Kaepernick Trade For Dalton?

[CincyProduct]

No thanks.

[OSUfan]

(06-08-2015, 10:22 PM)GodFather Wrote: First off I've never tried to make him to be the be all and end all, because I don't think he is. If I post stats they are just that. I didn't make it up and if thats what it is then make your own conclusion. Your the guy who flies off the handle when everyone else looks around the room and rolls their eyes. Do you enjoy reacting to everyones threads in the same manner? In this thread I make Kap to be the big bag of chips, in other threads your telling members they're a bunch of teenage girls..Lighten Up Francis.

Show me where the 49ers went to great lengths for him not to throw in the end zone. I want to see where you got this news from? And lastly where did I say in this thread Id pick Kap over Dalton or are you assuming again?

Your posting history on Dalton makes the assumption not much of a stretch.  Secondly I would suggest looking at some red zone play calling by the team.

[*Nately120*]

(06-09-2015, 01:36 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: Well... I did say IMO.
I'm not a homer and I did also say I didn't consider either starter material.
The higher upside that I see in Pryor is that his frame could add the extra weight to be more durable.
As far as comparing stats, I don't find that relevant as Pryor never got the shot that RG3 did.
Regardless, I defer to the fact of paying Pryor a minimal salary and being content with that investment over losing my starting QB to gamble on RG3.

Now then.......
Go AJ McCarron !!

Pryor didn't get the shot that RGII did because Pryor isn't RGIII...it's really that simple.  This isn't little league, not everyone gets the same chance.  And while Pryor did get to be the starting QB in crappy ol' Oakland his 9 total TDs to 13 total TOs (along with some games missed due to injury, for good measure) may play a role in the fact that he isn't getting any offers for starting gigs.

It's just the way it is.  I'm just calling you out for looking at a guy who hasn't shown that he's in RGIII's ballpark and claming that he may be significantly better.  Anywho, I get what you are saying, but it is a bit telling that you see higher upside in Pryor yet also state that you wouldn't want to pay him a lot and/or make him the starter.  Upside just seems like such an ambiguous thing.

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-09-2015, 02:42 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: So the one with much more yards and TDs and a higher completion % gets a lower rating? How is that judging who's a better QB? The biggest part of passer rating is YPA. All that passer rating shows is who is more of an efficient QB, and not who's the better QB. I mean if you like more efficient QBs that's fine, but that's about the same as liking a smart car over a lamborghini.

Also they take all of the stats that have different common denominators, and try to guesstimate how much value each stat should have in that formula.

More yards and more TDs doesn't mean you had a better game. The NFL needed a way to crown a passing champion. Do they choose the guy with the most yards? The most touchdowns? Raw stats don't determine whether you are better or worse than someone else. They came up with a formula that gauges 4 categories and they use non-weighted numbers so that there is no subjectivity to it.

If you were complaining about ESPNs QBR or PFFs grading system i'd be right with you. Any weighted scale is bunk in my opinion. The standar QB rating system uses static numbers to judge QBs against each other. There is nothing weighted to them and there is no subjective grade given or taken away from them. Every QBs performance is equated using black and white numbers across the board. The guys that complete the highest percentage, for the better YPA and have a better TD/att percentage and a lower INT/att percentage are the guys that spend their time in the top 10. The guys that complete a lower percentage of passes and don't do as well in the TD/att INT/att are the ones outside the top 10.

The Bengals QB is usually upper/middle of the pack in att, comp, yards, tds. Where he falls off is comp% and INT/att percentage. First one is too low and the second is too high. 

I was screaming to high heaven after the '13 season that up until the Ravens finale, Dalton was a 90 rated QB, right at #10. Then he went into that game and threw FOUR freaking interceptions and Kaep passed him up in the QB standings. That's Dalton's fault. Not the rating system's fault.

People keep coming up with excuses as to why he can't seem to break the top 10. Eff the excuses. It's year 5 and if he can't get it done this year, he'll never get it done. 


