How about AJ McCarron

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 06:59 PM)BigSeph Wrote: My point is that McCarron had a gutsy performance and played well in the 4th quarter.

That's all.

Some people can't bring themselves to admit the obvious, instead bashing his 4th quarter and downplaying everything he did (he only got down the field due to PI, his TD to AJ was a "floater", defense gave them great field position that's only reason they put up points, etc).

Dalton is absolutely a superior QB right now.  He should be.  He's had 4 years to work on it.

Could AJM develop?  After watching the last 4+ games, I'd say he absolutely will develop and will be a successful starting QB in the NFL for many years.  Look at the QB rating.  Look at the way the team barely lost vs. Denver and Pittsburgh.  There is a lot of promise and potential there.  That doesn't mean I want to see AJ starting for the Bengals and Andy shipped off or benched.  That doesn't mean I hate Andy.  It means I can see the progress and potential in AJM and he has grown quickly with experience.

Andy Dalton right now is a better QB to lead the Bengals.

If I said he wasn't, would it change your opinion on AJM?  Just give the guy some credit.  He deserves it.

i did give the guy credit.. no problem.. I guess the problem is when you try to compare AJM and Dalton.. you just can't.. Remember a great definition of potential  "You ain't done shit yet "... That pretty much fits AJM .. not totally since he has won in the NFL but really 4 games does not mean what will happen..  Hell if i went by that Kearns or Bruce from the Reds would have been in the Hall of Fame after the first month of their baseball careers.

So for me just don;t compare Dalton with AJM and I understand your point ... 

Dalton  solid playoff caliber NFL starter with a resume to back it up, AJM good backup with potential to be a starter in NFL.. I can buy that

[XenoMorph]

(01-11-2016, 06:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In fairness, AJ is the only Bengals QB in the 7 Lewis era playoff games to actually have a late game lead. Whatever you think of him, it's not like any Bengals QB has lit up in the playoffs in recent years...including Palmer, Kitna and Dalton. 

I've also noticed a weird trend since Andy went down. Some of the people that were hardcore Andy fans...who used to chastise anyone who offered criticism of Andy and would always tell others to 'support their QB'...are now the same ones doing some serious criticizing of AJ, bordering on the irrational. What happened to supporting the QB? Does that only apply when it's 'your guy'?

I've always been an Andy supporter, although my confidence in him has been up and down at times. He had an outstanding year, and it was awesome to see. When he went down, I thought AJ stepped up and performed admirably for a guy seeing his first NFL action. I just don't get some of the over the top criticism and negativity towards him.

I support AJM and said he had a great 4th Qtr... Saying anything more than that would be a lie.

His 2 wins came against 2 of the worst teams in the league in 2015..

He did play denver well.

Theres not much to say. Hes played 4 games. But im giving credit to more than AJM for getting us the lead late. a lot of that credit has to be on the defense and burfict.

[BigSeph]

(01-11-2016, 07:13 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: i did give the guy credit.. no problem.. I guess the problem is when you try to compare AJM and Dalton.. you just can't.. Remember a great definition of potential  "You ain't done shit yet "... That pretty much fits AJM .. not totally since he has won in the NFL but really 4 games does not mean what will happen..  Hell if i went by that Kearns or Bruce from the Reds would have been in the Hall of Fame after the first month of their baseball careers.

So for me just don;t compare Dalton with AJM and I understand your point ... 

Dalton  solid playoff caliber NFL starter with a resume to back it up, AJM good backup with potential to be a starter in NFL.. I can buy that

I bring up Andy's stats for those who say McCarron sucked or played like crap.

If they think AJM played like crap, then I put Andy's playoff stats in front of them.  Andy's stats happen to be worse.

It's a rhetorical device intended to silence ignorant and irrational arguments, but it doesn't even put a dent in some of these guys.

