Dre Kirkpatrick stock is rising

[wolverine515151]

(12-14-2016, 09:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not.  I have posted stats that show that I know what I am talking about.  I know that the Bengals CBs don't switch up based on receiver, and I also know that Hall was the one who got beat on the td, not Kirkpatrick.  But based on your brilliant logic Dre is to blame when another CB gets beaten

All you know is what you hear from know-nothings on talk radio and here on these boards.



There is no "stat" behind that ranking.  Based on the PFF formula for individual rankings a CB who played more snaps than Dre and messed up more often than Dre could still be ranked ahead of him.  PFF individual rankings are a complete joke.

That td would not have been possible if kirpatrick wasn't beaten badly most of that drive. They wouldn't have been in scoring position. You dont even have the ability to comprehend simple english.

How would hall have gotten beaten for a td if not for Kirkpatrick being beaten badly most of the drive so all they had to do was throw the ball into the end zone for an easy score. On top of that there was a miscommunication on that play and it looked like Kirkpatrick should have been covering the guy in the end zone. How would you know unless you actually asked the bengals coaches whose fault it was.

[wolverine515151]

(12-14-2016, 09:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No it is not.  I have posted stats that show that I know what I am talking about.  I know that the Bengals CBs don't switch up based on receiver, and I also know that Hall was the one who got beat on the td, not Kirkpatrick.  But based on your brilliant logic Dre is to blame when another CB gets beaten

All you know is what you hear from know-nothings on talk radio and here on these boards.



There is no "stat" behind that ranking.  Based on the PFF formula for individual rankings a CB who played more snaps than Dre and messed up more often than Dre could still be ranked ahead of him.  PFF individual rankings are a complete joke.

PFF is a service used by 19 out of the 32 NFL teams and analyzes every player on every play of every game to aid in game research. So you think 60% of the nfl teams are a joke. You would be the one who is a joke

He ranked 104 out of 112 corners they ranked on PFF.

Most-targeted NFL cornerbacks in coverage last season: 1. Marcus Peters, KC (137) 2. Dre Kirkpatrick, CIN (112) 3. Antwon Blake, PIT (110)

The fact that he was targeted second most last season proves he was letting his guy get open.

2015 CIN CB 75 33 14 7.8 28 44% 34 15% 59.0 17.0 29%

Football outsiders had him ranked 34 in pass coverage, which is below average.

2015 CIN CB 11 3 0 14.0 100 27% 78 27%

Football outsiders had him ranked 100 in run defense which is WAY below average.

You combine his way below ranking on the PFF last season, his below average ranking pass coverage on football outsiders, his way below average run defense on football outsiders, his ZERO INTERCEPTIONS, as well as one of the league leaders in MISSED TACKLES proves that last season Kirkpatrick was bad by anyone's standard.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: PFF is a service used by 19 out of the 32 NFL teams and analyzes every player on every play of every game to aid in game research. So you think 60% of the nfl teams are a joke. You would be the one who is a joke

He ranked 104 out of 112 corners they ranked on PFF.

Most-targeted NFL cornerbacks in coverage last season: 1. Marcus Peters, KC (137) 2. Dre Kirkpatrick, CIN (112) 3. Antwon Blake, PIT (110)

The fact that he was targeted second most last season proves he was letting his guy get open.  
             
2015 CIN CB 75 33 14 7.8 28 44% 34 15% 59.0 17.0 29%

Football outsiders had him ranked 34 in pass coverage, which is below average.

2015 CIN CB 11 3 0 14.0 100 27% 78 27%

Football outsiders had him ranked 100 in run defense which is WAY below average.

You combine his way below ranking on the PFF last season, his below average ranking on football outsiders pass coverage, his way below average run defense on football outsiders,  his ZERO INTERCEPTIONS, as well as one of the league leaders in MISSED TACKLES proves that last season Kirkpatrick was bad by anyone's standard.

BOOM!

You are correct on the Pitt game as well.  TYPICALLY, the Bengals don't switch CBs from one side to the other, but Brown owned Dre so badly that opening drive, they switched Pacman to cover him if memory serves, and he was pretty much silent the rest of that game. One thing I certainly remember, Brown thoroughly abused Kirkpatrick on the opening drive. He and Pig Pen were playing catch out there....

[Sled21]

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Most-targeted NFL cornerbacks in coverage last season: 1. Marcus Peters, KC (137) 2. Dre Kirkpatrick, CIN (112) 3. Antwon Blake, PIT (110)

The fact that he was targeted second most last season proves he was letting his guy get open.  
              