One thing you can be sure of is, i've spent hours trying to come up with a better gauge for today's QBs. And the one thing that doesn't change is, no matter what numbers i use and no matter how i change them, Dalton stays middle to bottom of the pack. That's not because the world is against him. It's because he's just not shown as a top 10 QB at this point.

[Rotobeast]

(06-09-2015, 03:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Pryor didn't get the shot that RGII did because Pryor isn't RGIII...it's really that simple.  This isn't little league, not everyone gets the same chance.  And while Pryor did get to be the starting QB in crappy ol' Oakland his 9 total TDs to 13 total TOs (along with some games missed due to injury, for good measure) may play a role in the fact that he isn't getting any offers for starting gigs.

It's just the way it is.  I'm just calling you out for looking at a guy who hasn't shown that he's in RGIII's ballpark and claming that he may be significantly better.  Anywho, I get what you are saying, but it is a bit telling that you see higher upside in Pryor yet also state that you wouldn't want to pay him a lot and/or make him the starter.  Upside just seems like such an ambiguous thing.

And I wouldn't pay RG3, either.
No worries..... I've never claimed to be an expert.
In fact, I've been known to have some silly opinions.
I suppose that me saying we had a "better version of RG3" may have been a bit overboard, but I just feel Pryor is a better bang for the NFL dollar.

[Brownshoe]

(06-09-2015, 07:40 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: More yards and more TDs doesn't mean you had a better game. The NFL needed a way to crown a passing champion. Do they choose the guy with the most yards? The most touchdowns? Raw stats don't determine whether you are better or worse than someone else. They came up with a formula that gauges 4 categories and they use non-weighted numbers so that there is no subjectivity to it.

If you were complaining about ESPNs QBR or PFFs grading system i'd be right with you. Any weighted scale is bunk in my opinion. The standar QB rating system uses static numbers to judge QBs against each other. There is nothing weighted to them and there is no subjective grade given or taken away from them. Every QBs performance is equated using black and white numbers across the board. The guys that complete the highest percentage, for the better YPA and have a better TD/att percentage and a lower INT/att percentage are the guys that spend their time in the top 10. The guys that complete a lower percentage of passes and don't do as well in the TD/att INT/att are the ones outside the top 10.

The Bengals QB is usually upper/middle of the pack in att, comp, yards, tds. Where he falls off is comp% and INT/att percentage. First one is too low and the second is too high. 

I was screaming to high heaven after the '13 season that up until the Ravens finale, Dalton was a 90 rated QB, right at #10. Then he went into that game and threw FOUR freaking interceptions and Kaep passed him up in the QB standings. That's Dalton's fault. Not the rating system's fault.

People keep coming up with excuses as to why he can't seem to break the top 10. Eff the excuses. It's year 5 and if he can't get it done this year, he'll never get it done. 


One thing you can be sure of is, i've spent hours trying to come up with a better gauge for today's QBs. And the one thing that doesn't change is, no matter what numbers i use and no matter how i change them, Dalton stays middle to bottom of the pack. That's not because the world is against him. It's because he's just not shown as a top 10 QB at this point.

TDs and yards means that they did better. If the game wasn't about who could score more points in a limited amount of time, then. I would agree with you. The simple fact is the person who helped score the most points is better.

[*Nately120*]

(06-09-2015, 07:47 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: And I wouldn't pay RG3, either.
No worries..... I've never claimed to be an expert.
In fact, I've been known to have some silly opinions.
I suppose that me saying we had a "better version of RG3" may have been a bit overboard, but I just feel Pryor is a better bang for the NFL dollar.

Ha, well you can say RGIII came at far too high a premium, but he led the punchless Redskins to the playoffs once...Pryor may have a much lower price tag, but he's done zilch.