I don't do it to bag on Andy.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 06:53 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: In fairness, AJ is the only Bengals QB in the 7 Lewis era playoff games to actually have a late game lead. Whatever you think of him, it's not like any Bengals QB has lit up in the playoffs in recent years...including Palmer, Kitna and Dalton. 

I've also noticed a weird trend since Andy went down. Some of the people that were hardcore Andy fans...who used to chastise anyone who offered criticism of Andy and would always tell others to 'support their QB'...are now the same ones doing some serious criticizing of AJ, bordering on the irrational. What happened to supporting the QB? Does that only apply when it's 'your guy'?

I've always been an Andy supporter, although my confidence in him has been up and down at times. He had an outstanding year, and it was awesome to see. When he went down, I thought AJ stepped up and performed admirably for a guy seeing his first NFL action. I just don't get some of the over the top criticism and negativity towards him.

I would also add from the other side.. it amazed me how people who had not been Andy supporters got quite when Andy was having a great year but then when he got hurt and we were heading into the playoffs, they were like AJM has to start if we win first game etc.. just crazy how irrational some of those posts were.

[BengalChris]

(01-11-2016, 07:11 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: That's called fear of the starting QB being pressured for his job. Most would say handling pressure is not been a strength of his. Admitting that there is a viable starter if he should falters would be turning up the heat in the pressure cooker. Can't do that!

I don't think Dalton is feeling pressure for his job, at least not that I know of.

We do need a viable backup at every position who can step in and start in any situation, including if the starter lays an egg. QB is no different. We have young guys coming up at a lot of positions.

[Bengalholic]

(01-11-2016, 07:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would also add from the other side.. it amazed me how people who had not been Andy supporters got quite when Andy was having a great year but then when he got hurt and we were heading into the playoffs, they were like AJM has to start if we win first game etc.. just crazy how irrational some of those posts were.

You're absolutely right. That Andy venom from some was always crazy. I noticed a couple of those guys that resurfaced in the Andy mega thread after he went down.

I have no issue with honest criticism. It's the over the top stuff, the refusal to acknowledge any of the positives, that makes it difficult to be taken seriously.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 07:29 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: You're absolutely right. That Andy venom from some was always crazy. I noticed a couple of those guys that resurfaced in the Andy mega thread after he went down.

I have no issue with honest criticism. It's the over the top stuff, the refusal to acknowledge any of the positives, that makes it difficult to be taken seriously.

totally agree.. from my standpoint.. as bad as the year ended with the playoff game. there is no doubt the bright spot going into next year is our QB situation.  Something we might not have agreed to at the beginning of this year

I feel we have

1.  A top 5 to 7 starting QB
2.  A solid backup that can win games as a starter for us.....

Not very many teams have this..... 

[Bengalholic]

(01-11-2016, 07:15 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: I support AJM and said he had a great 4th Qtr... Saying anything more than that would be a lie.

His 2 wins came against 2 of the worst teams in the league in 2015..

He did play denver well.

Theres not much to say. Hes played 4 games.   But im giving credit to more than AJM for getting us the lead late. a lot of that credit has to be on the defense and burfict.

Yep, he did some things well and struggled at times. He looked like a guy with a very small NFL sample size. 

Because of that, I just don't get the animosity by some against his play...or the total love affair by others.

[Bengalholic]

(01-11-2016, 07:31 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: totally agree.. from my standpoint.. as bad as the year ended with the playoff game. there is no doubt the bright spot going into next year is our QB situation.  Something we might not have agreed to at the beginning of this year

I feel we have

1.  A top 5 to 7 starting QB
2.  A solid backup that can win games as a starter for us.....

Not very many teams have this..... 

Yeah, we are in a pretty damn spot at the QB position. 

[RoyleRedlegs]

(01-11-2016, 07:35 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yep, he did some things well and struggled at times. He looked like a guy with a very small NFL sample size. 

Because of that, I just don't get the animosity by some against his play...or the total love affair by others.

Once people started claiming he should be the starter back in August, kid gloves are off. 
He deserves to be analyzed and held to that standard. 

