Bengals players upset with Coyle

[Shake n Blake]

(09-26-2016, 10:42 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: You realize that more than just a secondary can give up TDs, right?

Adam Jones and Kirkpatrick both have only 1 TD scored against them. Have held Marshall, Decker, and AB in check.

Iloka gave up one passing TD to Grimble. But overall they've done well.

It's the coverage against tight ends and running backs that has hurt them the most. There's been 4 passing TDs to tight ends or running backs.

We're not used to the lack of defensive line play. 4 sacks all year with a healthy Dunlap and Atkins. Will Clarke leads the team with sacks.

The Bengals defense has been thrown at 107 times. But yet they are 4th best in lowest completion percentage allowed.

Now, not only is the defensive line struggling with pass coverage, we all have seen it's woes with the run game. Allowed 109 YPG. Even after only allowed 52 yards last game. But the Jets and Steelers both had over 125 rushing yards.

Also, when it comes to secondary, watch the Broncos game again. Adam Jones struggled, but there was a ton of dink and dunk plays against our LBs. It seems the defense likes to play off and have a very big bend but don't break approach.

Sure. Secondary had some trouble last game. But outside of the deep pass to Jones and seam route to Iloka, the secondary has done well.

However. Dennard has been struggling mightily this season, which comes as a big surprise. Shaw looks light years ahead of him.

I agree with almost everything in this post. The secondary hasn't been terrible outside of E. Sanders owning Pacman. The dline hasn't shown up yet as far as pressure goes, but I disagree that they've struggled against the run. They held the Broncos to 52 yards. They didn't exactly stuff the Steelers, but they did hold them to around 3.0 ypc. Forte was solid, but he didn't exactly run us over.

(09-26-2016, 10:58 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: They've gone against Sanders, Thomas, AB, Marshall, and Decker. Done well in the first 2 games. Not so much against Sanders. Thomas did nothing until Lewis-Harris came in. But no one talks about that. Or that the defense was waiting on a play with their hands in the air.

Let's relax. Come talk about this team heading down the toilet if they lose to a team that hasn't made the playoffs last year.

You raise good points here. It hasn't been all bad with the secondary. That said, excellence (in regular season 1 pm games anyway) is what we've come to expect. There's cause for concern with all the 40+ yard plays, and that really was an awful game from Pacman. Honestly I think DreKirk has outplayed him this year.

One is playing like he wants a big contract, the other is playing like he just signed a new contract. Go figure. Fwiw, we need to beat playoff teams too. I refuse to accept a loss just because the opponent was quality. 

(09-26-2016, 11:13 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Did he? 

I don't recall the Bengals having great DB play until Zimmer arrived. Same Zimmer who got good play out of other team's castoff DBs like Newman, Nelson, Crocker, Clements. Hall was 2nd team All-Pro under Zimmer. Got Jones to revive his career as a CB.

(The same Zimmer who's D right now is 1st in sacks and 2nd in INT up there in Minnesota with arguably lesser players.)

In fairness, Coyle was the position coach for almost all of those guys. It wouldn't be fair to rip him now, yet give all the credit for the good times and players to someone else.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2016, 12:07 AM)J24 Wrote: Both Tory James and Deltha O'Neal made pro bowls during the pre zimmer era. Also Joeseph and Hall both had good rookie seasons pre zimmer.

(09-27-2016, 12:53 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: In fairness, Coyle was the position coach for almost all of those guys. It wouldn't be fair to rip him now, yet give all the credit for the good times and players to someone else.

Bengals Passing D Rankings Since 2000

2000: 23rd
2001: 12th
2002: 13th
*Coyle Becomes DB Coach*
2003: 24th
2004: 13th
2005: 26th
2006: 31st
2007: 26th
*Zimmer Arrives*
2008: 15th
2009: 6th
2010: 14th
2011: 9th
*Coyle Leaves*
2012: 7th
2013: 5th
*Zimmer Leaves*
2014: 20th
2015: 20th


It's pretty easy to say that Coyle wasn't the one who succeeded and it was Zimmer when you look at that. The Bengals had two of their three best passing defenses since 2000 while Coyle was gone and Zimmer was here. They regularly chilled in the mid-20s while Coyle was here and Zimmer wasn't.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Interesting Sidenote Fact: Not a single defense in the entire NFL gave up 4,000 passing yards in 2000. Just to realize how much the game has changed.

