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I went off tangent in another thread about this, but would like to hear what others think of this as a lone subject of discussion.
I really believe that this franchise's chickens are coming home to roost with regards to drafting so few real contributors in the early rounds of the last 3 drafts. We have literally 2 guys that have shown jack squat from this group, and one has regressed significantly from the time when he has success. Boyd is the obvious gem out of this group in terms of right now, and Hill has shown things, but not so much recently.
As for the others, we have Dennard, who looks nothing like a player worthy of a first. He's slow and often times lost. You draft players on round 1 to start, and I'd venture a guess that he'd be a liability in that role. In the meantime, he's been passed by a mid-rounder in Shaw.
The we have Ogbuehi. Jesus. I have no doubt that he's a great athlete for a man his size, but he just doesn't look strong enough to handle NFL ends. He can't hold a block to save his life and was mercifully benched 6 games into his tenure as the starter. Looks like the redshirt genius move wasn't quite the slam dunk it appeared to be. If a team took this guy with a top 10 pick, as was projected by some, he'd be well on his way to the major bust label if he was healthy enough to play a full season as a rookie.
Then there's Fisher. I have some hope for him due to the fact that I haven't seen enough from him. It's a bit troubling that a second round pick 1 year in gets passed over for a waaay past-his-prime vet in Winston when Ogbuehi gets yanked. You'd think a young player with some talent would get a vote of confidence. Ogbuehi sure did.
Jackson may be the second coming of Ty Law. Hard to tell when he's not on the field. Either way that's 3 years of first rounders contributing nothing. Worse yet, it's the team's future at the OT position in great question at best and on the toilet at worst.
IMO this is playing a major role in this team's issues this year. Bodine is a goat for many reasons, some legit, but Ogbuehi is a bigger liability. Much more was expected of and invested in Ced. They have no option at RT that gives you confidence.
Adam Jones may be falling off due to age, but after the last 4 drafts there should be an heir apparent ready to step up. There isn't. Adam is still better than any of these first rounders, although Dre is serviceable if not boneheaded. The golden era of this front office may be coming to an end, and it's starting to show.
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when you draft 2 CBs and 2 OTS in 3 years that high it's bad enough your over drafting at 2 position
when you already established starters in place
Dennard gets a D. Cedric gets a D...Fisher a incomplete from me. WJ3...who knows he's not going
to be a factor this year
at any rate you need contributions from your 1st and high 2nd rd picks in order to close that gap
or you end up looking like the Browns every yr.
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Unfortunately, injuries have been a big issue for our early picks, and have slowed their development. That's compounded by the fact that they overdrafted at CB and T, leaving the cupboard bare at other positions like WR and LB. They made those picks thinking they will have a dominant OL and a shutdown secondary that can compensate for other deficiencies, but when the guys are always hurt and not getting the reps they need, it sets that plan back.
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(10-17-2016, 01:27 AM)Whatever Wrote: Unfortunately, injuries have been a big issue for our early picks, and have slowed their development. That's compounded by the fact that they overdrafted at CB and T, leaving the cupboard bare at other positions like WR and LB. They made those picks thinking they will have a dominant OL and a shutdown secondary that can compensate for other deficiencies, but when the guys are always hurt and not getting the reps they need, it sets that plan back.
I can see the injury argument for the CBs. As for the tackles, they may just suck. It's becoming apparent that if Ogbuehi is going to be any good, it's going to be a long and painful process getting him to that point because he sucks right now. I wouldn't be surprised to see them draft another OT when Zeitler leaves and move Ced to guard where he played well at A&M. No idea about Fisher.
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"They don't need to draft players who need to contribute quickly. The Bengals can draft BPA, that's what the good teams do. The Bengals are the deepest team in the league." -Everyone who kept pshaw-ing at the utter lack of production from the Bengals drafts the last handful of years whenever I pointed out that the Bengals hadn't been drafting very well for awhile now.
After the Gio pick in the beginning of the 2nd round of 2013, it's been pretty barren.
Not drafting any good players for 3 3/4th drafts, refusing to use FA, and then losing Nelson/Jones this offseason finally caught up with the Bengals.
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(10-17-2016, 02:39 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: "They don't need to draft players who need to contribute quickly. The Bengals can draft BPA, that's what the good teams do. The Bengals are the deepest team in the league." -Everyone who kept pshaw-ing at the utter lack of production from the Bengals drafts the last handful of years whenever I pointed out that the Bengals hadn't been drafting very well for awhile now.
After the Gio pick in the beginning of the 2nd round of 2013, it's been pretty barren.
Not drafting any good players for 3 3/4th drafts, refusing to use FA, and then losing Nelson/Jones this offseason finally caught up with the Bengals.