He's had things Dalton never had as a rookie and he can't do what Dalton did. That's important when people are claiming he should be the starter.

I don't see how an objective eye could watch the first 3Q and not think he was a major problem with this team. 
The big difference was we got a complete game from the defense that gave the offense chances and field position.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-11-2016, 07:39 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, we are in a pretty damn spot at the QB position. 

Need to parlay #2 into a high draft pick. See if the Browns are interested for their 2nd overall pick. Wouldn't mind adding Bosa to the team, or turning that 2nd overall into some more picks to grab Elliot and maybe a WR or LB.

Just look at what the Rams got for Bradford, and Bradford's a turd who only had 1 year left.

[Bengalholic]

(01-11-2016, 07:41 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Once people started claiming he should be the starter back in August, kid gloves are off. 
He deserves to be analyzed and held to that standard. 

He's had things Dalton never had as a rookie and he can't do what Dalton did. That's important when people are claiming he should be the starter.

I don't see how an objective eye could watch the first 3Q and not think he was a major problem with this team. 
The big difference was we got a complete game from the defense that gave the offense chances and field position.

I agree with many of your posts, but the bold statement made me shake my noggin. Why, if your want your evaluation of a player to be honest and taken seriously, would you base it on irrational standards that some fan(s) set? 

As to the first 3 Q's of the playoff game, you're right, he looked every bit of a guy with very little NFL experience. In the 4th he showed that he is capable of rebounding. As I said before, we've yet to have a QB have a high quality performance in the playoffs during the Lewis era, including AJ's overall game. 

I agree about the D, they played one helluva game. 

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 08:05 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I agree with many of your posts, but the bold statement made me shake my noggin. Why, if your want your evaluation of a player to be honest and taken seriously, would you base it on irrational standards that some fans(s) set? 

As to the first 3 Q's of the playoff game, you're right, he looked every bit of a guy with very little NFL experience. In the 4th he showed that he is capable of rebounding. As I said before, we've yet to have a QB have a high quality performance in the playoffs during the Lewis era, including AJ's overall game. 

I agree about the D, they played one helluva game. 

Well our Defense played well but not great.. way too many rushing yards given up.. couple dropped INTS.. and we had them backed up on that final drive and they took the ball across our 50 to setup the terrible end

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 08:04 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Need to parlay #2 into a high draft pick. See if the Browns are interested for their 2nd overall pick. Wouldn't mind adding Bosa to the team, or turning that 2nd overall into some more picks to grab Elliot and maybe a WR or LB.

Just look at what the Rams got for Bradford, and Bradford's a turd who only had 1 year left.

AJM did not raise this stock that high for a 2nd pick.. also why put ourselves behind the eight ball of so many teams.. Keep AJM for a solid backup next year.. i actually think his stock will rise or stay the same the following year anyway

[Bengalholic]

(01-11-2016, 08:20 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well our Defense played well but not great.. way too many rushing yards given up.. couple dropped INTS.. and we had them backed up on that final drive and they took the ball across our 50 to setup the terrible end

Overall, it was the best a D has played, IMO, in the 7 games. But the rushing yards compiled by a 3rd and 4th stringer was frustrating. Honestly, in all 7 playoff games, teams have pretty much ran very well against us. 

I did think the defense played with much more fire and aggression, which was needed to keep the game close, especially since the O failed to show in the 1st half.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 08:27 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Overall, it was the best a D has played, IMO, in the 7 games. But the rushing yards compiled by a 3rd and 4th stringer was frustrating. Honestly, in all 7 playoff games, teams have pretty much ran very well against us. 