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-26-2016, 07:29 PM)Trademark Wrote: Word out of Cincinnati is that there’s already friction in the defensive backs meeting room, which he leads.

They might have a point. The Bengals have gotten torched this year in a way they hadn’t under now-Dolphins defensive coordinator Vance Joseph.

The secondary has already allowed nine passing touchdowns, second-most in the league. New Broncos starter Trevor Siemian torched the Bengals Sunday for 312 yards and four scores in Denver’s 29-17 road victory. The Bengals surrendered two touchdown passes over 40 yards Sunday; they gave up just six pass plays of that length in each of Joseph’s last two years in Cincinnati.

Players are particularly upset with some of Coyle’s technique instructions; at least one player believes he’s coaching them not to lose instead of coaching them to win.

If this sounds familiar, it should. Dolphins players privately (and at times, even publicly) were critical of Coyle’s scheme and the way he interacted with him. One Dolphins player who was personally fond of Coyle said Monday that he wasn’t surprised that friction has followed him to a new city.

http://www.cincyjungle.com/2016/9/26/13065006/bengals-players-upset-kevin-coyle-per-report

People will discredit this as just media-generated, but I had a very strong belief of this watching the game Sunday.  You know the game, the home opener against the defending Super Bowl Champs...that are in your conference.  

I was screaming to press up the DBs.  I have no idea why you waste first round after first round selection on a position that you have play like a Free Agent that you have no confidence in playing.

The Bengals have a very good front four, supposedly, and they rarely blitz because of it.  The rely on the front four to get pressure.  That makes sense.  They play so conservative with their DBs that they allowed Simien to get comfortable with quick passes that were there all day.   Never an adjustment.  

Coyle is playing like Marv, not to lose, which is ridiculous.  We have coaches with more aggressive play-calling and defensive schemes starting rookies when our team is loaded with ridiculous talent.  

This is what I hate more than anything about the coaching staff.  This deflates your team's energy, and you are just hoping for mistakes that won't come.  It had better change.  

[Sled21]

This guy even admits his story is full of it in the last paragraph......


All of this is why I'm not pinning the Bengals' early-season struggles on Coyle. If this continues throughout the season, then we can re-hash this, but for now, this is nothing more than 'noise' that we can probably keep on the backburner for now.

The guy even admits he's full of it in the last paragraph.......

[yellowxdiscipline]

(09-26-2016, 07:36 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I read the report and didn't see any credible source. It's coming from a writer from Miami who has no affiliation with Cincinnati. Why would someone all the way in Miami know what's going on in the locker room and meeting rooms?

Think it's just a guy trying to get his 15 minutes of fame. Until I see sources other than "Word out of Cincinnati is that there’s already friction in the defensive backs meeting room, which he leads."

He even brings up a player taking about Coyle but never gives a name. Also, why would this guy hear what our players are saying but no one in the actual Cincinnati area?

Honestly im not surprised by this.. I mean back when Coyle coached our secondary we weren't exactly the best unit. We had guys like J Joe and Hall, but we'd still get torched from time to time. Then Coyle moves on and we hire Vance, and things get better. You cant argue that getting torched by a relatively unknown quarterback like Trevor Semen isn't something that reminds you of the Breshnehan and Coyle show. Kevin walked into a pretty good situation in Miami and ruined it.

[Housh]

Id be mad too if my incompetent coaches had me playing prevent with 10 mins left in the 4th

[*ochocincos*]

I'm crossing my fingers that Kei'Varae Russell will catch on to the secondary scheme within a few weeks and will boost the performance of the secondary.
For those that don't remember or never knew, Russell was scouted as being a potential starter as a 2nd or 3rd corner.
He has experience on the outside and in the slot and can play press, off, and zone. Versatile DB.