I disagree. If your team has glaring needs they need to address them. We've had a good team and some really great players that made up for some not so good players. When it came down to it we didn't have enough talent to do much in the playoffs. Look at the teams winning in the playoffs and Superbowls, they improve year after year a lot of times picking up solid players through free agency to fill glaring weaknesses.
Because of our philosophy on free agency that makes it vital we draft day one starters to come in and make us better. Unfortunately these guys are getting hurt and we end up worse then we were before. By the time we develop our draft pick it's time to sign them or draft new blood.
We are weaker this year in WR, Safety, o-line, and in Offensive Coordinator.
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No, no, no! Let's stick to the ever popular conspiracy theories. The league has scripted it this way. For several years we were told we drafted GREAT, BUT..and this is the big but, we couldn't win a playoff game because it's scripted that way so...the script says on page 874 paragraph 6 that our first and second round picks all have to suck so we miss the playoffs and go 4-12.. lather, rinse, repeat.. See how fun conspiracy theories are if you're creative enough?
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I don't necessarily mind drafting two OT's high and even going in and investing 3 first round picks in recent years on CB....what really sticks in the throat is that having made that investment we/re getting such poor returns..... to the point where never mind a strength those positions start to look like a liability.
As discussed above this has a knock on impact...we miss out on players (e.g. LBs, WRs) in other areas.
The other impact is that the clubs choices for hard balling Zeitler and Dre K in contract negotiations is limited.
They're not exactly under threat for their starting positions based on merit right now. So do we let them go and make a bad position potentially worse??? or do we over -pay to keep some stability and let the recent draftees get yet more time to develop??
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Og has been a disaster. I really thought at the time of the draft that Fisher was the better player.
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(10-17-2016, 07:34 AM)Goalpost Wrote: Og has been a disaster. I really thought at the time of the draft that Fisher was the better player.
I was not impressed with the Og pick so not as surprised he's struggling...despite the Alexander hype.
The one which is looking like a bust which REALLY surprises me is Dennard.
It's rare for Lewis to call out a rookie as being impressive but he did for dennard, Zim was high on him and said he was like Leon Hall.
I don't trust DreK and was sure by this point Dennard would have replaced him and we could let Dre go. Not sure Dennard ever gets there....
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(10-17-2016, 07:44 AM)sonofstat Wrote: I was not impressed with the Og pick so not as surprised he's struggling...despite the Alexander hype.
The one which is looking like a bust which REALLY surprises me is Dennard.
It's rare for Lewis to call out a rookie as being impressive but he did for dennard, Zim was high on him and said he was like Leon Hall.
I don't trust DreK and was sure by this point Dennard would have replaced him and we could let Dre go. Not sure Dennard ever gets there....
You pretty much nailed it. Ogbuehi is a player that I had seen struggle when he transitioned in college from one side of the line to the other. Then, he had an injury. I was more than a little surprised that they would take him in Round 1 (especially with the WRs and DEs available that were of need). I remember seeing Whit struggle mightily early in his career, but I can't help but wonder if Ogbuehi has trouble adding size and strength. If anything, after his very short rookie season, he looks thinner??? And he sure doesn't seem to be stronger.
Dennard baffles me as well. He could be struggling due to a lack of playing time, but shouldn't he at least be a bit more assignment-safe by now? Williams, too. I think I underestimated just how much Vance Joseph meant to this secondary. This defense is a bottom tier group through 6 games, and I think the scheme and coaching has a lot to do with it.
At the root of all the problems for the defense is a lack of pass rush from the front four. They will rarely blitz, and if the front four don't create any pressure (which is quite often), this secondary gets picked apart. I think a lack of pass rush from MJ is a big part of the problem. Dunlap is having at least a solid year, but Geno and MJ are disappointments. That leads to a lot of issues on the back of the defense. Billings could have been a big plus here, ditto Hardison.
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(10-17-2016, 03:09 AM)Stonyhands Wrote: I disagree. If your team has glaring needs they need to address them. We've had a good team and some really great players that made up for some not so good players. When it came down to it we didn't have enough talent to do much in the playoffs. Look at the teams winning in the playoffs and Superbowls, they improve year after year a lot of times picking up solid players through free agency to fill glaring weaknesses.
Because of our philosophy on free agency that makes it vital we draft day one starters to come in and make us better. Unfortunately these guys are getting hurt and we end up worse then we were before. By the time we develop our draft pick it's time to sign them or draft new blood.
We are weaker this year in WR, Safety, o-line, and in Offensive Coordinator.
I dunno.....I think it's poor coaching versus talent issues in the playoffs. There is definitely a talent dropoff this season though....and bad coaching.