[Bengalholic]

Man, as indifferent as I am with Andy at the moment, I wouldn't even think about trading him for Kaep. Now Russell Wilson or Ryan Tannehill...that's a different story.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-09-2015, 10:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Ha, well you can say RGIII came at far too high a premium, but he led the punchless Redskins to the playoffs once...Pryor may have a much lower price tag, but he's done zilch.

RGIII only counts for 6.7 million against the cap this year. That's a bargain for a legit starter with some potential.

I may be alone on this, but I think people are way too hard on Griffin. He can still turn around his career.

He was dealt a pretty crummy hand with Shanny bringing him back too early (causing further injury), then the coaching change.

[Brownshoe]

(06-09-2015, 10:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: RGIII only counts for 6.7 million against the cap this year. That's a bargain for a legit starter with some potential.

I may be alone on this, but I think people are way too hard on Griffin. He can still turn around his career.

He was dealt a pretty crummy hand with Shanny bringing him back too early (causing further injury), then the coaching change.

He has had some of the best weapons in the game the last couple of years. Last year he easily had top 5 weapons and still couldn't do anything. On top of that he seems to be injury prone.

[*Nately120*]

(06-09-2015, 10:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: RGIII only counts for 6.7 million against the cap this year. That's a bargain for a legit starter with some potential.

I may be alone on this, but I think people are way too hard on Griffin. He can still turn around his career.

He was dealt a pretty crummy hand with Shanny bringing him back too early (causing further injury), then the coaching change.

I was thinking more about the fact that they traded 93 1st round picks to move up to get him, but I get what you are saying.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(06-09-2015, 10:07 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: TDs and yards means that they did better. If the game wasn't about who could score more points in a limited amount of time, then. I would agree with you. The simple fact is the person who helped score the most points is better.

Ok. I'm done here. You just don't get it. 

Defend on, my friend!

[BengalChris]

(06-09-2015, 10:27 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, as indifferent as I am with Andy at the moment, I wouldn't even think about trading him for Kaep. Now Russell Wilson or Ryan Tannehill...that's a different story.

Completely agree. Wilson is just a winner. Tannihill has done quite well with far fewer weapons than Dalton, including in 2014.

I'd still have tried to snag Rivers for Dalton, a #1 and Bernard. That #1 pick turned out to be a player who won't even play for the Bengals this year.

I'd have zero interest in Kaepernick or RG3. Both are other teams' mistakes.

[Shake n Blake]

(06-09-2015, 10:46 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He has had some of the best weapons in the game the last couple of years. Last year he easily had top 5 weapons and still couldn't do anything. On top of that he seems to be injury prone.

In 2013 he wasn't fully recovered from the brutal injuries from 2012 and it wasn't exactly THAT bad, despite that. He posted an 82.2 rating, very similar to the year Dalton just had.

Last year he posted a 86.9 passer rating. Not thrilling, but not bad. He was dealing with an ankle injury and it seems like he was in Jay's doghouse a bit.

It's still too early in his career to draw conclusions. I think he'll do well this year.

[CornerBlitz]

I expected Dalton to win this poll but not by this margin. I wonder what these poll results would look like at a neutral message forum? Both had subpar seasons but prior to that I'm not sure how you could argue that Dalton is better especially if you were to include the playoffs.

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2015, 12:22 AM)BengalChris Wrote:  Tannihill has done quite well with far fewer weapons than Dalton, including in 2014.

Tannehill had as many weapons than Dalton.

This is a myth that I see posted around here a lot.  Not sure where it came from.

[BengalChris]

(06-10-2015, 02:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Tannehill had as many weapons than Dalton.

This is a myth that I see posted around here a lot.  Not sure where it came from.

Tannihill's receivers:
2014 4000+ yards, 27 TDs and 12 INTs - Jarvis Landry was added and he had Mike Wallace and Charles Clay.
2013 3900+ yards, 24 TDs and 17 INTs - No Landry. Wallace was signed as a FA.
2012 3,294 yards, 12 TDs and 13 INTs - Brian Hartline was his #1 WR, sad but true. Talk about a lack of weapons.