What it really shows is just that QB's don't want to throw it to Adam Jones' side of the field.... you know, the guy Rueben thinks we should cut....

[J24]

(12-14-2016, 12:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think he could be great with better pressure from the front four.  The Bengals are near the bottom of the NFL in sacks and sack differential.  More pressure = more INTs from the secondary.  That is why our first pick has to be a pass rushing RDE.  There are three I covet.  

We had pretty good pressure last season and he gave us a similar season.

[fredtoast]

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: PFF is a service used by 19 out of the 32 NFL teams and analyzes every player on every play of every game to aid in game research. So you think 60% of the nfl teams are a joke. You would be the one who is a joke

PFF keeps track of some raw data that teams can use, but noit a single NFL team puts any credence in their individual rating system.  

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Most-targeted NFL cornerbacks in coverage last season: 1. Marcus Peters, KC (137) 2. Dre Kirkpatrick, CIN (112) 3. Antwon Blake, PIT (110)

The fact that he was targeted second most last season proves he was letting his guy get open.  

The fact that he was targeted a lot does not mean he was letting his guy get open.  It just means Adam Jones was better.  If Dre was letting his guy get open then he would not have ranked 18th in lowest completion percentage allowed.

(12-14-2016, 10:32 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Football outsiders had him ranked 34 in pass coverage, which is below average.

Link?

The numbers I posted were from Football Outsiders.  I have the Football Outsiders almanac from last year.  I don't see where they have him ranked 34th in pass coverage among CBs.  Football Outsiders had him ranked 8th (of 75) in yards per target, 32nd in success rate, and 19th in completion percentage allowed.

And how do you figure that 34th is "below average"?  What is the "average ranking" that he is below?

[fredtoast]

(12-14-2016, 11:16 AM)Wyche Wrote: BOOM!

You are correct on the Pitt game as well.  TYPICALLY, the Bengals don't switch CBs from one side to the other, but Brown owned Dre so badly that opening drive, they switched Pacman to cover him if memory serves, and he was pretty much silent the rest of that game.  One thing I certainly remember, Brown thoroughly abused Kirkpatrick on the opening drive.  He and Pig Pen were playing catch out there....

This is the problem with fan perception.  The Steelers drove 80 yards on 12 plays.  Before the td that Hall allowed Brown had 2 catches for 27 yards and drew a PI call.  And based on those three plays many fans assume that Kirkpatrick is awful.
 Yet I am the one who gets accused of cherry picking.  If I looked back at every drive I am sure I can find soem bad passes by Dalton and some drops by Green.  Yet for some reason people do not judge those two players by 2 or 3 plays nfroma  single drive.

Just like EVERY cornerback in the league Dre gave up some completions.  But when you look at his entire body of work he generally ranked among the top 30 in every coverage stat I can find.  

[bengalguy71]

(12-14-2016, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: .  If I looked back at every drive I am sure I can find soem bad passes by Dalton and some drops by Green.  Yet for some reason people do not judge those two players by 2 or 3 plays nfroma  single drive.

  

I would agree with you on Green, but Dalton??  In here???


There are/were many in here that if Dalton's QBR isn't 100 or above, they are ready to crucify him!!!

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-14-2016, 02:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is the problem with fan perception.  The Steelers drove 80 yards on 12 plays.  Before the td that Hall allowed Brown had 2 catches for 27 yards and drew a PI call.  And based on those three plays many fans assume that Kirkpatrick is awful.
 Yet I am the one who gets accused of cherry picking.  If I looked back at every drive I am sure I can find soem bad passes by Dalton and some drops by Green.  Yet for some reason people do not judge those two players by 2 or 3 plays nfroma  single drive.

Just like EVERY cornerback in the league Dre gave up some completions.  But when you look at his entire body of work he generally ranked among the top 30 in every coverage stat I can find.  

(12-14-2016, 02:59 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: I would agree with you on Green, but Dalton??  In here???


There are/were many in here that if Dalton's QBR isn't 100 or above, they are ready to crucify him!!!

Yeah, fred, I gotta agree with this^ in regards to Dalton.

Dre gave up the other yards on that drive, and I specifically recall Lap roasting him on the radio broadcast over that first drive....this all goes back to draft hype in reality.  Is Dre terrible? Nope.  Is he Deion Sanders? Hell no.  He's been pretty pedestrian until this year, and that just irks some due to the fact that he was a first round pick with high expectations.

[wolverine515151]

That first drive he was targeted the whole time. He gave up multiple catches. That is why Guenther yanked Kirkpatrick off of brown and put jones on brown. Jones shut him down the whole game.  So you don't blame Kirkpatrick and the coaches do? I trust the coaches evaluation before I trust some hack like you pounding the table with cherry picked stats.  

