Florio making some familiar points

[Bengalholic]

I came across an article from PFT today, written by Florio, that struck me as interesting because it makes a couple points in it that have been talked about and debated going back to the old board:

'And before Bengals fans begin to clamor for change just for the sake of change, consider how bad the team in the 12 years before Lewis arrived.'

'Brown has tolerated much worse for much longer, and there’s no guarantee that he’ll find someone else as good or better than Lewis.'

How many times have we seen some version of these since the end of the 2013 season? While I agree with the overall article that Marvin will most likely be back next year, I continue to have an issue with the logic in the two sentences I quoted.

The 'change for the sake of change' statement has lost it's shelf life at this point. After 14 years, going 0-7 in the postseason and struggling mightily this year...it's not as though making a change would be a knee jerk reaction or whimsical decision to appease the fans. It wouldn't be change for the sake of change, it would be change in hope of achieving a new end result. 

Then he makes the points (often mentioned on the boards) about how the next HC might not be as good...and how bad the Bengals were before Marvin, which sometimes invokes the 'it could always be worse' or 'I don't wanna go back to the 90's' arguments in favor of keeping Marvin. My point on this has always been that there are no guarantees either way. Yeah, the next HC could end up being a disaster...or he might be the missing ingredient that takes the team to another level of success. At some point, a change has to be made, even if there's some risk associated with it.

I thought a statement made by Marvin to Paul Dehner was interesting...

'Everybody understands the object of the game is to win games. That’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players. It’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players as much as we can. When it’s not there then we have to get a new player.'

I would say to that...if the HC isn't getting the desired results, then maybe we have to get a new HC.

[Bengal Dude]

I rolled my eyes when I saw that. It seems like whenever Marvin's name comes up as a possibility for replacing, Florio will roll this stuff out. This is the fourth season in a row that he's posted this stuff. We also have to remember that Florio is a Steelers fan, so that's why he probably doesn't want Marvin replaced.

Since Marvin took over:

Swept Steelers: 1 (2009)
Split: 6 (2 of these seasons included a 2nd loss in the postseason)
Been swept: 6

Yeah, let's keep Marv and keep the same thing in place.

[Bengalholic]

(12-01-2016, 06:12 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I rolled my eyes when I saw that. It seems like whenever Marvin's name comes up as a possibility for replacing, Florio will roll this stuff out. This is the fourth season in a row that he's posted this stuff. We also have to remember that Florio is a Steelers fan, so that's why he probably doesn't want Marvin replaced.

Since Marvin took over:

Swept Steelers: 1 (2009)
Split: 6 (2 of these seasons included a 2nd loss in the postseason)
Been swept: 6

Yeah, let's keep Marv and keep the same thing in place.

Yep, Marvin is 8-21 against the Steelers (counting PO's) and 2-13 at home. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

I tell ya what kinda got under my skin.....the whole deal with wanting to remain in coaching to allow his son to get a foothold in the profession.  Now, there's certainly nothing wrong with helping your kids out, but that just stuck out to me as typical Bengals nepotism at play.

[CageTheBengal]

My only concern about moving on from Marvin is who gets the job and how long will they have to win.

If the HC gig is just handed off to Zampese or Guenther and they get a decade or so to coach then that doesn't sound like a good deal. At this point though we need to just try something new.

I just dont want to see the HC job given to one of the coordinators.

[CageTheBengal]

Also do we really know who would be responsible for the hiring process after Marvin?

Would it be led by Katie or Mike?

[jj22]

Groundhogs day.

[*bengalfan74*]

"Everybody has to perform, that’s why it’s professional sports".

This sentence here got me a little as well. Does Marvin consider  himself part of everybody ? I doubt it,


" So many times I think people tend to think that you start out with 90 guys, and that everybody gets to stay. Everybody doesn’t get to stay".

And does he really think we're stupid ? That we don't know that everybody in training camp doesn't get to stay ? It sounds to me more like a poor try at an excuse as to why no one is released in season. Like see we're hard, we cut people in training camp !

[fredtoast]

The argument against "change for the sake of change" made some sense when we were going to the playoffs every year. But not after a season like we are having right now.

[leonardfan40]

He's right, if we make a change things could get worse (although at 3-7-1 there isn't a large drop off to worry about).

It all comes down to the mindset of the bengals and Marvin fits that mindset perfectly.

If you're trying to win, you make a move. Unfortunately the bengals haven't tried to win in almost 3 decades (maybe they did around the 2005 season, but if so it was short lived). Instead they've been trying not to lose. You can see that in their hires and signings. Marvin also coaches (not to lose) that way which is probably why he's lasted this long. You'll never win at anything in life if you're just trying not to lose

[fredtoast]

(12-01-2016, 08:25 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: If you're trying to win, you make a move. Unfortunately the bengals haven't tried to win in almost 3 decades (maybe they did around the 2005 season, but if so it was short lived). Instead they've been trying not to lose. You can see that in their hires and signings. Marvin also coaches (not to lose) that way which is probably why he's lasted this long. You'll never win at anything in life if you're just trying not to lose

This makes no sense at all.

You seriously think the Bengals went to the playoffs 5 straight years without even trying to win?

And how exactly can we "see that in their hirings and signings"?  Are you saying that Mike Zimmer, Jay Gruden, and Hue Jackson did not want to win?

[leonardfan40]

(12-01-2016, 08:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes no sense at all.

You seriously think the Bengals went to the playoffs 5 straight years without even trying to win?

And how exactly can we "see that in their hirings and signings"?  Are you saying that Mike Zimmer, Jay Gruden, and Hue Jackson did not want to win?

