Real reason why Hue left

[Benton]

(04-11-2016, 01:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Carson was not pre-Lewis, and neither were almost all of the players on the '05 team that finally made the playoffs.

The '05 offense had only 4 players that started in '02 (Willie Anderson, Rich Braham, Levi Jones, Chad Johnson).  TJ and Rudi were on the team, but even if you count them that is only about half of the offense (6 of 11)

The '05 defense only had TWO player who started in '02 (Justin Smith,,Brian Simmons)

It is absurd to claim that "most" of the contributors to the '05 Division title team were "pre-Marvin" 

Again, we were taking Carson regardless. That had nothing to do with Marvin.

Rudi, 01
Henry, 05
TJ, 01
Chad, 01
Willie, 96
Braham, 94
Andrews, 04
Levi, 02
Willams, 04

Yeah. Marvin.



I'll let it go. If people want to think the team building that started in 2000ish was Marvin and the Browns are on a similar track, go for it. I just don't see it, on either one. I think it was Tobin and having a stable organization in place.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 01:47 PM)Benton Wrote:  Or the other 45-50 guys who were in place.

There were only 14 players from the '02 team that were still around in '05, and only 8 were starters.

Se we had replaced 2/3rds of our starters and 3/4ths of our roster.

[ItsOdellThurman]

I never specifically said the 2005 team. I said the first "era" of Marvin. He should get credit for drafting all of those guys

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 01:58 PM)Benton Wrote: Again, we were taking Carson regardless. That had nothing to do with Marvin.

No, but it has a lot to do with your claim that the '02 team was flush with talent.

Tell me again why it was that we had a chance to take the number one player in the draft?

[*Nately120*]

(04-11-2016, 12:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm trying to think of a player or coach that left the Bengals for the Browns and came back, but I'm drawing a blank.

I'm sure it's happened at some point, but I can't think of any examples.

I can't imagine going to a division rival is a nice way to depart, but I would also assume Mike Brown would hold more ill will towards the Ravens since they were the franchise that had Art Modell and canned his old man, etc.

(04-11-2016, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike Sheppard worked for the Browns before the Bengals hired him.  I don't think Hue will be barred forever from the bengals just because he left to work for the Browns.  If Hue had left in a lateral move to be their OC I could see MB being mad, but I don't think MB blames hue at all for leaving to take a HC position.

I don't know Mike Brown personally, but if he's actually the type of guy who resents a man for taking a promotion he earned while he himself was simply born into self-appointed titles, then ouch.

[Benton]

(04-11-2016, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There were only 14 players from the '02 team that were still around in '05, and only 8 were starters.

Se we had replaced 2/3rds of our starters and 3/4ths of our roster.

Fred, I said I was going to let it go, but this is just a silly framing. We aren't going to draft 50 guys in 02-04 and field a completely new team. I honestly don't even know what you're trying to say here.


Rudi, 01
Henry, 05
TJ, 01
Chad, 01
Willie, 96
Braham, 94
Andrews, 04
Levi, 02
Willams, 04
Kaeshviernene 01 (FA)
James 03 (FA)
Deltha 04 (FA)
Thurman 05
Fanene 05
J. Smith 01
Thornton 03 (FA)

So... if we're 03-05, Marvin's contribution was building the 28th ranked defense and getting handed the 4th ranked offense, outside of Andrews and Henry.

[Devils Advocate]

I agree with the others who call this BS. 

No way Mike or Marvin promised Hugh the gig two years down the road. It just opens Pandora's box. And even if they did offer it to him, there's no way he could seriously consider it. Not 2 years down the road in the NFL. 

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 02:44 PM)Benton Wrote:  getting handed the 4th ranked offense, outside of Andrews and Henry.

And Bobbie Williams, Eric Steinbach, Jeremi Johnson, Chris Perry, Reggie Kelly.

And I doubt any of you were talking about how Marvin was in good shape because he was getting handed a RB who was a 4th round pick and had 17 carries in two seasons (Rudi Johnson).  Or a WR that was a 7th round pick and had only one td and less than 700 yards over his first two seasons (Houshmandzadeh).