Once he feels comfortable with the scheme, I expect he will be better than CLH when the Bengals need to call on a backup.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2016, 02:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Bengals Passing D Rankings Since 2000

2000: 23rd
2001: 12th
2002: 13th
*Coyle Becomes DB Coach*
2003: 24th
2004: 13th
2005: 26th
2006: 31st
2007: 26th
*Zimmer Arrives*
2008: 15th
2009: 6th
2010: 14th
2011: 9th
*Coyle Leaves*
2012: 7th
2013: 5th
*Zimmer Leaves*
2014: 20th
2015: 20th


It's pretty easy to say that Coyle wasn't the one who succeeded and it was Zimmer when you look at that. The Bengals had two of their three best passing defenses since 2000 while Coyle was gone and Zimmer was here. They regularly chilled in the mid-20s while Coyle was here and Zimmer wasn't.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Interesting Sidenote Fact: Not a single defense in the entire NFL gave up 4,000 passing yards in 2000. Just to realize how much the game has changed.

Honestly I think bulk yardage is a terrible way to judge a pass defense. Look at it this way...would anyone say Dalton had a great season simply because he threw for 4264 yards? Or would they look at the 18 TDs, 21 INTs, 6.6 YPA and 78.9 passer rating?

Last year, our pass D "allowed" the 2nd most pass attempts in the NFL. Naturally, this means they're not going to rank highly in yards allowed. This doesn't mean opposing QBs were efficient against us. Quite the opposite actually. We ranked:

4th in yards per attempt (6.6) -  an awful number for a QB
2nd fewest TDs allowed (18)
3rd most INTs (21)
5th best in rating (78.9)
20th in completion % (64.6)

Looking over all these numbers, you start to get the whole picture. The pass D is still outstanding. Probably the best in the league at limiting big plays. More INTs than TDs allowed. So why did teams pass on us so much when the numbers were so awful? Maybe because teams that are behind tend to pass more. Or maybe teams felt they couldn't run on us. Either way, the pass D has remained great after Zimmer's departure, IMO.

[WeezyBengal]

I dont think its any coincidence that our secondary has struggled and Vance Joseph is no longer the coach here.

That being said, a lot of our cornerbacks are veteran players who know technique and know the playbook. Why would a player like Pacman or Kirkpatrick completely change their technique this year, even if Coyle wants them to?

Im not sure I believe this story, but there has to be something said for how bad the secondary has played this year with virtually the same guys as last year...

Also, I found myself wondering why Pacman and other players in our secondary were playing so far off receivers last game/giving them such a huge cushion. Could this be part of Coyle's technique? Because that shit wasn't working on Sunday...

[Shake n Blake]

It's fair to bring up Siemien, and yes it was awful, but let's not act like this has gone on in all 3 games. This secondary did masterful jobs against Fitzpatrick, Pig Ben and all their fantastic receivers. Those were 2 of the most dynamic pass offenses in the NFL last year. Which makes the Denver game even more puzzling - and frustrating.l

Also to those suggesting it was Coyle's call to go conservative, I'm pretty sure that would be Guenther's call or possibly Marvin's. Not the DB position coach. I'm sure Coyle and Haslett (former DCs) can offer input, but in the end that's Pauline and Marv's call to make.

[yellowxdiscipline]

I'm a strong believer in the saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

There's something to this story.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2016, 12:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's fair to bring up Siemien, and yes it was awful, but let's not act like this has gone on in all 3 games. This secondary did masterful jobs against Fitzpatrick, Pig Ben and all their fantastic receivers. Those were 2 of the most dynamic pass offenses in the NFL last year. Which makes the Denver game even more puzzling - and frustrating.l

Also to those suggesting it was Coyle's call to go conservative, I'm pretty sure that would be Guenther's call or possibly Marvin's. Not the DB position coach. I'm sure Coyle and Haslett (former DCs) can offer input, but in the end that's Pauline and Marv's call to make.

It does need to be pointed out that it's the same Fitzpatrick that the Chiefs just dismantled for 6 interceptions and a 18.2 QB Rating, and the same Rapistburger that just scored 3 points against the Eagles even when it wasn't pouring heavy rain.