No they weren't trying to win. They were trying not to lose and there is a big difference. The bengals are scared of going back to the 90's so they are afraid to get aggressive. Yes individual coaches like Zim certainly want to win, but none of them will ever succeed while being handicapped by ownership and the FO

[Shake n Blake]

(12-01-2016, 06:12 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: I rolled my eyes when I saw that. It seems like whenever Marvin's name comes up as a possibility for replacing, Florio will roll this stuff out. This is the fourth season in a row that he's posted this stuff. We also have to remember that Florio is a Steelers fan, so that's why he probably doesn't want Marvin replaced.

Since Marvin took over:

Swept Steelers: 1 (2009)
Split: 6 (2 of these seasons included a 2nd loss in the postseason)
Been swept: 6

Yeah, let's keep Marv and keep the same thing in place.

Get outta my brain. Yeah Florio has lived around Pittsburgh his entire life and for anyone paying attention, it's obvious that PFT is pro-Steelers. So naturally he loves Marv coaching the Bengals, and yeah he has been spewing the same BS every year when the subject comes up.

(12-01-2016, 06:40 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: My only concern about moving on from Marvin who gets the job and how long will they have to win.

If the HC gig is just handed off to Zampese or Guenther and they get a decade or so to coach then that doesn't sound like a good deal. At this point though we need to just try something new.

I just dont want to see the HC job given to one of the coordinators.

Ditto this as well. As much as it seems like the right time to move on from Marv, Mike's patience is a scary thing. The only time he fired a coach promptly was DlCK Lebeau. Shula, Coslet and Marv were given way too much leash.

(12-01-2016, 06:45 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Also do we really know who would be responsible for the hiring process after Marvin?

Would it be led by Katie or Mike?

Hard telling, but it seemed both had a say in the 2003 search. 

[mallorian69]

(12-01-2016, 06:02 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: I came across an article from PFT today, written by Florio, that struck me as interesting because it makes a couple points in it that have been talked about and debated going back to the old board:

'And before Bengals fans begin to clamor for change just for the sake of change, consider how bad the team in the 12 years before Lewis arrived.'

'Brown has tolerated much worse for much longer, and there’s no guarantee that he’ll find someone else as good or better than Lewis.'

How many times have we seen some version of these since the end of the 2013 season? While I agree with the overall article that Marvin will most likely be back next year, I continue to have an issue with the logic in the two sentences I quoted.

The 'change for the sake of change' statement has lost it's shelf life at this point. After 14 years, going 0-7 in the postseason and struggling mightily this year...it's not as though making a change would be a knee jerk reaction or whimsical decision to appease the fans. It wouldn't be change for the sake of change, it would be change in hope of achieving a new end result. 

Then he makes the points (often mentioned on the boards) about how the next HC might not be as good...and how bad the Bengals were before Marvin, which sometimes invokes the 'it could always be worse' or 'I don't wanna go back to the 90's' arguments in favor of keeping Marvin. My point on this has always been that there are no guarantees either way. Yeah, the next HC could end up being a disaster...or he might be the missing ingredient that takes the team to another level of success. At some point, a change has to be made, even if there's some risk associated with it.

I thought a statement made by Marvin to Paul Dehner was interesting...

'Everybody understands the object of the game is to win games. That’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players. It’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players as much as we can. When it’s not there then we have to get a new player.'

I would say to that...if the HC is getting the desired results, then maybe we have to get a new HC.

This sounds like Marvin is blaming everything on the players and taking none of it for himself. 

If that's true it's no wonder why it seems like guys aren't giving it their all in recent games.

I think Marvin has lost this team because of this type of attitude.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-02-2016, 03:17 AM)mallorian69 Wrote: Everybody understands the object of the game is to win games. That’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players. It’s our responsibility to pull it out of the players as much as we can. When it’s not there then we have to get a new player.'




This sounds like Marvin is blaming everything on the players and taking none of it for himself. 

If that's true it's no wonder why it seems like guys aren't giving it their all in recent games.

I think Marvin has lost this team because of this type of attitude.

Yes I agree.

Coaches need to evaluate that and make the decision.

They have players who either are not being coached up properly or lack the talent to begin with.

When you have them clinging for dear life to a bad pick or a player that just doesn't have the abilities in them is when they(coaches)hurt the team.

Time is of the essence.  You gotta know when to hold em', know when to fold em'.

To sit there and say those kind of things really wreaks of an overblown ego and not accepting any kind of misjudgement on his(or other coaches)part.

The last line he should practice what he preaches.

Get rid of the under-performing more quickly, or accept that certain coaches/assistants aren't getting it done and hold them accountable as well.

[fredtoast]

Now I am really confused.

i have been hearing over and over again how Marvin's biggest flaw is that he does not hols any players accountable.

Now when he says he is going to hold players accountable he gets ripped for that also.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2016, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am really confused.

i have been hearing over and over again how Marvin's biggest flaw is that he does not hols any players accountable.

Now when he says he is going to hold players accountable he gets ripped for that also.

Where is he holding them accountable?  Nugent is still here, and underperformers are still on the field.  Talk is cheap.

[Bengal Dude]

(12-01-2016, 06:45 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: Also do we really know who would be responsible for the hiring process after Marvin?

Would it be led by Katie or Mike?

(12-01-2016, 09:15 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Hard telling, but it seemed both had a say in the 2003 search. 

From what I remember, Mike was leaning towards Coughlin, but Katie made a push for Marvin. She campaigned for him and Mike listened to her.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-02-2016, 05:23 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: From what I remember, Mike was leaning towards Coughlin, but Katie made a push for Marvin. She campaigned for him and Mike listened to her.

Oh no......we're doomed

[RiverRat13]

Coughlin was the leader until he brought into the interview a plan that included bolstering the front office through more personnel (i.e. scouts). That turned Mikey off.

That's not me trolling. That was reported at the time.