense this season. 

I am expecting more from Jenkins and Jackson this season, with my only fear being their time developing behind Slaton and Hill may be excessive when they need more playing time. If they draft Grant at 17, it kills Jackson's development, same with Nolen and Jenkins.

I love the idea of Warren or Emmanwori, as Warren as the traditional TE and Gesicki in the slot would be crazy for Joe, along with Emmanwori in the first and Harold Perkins in the second would reshape the defense. 

The draft is more wide open than people think, IMO.

When I think of the Viper role, I am looking for explosive linebackers who can cover and big safeties who excel at blitzing, which again gives a wider field of potential prospects in the draft or free agency (Simmons?).

Lou was definitely playing some guys that shouldn't be playing. Late in the year, when they stopped getting as much playing time, it improved some.

That's my cup half full take.

[*bengalfan74*]

(03-25-2025, 07:56 PM)chrisball96 Wrote: My hope is that if we do get him back we just get a few more good pieces on D and that our players who were injured just get a bit better.

We don’t need to be the 85 Bears on D next year, just league average.

Exactly

If we can just get up around the middle of the pack we should be good. With rare exceptions you can't normally go from the bottom of the barrel to top 10 in one season.

And even as bad as our G's were on O last season I still believe our Dline was our biggest problem.

[J24]

We're bad at pass rushing at the DT position.

According to PFF ;last season the DTs on the Bengals had 60 pressures between them.There were three DTs that had 60 or more pressures last season in the NFL. In perspective, the backup DTs in Philly Moro Mojo and Milton Williams had 71 pressures between them last season.

[3wt]

(03-24-2025, 11:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's why we need to draft Walter Nolen out of Ol' Miss and let him create pass rush from the tackle position!

That's who I want.  Someone who puts pressure on the quarterback in his face.  This guy has a penetrator and will combine with Hendrickson to limit those 5-10 second snaps that ends up converting long shot 3rd downs and TDs from the edge of the red zone.

[BFritz21]

(Yesterday, 12:38 PM)3wt Wrote: That's who I want.  Someone who puts pressure on the quarterback in his face.  This guy has a penetrator and will combine with Hendrickson to limit those 5-10 second snaps that ends up converting long shot 3rd downs and TDs from the edge of the red zone.

Exactly and it alters the way the offensive line has to block and leaves other guys on the edge single blocked, which Nolen can still get a push even when he's double-teamed.

He'd be a game-changer.

I see people wanting a corner in the first but 95% of corners are inneffective if the QB has all day to throw with no pressure in his face, so Nolen would improve the entire defense with his play.

[*ochocincos*]

How bad is the rest of the DLine at pass rush?

Well, let's look at their total pressures last year.

Hendrickson - 83 (most pressures by individual player last year in whole league)

Others:
BJ Hill - 32
Jenkins - 11
Jackson - 7
Slaton - 13
Murphy - 20
Ossai - 31

All the other dudes aside from Ossai ended up totaling 83...

Obviously, most of these guys didn't play as many snaps as Hendrickson, but they all played 400+ snaps other than Jackson (248 snaps).