That's not a stellar list no matter how you slice it. AJ Green is cut above any of those guys. Hill and Bernard together offered the Bengals a much better running game in 2014.

While I believe Dalton is serviceable. The idea that Dalton hasn't had superior weapons for the bulk of his career is farce.

Maybe the team already has the answer on the team: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000496024/article/wallace-gilberry-aj-mccarron-awesome-for-bengals

[fredtoast]

(06-10-2015, 02:54 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Tannihill's receivers:
2014 4000+ yards, 27 TDs and 12 INTs - Jarvis Landry was added and he had Mike Wallace and Charles Clay.
2013 3900+ yards, 24 TDs and 17 INTs - No Landry. Wallace was signed as a FA.
2012 3,294 yards, 12 TDs and 13 INTs - Brian Hartline was his #1 WR, sad but true. Talk about a lack of weapons.

That's not a stellar list no matter how you slice it. AJ Green is cut above any of those guys. Hill and Bernard together offered the Bengals a much better running game in 2014.

While I believe Dalton is serviceable. The idea that Dalton hasn't had superior weapons for the bulk of his career is farce.

Maybe the team already has the answer on the team: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000496024/article/wallace-gilberry-aj-mccarron-awesome-for-bengals

Green is not that much better than Mike Wallace.  WR Brandon Gibson had two 50 reception seasons with the Rams before coming to the Dolphins in 2013.  TE Charles Clay has 117 reception over the last two years which is more than any Bengal TE.  Brian Hartine had back-to-back with at least 75 receptions and 1000 receiving yards. Tannehill had a deep, experienced receiving corps last year.

So other than Green all of his other weapons were better than Dalton's by far.

As for the rest of Dalton's career behind Green at #1 he had Jerome Simpson, Andre Caldwell, Andrew Hawkins, Sanu, and Jones.  None of those guys have produced like Hartline.  And to claim they are all "superior weapons" is a farce.  And until Bernard arrived Dalton didn't even have  RB who was a receiving threat.

And finally, the Bengals running game was not that much better than the Dolphins last year. In fact the dolphins averaged 4.7 yards per carry which was good for second in the league.

[orangeandblackblood]

(06-08-2015, 03:14 PM)GodFather Wrote: So I was reading how the 49ers could possibly trade Kaepernick with the recent loss of players and new coaching for restructuring. My question is this would you trade Dalton AND a 3rd round draft in 2016 for Kaepernick?

article
http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/13031499/why-san-francisco-49ers-trade-quarterback-colin-kaepernick-2016-clayton-mailbag

If you look at the stats between these two guys on paper they are very close and don't seem to be much different than one another:

Colin Kaepernick stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/colinkaepernick/2495186/careerstats

Andy Dalton stats
http://www.nfl.com/player/andydalton/2495143/careerstats

Thats also where stats on paper don't tell a whole story. Kaepernick has proven he can play in the big dance and Dalton has proven that he can't. So your calling the shots in Cincy and the 49ers approach you with the deal,  We give you Kaepernick and you give us Dalton and a 2016 3rd rounder. Do you take the deal or pass?

PASS.
Not for Kaep and a second.

[J24]

(06-09-2015, 10:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: RGIII only counts for 6.7 million against the cap this year. That's a bargain for a legit starter with some potential.

I may be alone on this, but I think people are way too hard on Griffin. He can still turn around his career.

He was dealt a pretty crummy hand with Shanny bringing him back too early (causing further injury), then the coaching change.

Agree to an extent. 1st Mike sabotaged him by not letting him play in the 2013 preseason he never got his timing back that year. I personally think that was a bigger blow then the injury itself. Secondly he needs to be in an environment where he isn't asked to carry a team with his arm which might make this place a perfect fit for him. My only concern with him would be his attitude; he seems to be a me first type of guy.