I did think the defense played with much more fire and aggression, which was needed to keep the game close, especially since the O failed to show in the 1st half.

sadly we could say the same for steelers defense also in 1st half... overall both defenses out played the opposing offenses.. problem was, that was supposed to be our edge... our offense over their defense

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-11-2016, 08:21 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: AJM did not raise this stock that high for a 2nd pick.. also why put ourselves behind the eight ball of so many teams.. Keep AJM for a solid backup next year.. i actually think his stock will rise or stay the same the following year anyway

Sam Bradford is 3 years older than McCarron, has a history of injuries and "meh" play, still got Foles and a 2nd round pick.

The 2016 draft doesn't look like it'll be a particularly great QB draft. I don't think there's any Lucks or Newtons in it. Was looking around, the #1 QB seems to be a player for the California Golden Bears. They were 4-5 in the Pac12, and 4-0 outside of it for a 8-5 record. That final win? Over freaking Air Force in the "Lockheed Martin Armed Forces Bowl". Not quite a National Championship, or even a major bowl.

I don't buy that McCarron's stock will rise from sitting on the bench in 2016. He'll be a year older, a year closer to FA. Right now if someone trades for McCarron, they get 2 years of a 5th rounder's contract before they actually have to pay him the ridiculous QB prices out there.

A "solid backup" isn't worth Ezekiel Elliot, or some other probably great rookie who can start immediately and make a difference. Starters are always worth more than backups.

[Essex Johnson]

(01-11-2016, 08:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Sam Bradford is 3 years older than McCarron, has a history of injuries and "meh" play, still got Foles and a 2nd round pick.

The 2016 draft doesn't look like it'll be a particularly great QB draft. I don't think there's any Lucks or Newtons in it. Was looking around, the #1 QB seems to be a player for the California Golden Bears. They were 4-5 in the Pac12, and 4-0 outside of it for a 8-5 record. That final win? Over freaking Air Force in the "Lockheed Martin Armed Forces Bowl". Not quite a National Championship, or even a major bowl.

I don't buy that McCarron's stock will rise from sitting on the bench in 2016. He'll be a year older, a year closer to FA. Right now if someone trades for McCarron, they get 2 years of a 5th rounder's contract before they actually have to pay him the ridiculous QB prices out there.

A "solid backup" isn't worth Ezekiel Elliot, or some other probably great rookie who can start immediately and make a difference. Starters are always worth more than backups.

Sorry 4 games of starting is not going to move a 5th round pick to a 2nd round pick.. and i dont see his stock moving much next year... and the big reason we don't want to trade him is we have no backup.. and we don;t need to be like Dallas this year.. a good team with no backup QB

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(01-11-2016, 08:58 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Sorry 4 games of starting is not going to move a 5th round pick to a 2nd round pick.. and i dont see his stock moving much next year... and the big reason we don't want to trade him is we have no backup.. and we don;t need to be like Dallas this year.. a good team with no backup QB

Backups are a dime a dozen if you have a defense that plays like the Bengals did in 2015 and have enough talent surrounding him. The two games McCarron won, he threw for 192 yards and 160 yards. A backup didn't need to do much for the Bengals to win. The Bengals D allowed about 6 points per game less than the Dallas D and had 28 takeaways to Dallas' league-worst 11 takeaways.

Not to mention Dalton has only missed 3 regular season games in 5 years, all from one injury. Romo hasn't started 16 games in 2012. Actually, in 13 years, Romo has started 16 games in a season the same amount Dalton has in 5 years.

Teams are getting more QB needy. It'd be silly to not trade him if you get a good offer. Getting a starting player is always better than a backup player.

[McC]

(01-11-2016, 08:27 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Overall, it was the best a D has played, IMO, in the 7 games. But the rushing yards compiled by a 3rd and 4th stringer was frustrating. Honestly, in all 7 playoff games, teams have pretty much ran very well against us. 

I did think the defense played with much more fire and aggression, which was needed to keep the game close, especially since the O failed to show in the 1st half.

I think Paulie G had to pick his poison.  Make them have to drive the field and not give up the long pass plays.  They played the run pretty well most of the time.  It was the longer runs that were damaging.  The reverse was a back breaker too.