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(10-17-2016, 08:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You pretty much nailed it. Ogbuehi is a player that I had seen struggle when he transitioned in college from one side of the line to the other. Then, he had an injury. I was more than a little surprised that they would take him in Round 1 (especially with the WRs and DEs available that were of need). I remember seeing Whit struggle mightily early in his career, but I can't help but wonder if Ogbuehi has trouble adding size and strength. If anything, after his very short rookie season, he looks thinner??? And he sure doesn't seem to be stronger.
Dennard baffles me as well. He could be struggling due to a lack of playing time, but shouldn't he at least be a bit more assignment-safe by now? Williams, too. I think I underestimated just how much Vance Joseph meant to this secondary. This defense is a bottom tier group through 6 games, and I think the scheme and coaching has a lot to do with it.
At the root of all the problems for the defense is a lack of pass rush from the front four. They will rarely blitz, and if the front four don't create any pressure (which is quite often), this secondary gets picked apart. I think a lack of pass rush from MJ is a big part of the problem. Dunlap is having at least a solid year, but Geno and MJ are disappointments. That leads to a lot of issues on the back of the defense. Billings could have been a big plus here, ditto Hardison.
You nailed it
Lack of pass rush in second half yesterday is why Brady picked us apart.
Pass rush makes DBs look great. No pass rush makes DBs look awful.
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Just like Hayes took the fall for Hunt and Clarke not developing. Alexander should for Bodine, Ogb, and Fisher lack of development. Looks like these failed high picks have finally caught up to us.
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Guess Fisher is struggling as well , thought he would be the 1st tackle of the bench not Winston. Asked Jim Owczarski about it on twitter he said Fisher was struggling so they went with Winston instead. That's scary didn't think Fisher could be any worse then Oghuehi, hopefully just growing pains with these two,if not were in trouble for the future. Whit will retire soon and if Zeitler walks in free agency next year these two will be our starting tackles along with Bodine at center that could be scary.
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I said in the gameday thread that the last really good 1st round pick we had was AJ Green, and he turned out to be a great one. Eifert would be the second when healthy, and its a distant third after him. Let that sink in for a team that builds through the draft.
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We always hear "first round picks don't have to play, then sitting the bench is a good thing". Yet you look at the more successful teams in the league, teams like the Patriots and Seahawks, and their top picks are expected to contribute immediately. The problem is that these guys sit their first year or two, then we are expected to believe that year three is "actually their rookie year because they did not play earlier". So then it comes time to extend and no one really knows how good the guy is. Maybe this way of doing things is right, but it has not yet led to the ultimate goal.
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(10-17-2016, 08:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You pretty much nailed it. Ogbuehi is a player that I had seen struggle when he transitioned in college from one side of the line to the other. Then, he had an injury. I was more than a little surprised that they would take him in Round 1 (especially with the WRs and DEs available that were of need). I remember seeing Whit struggle mightily early in his career, but I can't help but wonder if Ogbuehi has trouble adding size and strength. If anything, after his very short rookie season, he looks thinner??? And he sure doesn't seem to be stronger.
Dennard baffles me as well. He could be struggling due to a lack of playing time, but shouldn't he at least be a bit more assignment-safe by now? Williams, too. I think I underestimated just how much Vance Joseph meant to this secondary. This defense is a bottom tier group through 6 games, and I think the scheme and coaching has a lot to do with it.
At the root of all the problems for the defense is a lack of pass rush from the front four. They will rarely blitz, and if the front four don't create any pressure (which is quite often), this secondary gets picked apart. I think a lack of pass rush from MJ is a big part of the problem. Dunlap is having at least a solid year, but Geno and MJ are disappointments. That leads to a lot of issues on the back of the defense. Billings could have been a big plus here, ditto Hardison.
Early on yesterday we got the pressure, which is key to disrupting that offense. Second half? Fuhgettaboutit. I'd also add that Pat Sims is playing very well this year.
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(10-17-2016, 10:55 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Guess Fisher is struggling as well , thought he would be the 1st tackle of the bench not Winston. Asked Jim Owczarski about it on twitter he said Fisher was struggling so they went with Winston instead. That's scary didn't think Fisher could be any worse then Oghuehi, hopefully just growing pains with these two,if not were in trouble for the future. Whit will retire soon and if Zeitler walks in free agency next year these two will be our starting tackles along with Bodine at center that could be scary.
No question, that is really scary. If they somehow missed on both Fisher and Ogbuehi, it would really set them back.
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(10-17-2016, 07:44 AM)sonofstat Wrote: I was not impressed with the Og pick so not as surprised he's struggling...despite the Alexander hype.
The one which is looking like a bust which REALLY surprises me is Dennard.
It's rare for Lewis to call out a rookie as being impressive but he did for dennard, Zim was high on him and said he was like Leon Hall.
I don't trust DreK and was sure by this point Dennard would have replaced him and we could let Dre go. Not sure Dennard ever gets there....
This shoulda been our first sign that Og would suck.
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