Last year was last year. I don't think either team is very good this year. (Officiating sure didn't help prove that against the Steelers, though.)

[Shake n Blake]

(09-27-2016, 02:53 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It does need to be pointed out that it's the same Fitzpatrick that the Chiefs just dismantled for 6 interceptions and a 18.2 QB Rating, and the same Rapistburger that just scored 3 points against the Eagles even when it wasn't pouring heavy rain.

Last year was last year. I don't think either team is very good this year. (Officiating sure didn't help prove that against the Steelers, though.)

Still too early to declare the Jets a bad pass offense and Ben in Ben so I'll chalk the Eagles game up as a fluke for now. We're only 3 games in so it's a little early to make judgement calls on either, IMO.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-27-2016, 04:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Still too early to declare the Jets a bad pass offense and Ben in Ben so I'll chalk the Eagles game up as a fluke for now. We're only 3 games in so it's a little early to make judgement calls on either, IMO.

I'm not chalking the Eagles game up as a fluke. The refs actually called holding on the Steelers OL multiple times in that game. (Probably still not as much as they deserved.)

I honestly think that without their uncalled holding, it's really not a good team. They barely beat the D that Semen just lit up, and that's with 12 uncalled holds and two bad knee calls.

- - - - -

But you are right on the whole 3 games is early thing.

[wolfkaosaun]

(09-27-2016, 01:41 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: I'm a strong believer in the saying "Where there's smoke, there's fire."

There's something to this story.

There is. Miami still hates Coyle.

[jj22]

Miami hated Coyle's scheme, but they got the same D with Vance. Jokes on them. Maybe Vance will call it differently.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

I've seen less cushion in the sofa section of a furniture store.

[jfkbengals]

(09-27-2016, 02:47 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:
Bengals Passing D Rankings Since 2000

2000: 23rd
2001: 12th
2002: 13th
*Coyle Becomes DB Coach*
2003: 24th
2004: 13th
2005: 26th
2006: 31st
2007: 26th
*Zimmer Arrives*
2008: 15th
2009: 6th
2010: 14th
2011: 9th
*Coyle Leaves*
2012: 7th
2013: 5th
*Zimmer Leaves*
2014: 20th
2015: 20th


It's pretty easy to say that Coyle wasn't the one who succeeded and it was Zimmer when you look at that. The Bengals had two of their three best passing defenses since 2000 while Coyle was gone and Zimmer was here. They regularly chilled in the mid-20s while Coyle was here and Zimmer wasn't.




- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Interesting Sidenote Fact: Not a single defense in the entire NFL gave up 4,000 passing yards in 2000. Just to realize how much the game has changed.

Or alternatively, you can say the passing defense got better after Hall and Joseph were both past their sophomore seasons, when you can expect the biggest strides, and really excelled when we got a consistent pass rush.

The DBs were taking balls away from receivers at a better clip under Coyle's watch than any other coach as far as I can recall, so I think he his techniques are spot on and deserves the credit.

[Lawless_1]

(09-26-2016, 08:26 PM)jj22 Wrote: Stat's say otherwise, but Vance is the one that poisoned this D with the zone. The system was built for man coverage, and I'm hoping Coyle reestablishes man coverage as our dominant coverage.

Good luck with that. We don't have the personal to run man coverage. 

[BengalChris]

(09-27-2016, 12:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's fair to bring up Siemien, and yes it was awful, but let's not act like this has gone on in all 3 games. This secondary did masterful jobs against Fitzpatrick, Pig Ben and all their fantastic receivers. Those were 2 of the most dynamic pass offenses in the NFL last year. Which makes the Denver game even more puzzling - and frustrating.l

Also to those suggesting it was Coyle's call to go conservative, I'm pretty sure that would be Guenther's call or possibly Marvin's. Not the DB position coach. I'm sure Coyle and Haslett (former DCs) can offer input, but in the end that's Pauline and Marv's call to make.

Yep, I agree.


You called him Pauline. LOL