[Benton]

(04-11-2016, 03:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Bobbie Williams, Eric Steinbach, Jeremi Johnson, Chris Perry, Reggie Kelly.

And I doubt any of you were talking about how Marvin was in good shape because he was getting handed a RB who was a 4th round pick and had 17 carries in two seasons (Rudi Johnson).  Or a WR that was a 7th round pick and had only one td and less than 700 yards over his first two seasons (Houshmandzadeh).

Uh... why not? Every year I (and lots of other fans) get excited about second or third day guys. I honestly thought Corey Lynch was going to be a top 10 safety in a couple years. I thought Toeana would be a great DT. This year, I'll probably get excited over some sixth round guy I've never heard of. Good drafting finds good players outside of day 1.

[leonardfan40]

(04-11-2016, 10:31 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: marvins extension was just to avoid the lame duck status of a coach in his last year.  this is probly his last shot.

You really think mike is going to fire Marvin and still have to pay his salary for a year plus a new coaches salary? I don't see that happening 

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 01:04 PM)Benton Wrote: Chad and Carson were pre-Lewis. So was the most contributors of the 2005 team. Carson, Chad, TJ, Willie, Braham, Levi, Rudi. All those pieces were in place. Odell and Chris were the only contributors that year I can think of that Marvin drafted. To me, the organization was already doing things right 4-5 years before Marvin was doing anything.

2001 was really a good starting point. We started drafting well, we started getting some decent FAs. I think the biggest contributor to that was a couple years earlier when we hired Duke Tobin, but that didn't show up for a while. Not until Marvin was already in place as head coach. Honestly I think with Tobin and staff doing things a lot better, most coaches would have had similar success to Marvin.

And that's the problem with the Browns. I can't say what coach deserved 5 years. None of them have had a situation like Marvin walked into, one where scouting and drafting were improving to the point we were drafting quality players and there was already a plan in place. The coaches and QBs of the Browns reflect the institutional problem. You had Farmer and Haslam for two years, Lombardi and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and Haslam for a year, Eckhart and the previous owner for two years, who also had Savage and another guy. Four or five general managers, two owners. There's a lot of different directions to build a team around.

I've actually been saying the same thing about Tobin the last couple days, so obviously I agree with you - but it's not like those things were totally obvious when Marv took the job. we can only say that now with the benefit of hindsight.

Chad, TJ, Rudi, etc were still pretty green going into 2003. Unlike Fred though, I don't think Marv made those players. I also think it's silly to act like Marv flipped the whole team over in 2 years. He didn't. He inherited the core.

All I've been trying to say is that - to Hue - the Browns current sitch probably doesn't look any worse than the sitch Marv walked into, on the surface. Only time will tell.

[Bengal Dude]

I don't see any problem with Hue leaving. Very few people would pass up the opportunity to take a job where there are only 32 that exist in the world. He was smart in taking the guaranteed thing instead of waiting and potentially getting the gig in 2 years.

[Benton]

(04-11-2016, 04:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've actually been saying the same thing about Tobin the last couple days, so obviously I agree with you - but it's not like those things were totally obvious when Marv took the job. we can only say that now with the benefit of hindsight.

Chad, TJ, Rudi, etc were still pretty green going into 2003. Unlike Fred though, I don't think Marv made those players. I also think it's silly to act like Marv flipped the whole team over in 2 years. He didn't. He inherited the core.

All I've been trying to say is that - to Hue - the Browns current sitch probably doesn't look any worse than the sitch Marv walked into, on the surface. Only time will tell.

Back then I don't think anyone really knew anything about Tobin. And really, it's still mostly speculation. But I like cause and effect, and it wasn't long after we hired Tobin that we started making very good player and personnel decisions. Back then, I was just happy we were drafting better. And you could be right, the Browns may have finally found their Tobin (or Marvin or Katie or whoever it was that changed the environment here).

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2016, 04:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:  I also think it's silly to act like Marv flipped the whole team over in 2 years. He didn't. He inherited the core.

It is not "acting" when I post the numbers.