(12-14-2016, 02:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PFF keeps track of some raw data that teams can use, but noit a single NFL team puts any credence in their individual rating system.

How would you know if teams don't use individual pff stats. You just stomp your feet and squeal that they don't. I guarantee teams use PFF individual stats. His 104 out of 112 indicates a far below average corner.

(12-14-2016, 02:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact that he was targeted a lot does not mean he was letting his guy get open. It just means Adam Jones was better. If Dre was letting his guy get open then he would not have ranked 18th in lowest completion percentage allowed.

That is a very important statistic. A qb would not target a corner if he had blanket coverage the whole game.  Why would qb's be throwing that much to a corner if he was giving blanket coverage.  THEY WOULDN'T !!!

(12-14-2016, 02:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Link?

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/player/29548/dre-kirkpatrick

Stop Rate 44% ranked him 34 in the league. That is about average. The only stat I can find that ranked him even average.

Against the run he gave up 14 yards per play which ranked him 100 which is close to the bottom of the league. Why would you not talk about his run defense.

15 penalties. Thats among the league leaders.

You still haven't even talked about his zero interceptions.For a guy targeted 112 times you would think he would have at least picked off a couple passes.

Even as a percentage of total tackles he still had a high percentage of missed tackles.

So by every standard he was either average or below average

PFF Stats WAY BELOW AVERAGE

Football Outsiders Stop Rate  AVERAGE

Football Outsiders Run Defense   WAY BELOW AVERAGE

Targets  WAY BELOW AVERAGE

Interceptions WAY BELOW AVERAGE

Missed Tackles WAY BELOW AVERAGE

Penalties WAY BELOW AVERAGE

[BengalsRocker]

I just want to know why this thread is talking about last year's stats/rankings when the title clearly states his stock is rising this year?



:threadjack:

[Derrick]

(12-12-2016, 06:25 PM)S led21 Wrote: So I guess we should now take Kirkpatrick off the field to give the younger guys playing time to see what they have, right????

This will automatically happen when Mikey does not re-sign DreK and they have to use an untried (inexperienced) player at CB.

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-14-2016, 01:43 PM)J24 Wrote: We had pretty good pressure last season and he gave us a similar season.

Yeah, 12-4 I would take again in a heartbeat...and we had better pressure, but not what it could be with a stud at RDE to pair with Dunlap and Geno.

[wolverine515151]

(12-14-2016, 07:43 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I just want to know why this thread is talking about last year's stats/rankings when the title clearly states his stock is rising this year?



:threadjack:

Stock is rising indicates a start point and finish point. How would anyone know if hes rising this year if we didn't know how he played last year. Whats he rising from? His dogs asshole? Hes rising compared to what he did last season.

[BengalsRocker]

(12-14-2016, 11:13 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Stock is rising indicates a start point and finish point. How would anyone know if hes rising this year if we didn't know how he played last year. Whats he rising from? His dogs asshole? Hes rising compared to what he did last season.

He has gained value... maybe not to you.

You know in the league.  Where it matters.

If he sucks the remainder of the season and doesn't attract a salary that reflects his play so far this year...  then yeah...  you'd be right.

So far though it looks as if he's going to get paid more coming off this year's stats than last year's.

That is the point.

[wolverine515151]

(12-14-2016, 11:46 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: He has gained value... maybe not to you.

You know in the league.  Where it matters.

If he sucks the remainder of the season and doesn't attract a salary that reflects his play so far this year...  then yeah...  you'd be right.

So far though it looks as if he's going to get paid more coming off this year's stats than last year's.

That is the point.

I said hes better than last season. To make that claim I have to prove he was indeed worse last season. What about that do you not understand. THATS THE MAIN POINT!!!

[fredtoast]

(12-14-2016, 07:30 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: That first drive he was targeted the whole time. He gave up multiple catches. That is why Guenther yanked Kirkpatrick off of brown and put jones on brown. Jones shut him down the whole game.  So you don't blame Kirkpatrick and the coaches do?

The coaches blame Dre for giving up two completions and a penalty.  they do not blame him for the TD where Hall got beaten.

(12-14-2016, 07:30 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: How would you know if teams don't use individual pff stats. You just stomp your feet and squeal that they don't. I guarantee teams use PFF individual stats.

I can show where teams do not pay free agents in line with the PFF individual rankings.  I did it before and will look it up to educate you if you insist.  What info do you have to show that NFL teams put any value at all on the PFF indiividual rankings.