In two years Marvin flipped 2/3rds of the starters and 3/4ths of the entire roster.

[BigPapaKain]

I might give you $100 in six months, but this guy is offering you $90 guaranteed right now. What deal do you take?

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 05:00 PM)Benton Wrote: Back then I don't think anyone really knew anything about Tobin. And really, it's still mostly speculation. But I like cause and effect, and it wasn't long after we hired Tobin that we started making very good player and personnel decisions. Back then, I was just happy we were drafting better. And you could be right, the Browns may have finally found their Tobin (or Marvin or Katie or whoever it was that changed the environment here).

Totally agree. Tobin was hired in '99 and promoted to his current role as quasi-GM in 2002. His drafts have been the backbone for all the winning teams we've had. Marvin isn't the one out scouting and recommending these players during the college season. I'm sure he has a good amount of input and possibly the final say, but I really think Tobin is more responsible for finding these guys like the Geno's, MJ's and Iloka's.

As for the Browns, who knows? Maybe this analytics guy will be a big success. It's easy to laugh at them, but I think it's worth a shot.

(04-11-2016, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not "acting" when I post the numbers.

In two years Marvin flipped 2/3rds of the starters and 3/4ths of the entire roster.

Fred, name the top 10 players from the 2005 squad.

Marv brought us Tory and Deltha. The rest will be players that he inherited.

[BengalsRocker]

(04-11-2016, 12:08 PM)fullonbehavior Wrote: Anyone who thinks Hue will be back in Cincinnati while Mike Brown is still alive is crazy.  Hue could have taken a job with ANY of the other teams in the league and been welcomed back.  Mike Brown HATES the Cleveland Browns.  As much as MB probably loves Hue, taking a job with the Browns was probably seen as the biggest betrayal to the Brown family possible.

I seriously doubt that Mike Brown has anything against the Browns organization at this point.


It was those who wronged his father in the past that the grudge lies.

MB holds high respect for coaching.  Probably higher than most owners.

Hue is supposedly a highly regarded knowledgeable coach in the league.

I don't see why MB wouldn't want Hue back in some form if there was an opening on the Bengals and his services were needed.

[BengalsRocker]

I guess if you take all of the numbers and arguments away.

90s going forward. Crap job. Notorious bad ownership by public and media perception.

Current Browns job. Crap job. Notorious bad ownership by public and media perception.

Is it really that different?

The Browns really want to change. Hell they haven't even minded spending money.

Tobin is the X factor like others have mentioned.

We could easily be rooting for a below .500 team if he were not in the equation.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-11-2016, 12:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd say Browns fans probably feel the same way about Hue. Carson Wentz looks like a solid prospect. RGIII is the most promising vet they've had in years and could probably play the Kitna role. They have some solid young players, especially if Gordon continues to keep his nose clean. 

(04-11-2016, 06:42 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As for the Browns, who knows? Maybe this analytics guy will be a big success. It's easy to laugh at them, but I think it's worth a shot.

Figures I say this stuff, then log on to PFT and see the following headlines:

Report: Josh Gordon failed another drug test
Report Suggests Hue Jackson is a Poor Fit for Browns' Analytical Staff

[Benton]

(04-11-2016, 07:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Figures I say this stuff, then log on to PFT and see the following headlines:

Report: Josh Gordon failed another drug test
Report Suggests Hue Jackson is a Poor Fit for Browns' Analytical Staff

http://www.ohio.com/sports/browns/browns-coach-hue-jackson-sticks-with-plan-to-call-plays-completes-offensive-coaching-staff-welcomes-defensive-coordinator-ray-horton-1.656652

When I read that I thought they were moving away from the analytics stuff (basically it says Hue is going to be the offensive signal caller). I don't see how you can manage a team, manage your staff, come up with an offensive gameplan, call plays AND base those plays off of data. A HC only has 168 in a week. Take a third out for sleeping and eating, and he's got 100 hours each week to make sure all his staff is doing what they're doing, meet with players and help develop them, come up with a plan and try to base that plan off the analytics reports.

That's going to be rough.