(12-14-2016, 07:30 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: That is a very important statistic. A qb would not target a corner if he had blanket coverage the whole game.  Why would  qb's be throwing that much to a corner if he was giving blanket coverage.  THEY WOULDN'T !!!

Dre was targeted more because because Pacman was a top 3 CB in 2015.  If all the receiveres that Dre covered were open he would not have ranked top 20 in completion percentage allowed.

(12-14-2016, 07:30 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Against the run he gave up 14 yards per play which ranked him 100 which is close to the bottom of the league. Why would you not talk about his run defense.

Because that only takes into account 11 plays for the entire season.

(12-14-2016, 07:30 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Stop Rate 44% ranked him 34 in the league. That is about average. The only stat I can find that ranked him even average. 

Why?  Are you not able to read the other stats on the page you linked?

What about being 32nd is success rate and 18th in yards per target?

[fredtoast]

(12-13-2016, 09:41 AM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Kirkpatrick was garbage last year.  He deserved the hate.

So now we are at the point where apparently every CB ranked lower than 32nd is "garbage".

I say that a guy who ranks among the top 32 CB's in the league is pretty good.  And based on the way NFL teams pay players I'd say they agree with me. 

[WeezyBengal]

(12-14-2016, 07:43 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I just want to know why this thread is talking about last year's stats/rankings when the title clearly states his stock is rising this year?



:threadjack:

Exactly. 

Whether you think Dre was good/ bad last year, the point is is that he has played remarkably better this year. 

Sounds like some people's egos are getting in the way. 

[wolverine515151]

(12-15-2016, 10:37 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The coaches blame Dre for giving up two completions and a penalty.  they do not blame him for the TD where Hall got beaten.



I can show where teams do not pay free agents in line with the PFF individual rankings.  I did it before and will look it up to educate you if you insist.  What info do you have to show that NFL teams put any value at all on the PFF indiividual rankings.



Dre was targeted more because because Pacman was a top 3 CB in 2015.  If all the receiveres that Dre covered were open he would not have ranked top 20 in completion percentage allowed.


Because that only takes into account 11 plays for the entire season.


Why?  Are you not able to read the other stats on the page you linked?

What about being 32nd is success rate and 18th in yards per target?

First prove that teams don't use pff individual stats before you make that claim.You have proven nothing.

The point I made was that they pulled him off of brown for his bad play on that drive. I never said anything about him being pulled for the td. Now your just making things up.

If he was giving blanket coverage they would not have targeted second most in the league. They would have gone to hall's guy or picked on one of the linebackers more often. Jones is not the only option to throw the ball to.

If a QB goes through his progression he has slot wideouts and tight ends to throw the ball to. If he saw Kirkpatrick and Jones with blanket coverage he would simply go to the tight ends, slot wideouts or throw the ball away.

High amount of targets , which might be higher because of pacman jones, still shouldn't be second in the league. Jones probably increased his targets by about 20 . That means if he was giving blanket coverage it would be 70 not 112 .  

Yards per play should be much worse if you include penalties into that. He gave up 118 yards in penalties . Probably more like 300 yards if you count hidden yards in those penalties because when a corner gets a penalty it's an automatic first down. 

This year in new england we had them 3rd and 15 . Kirkpatrick gets holding call 7 yards past line of scrimmage. Automatic first. They drive 70 yards for the score. That's 70 hidden yards. So yes penalties do factor into yards per play.

If these yards are included then his yards per play jumps to probably 11 yards per play and drops him into the bottom of the league in yards per play.

Stop rate also needs to factor in penalties. If a guy gets beat he grabs his guy. That means Kirkpatrick should have 15 more times he was beaten added to his stop rate, which would plummet his stop rate to below average.

I'll use a extreme example to illustrate to a novice like yourself. If a guy stop his guy 2 out of 2 times then he has a 100% stop rate according to football outsiders. What if he gets beaten 10 times during the same game, grabs him, and gets 10 penalties. Do you actually think his stop rate should be 100%? If you do stop watching nfl football. His stop rate is actually 2/12 which is 17%.

So you think corners shouldn't give a crap about run defense. Go tell that to the bengals coaches.

How about his zero interceptions and zero forced fumbles. You think good corners get zero interceptions and zero forced fumbles. Your a joke

Stop rate and success rate have to be very similar stats. That's why I only used stop rate. If you give up 2 catches out of 10 you stopped him 80% of the time.

Like I said before the only stats you can say he was average in is stop rate and yards per play. Both of them drop to below average when penalties are factored in. This means he was actually below average in every category.