Andrew Whitworth

[Hoofhearted]

(12-21-2016, 07:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: It's easy to take this stance, but I am not giving up. I don't see the coaching changes happening for one year's poor performance.  Whit needs to be here if they are going to have a shot.

One year? I'd say they've pretty much under performed since 2012.

[BengalChris]

(12-22-2016, 11:25 AM)Wyche Wrote: Not a damn thing wrong with that brother.

Here's where I am.  The last few drafts haven't produced much, so I'm beginning to wonder about the talent evaluation aspect.  For starters, we let the backbone of the secondary of that vaunted defense walk over pennies, and rolled with Williams.  Between he an Iloka, we have no ball hawk in the secondary.  It was bad judgment to let Nelson leave, and I said as much when it happened.  So far, he's sealed two Raiders victories with INTs, and has two other picks.  How many does the Iloka/Williams combo have?  One more.

I was never keen on Zampese as a QB coach, now he's running the offense, enough said there.

Yes, I'm as pleased as anyone with Andy's grit.....but then again, I always have been.  I knew it would take a few years for him to reach his potential.

My main thing is, Marv will still be here, and with him, I don't think we'll ever win the big one, maybe not even a playoff game.  I've seen enough, too bad Son of Paul apparently hasn't.  Don't even get me started on Piano Man.....

Yeah, it's a frustrating time in Bengaldom.

I'd like them to keep Whit for a number of reasons. First, contracts don't go to head, he's consistently good and the best we have on the OL. He's playing well and don't see why he can't for another year or two, barring injury.

The talent evaluation and recent drafts concerns me as well. It's like they decide during the draft who's going to be the next starter at position X and don't seem to figure in that the guy might not work out. Og playing RT tackle this year was probably in the plans from the day he was drafted and they couldn't change their minds until after it completely cost them the season. The next part of that plan was to move him to LT after a year at RT. Except the plan never accounted for the possibility that he just might suck. So now we're moving on to the next step in the plan of him playing LT. That must have been the plan cause that is what they are doing and they are following the plan without looking at what is actually happening. God al' mighty!

Williams barely played before and suddenly he's replacing the NFL's interception leader from a year ago. Then there's Bodine, traded up in the 4th to get him to be the starter and now we must live with him as the starter cause that was the plan.

No room to adjust much, just like our game plans.

[Hoofhearted]

(12-22-2016, 08:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: They do have SOME strengths...stability, talent evaluation, consistency.  Your assessment of their performance this year is dead on, but one year ago, they had the #2 scoring defense in the NFL.  They had a potent offense whenever AJ and Eifert were on the field together.  

Don't get me wrong, there are things that make me want to stick pins in my Marvin Lewis doll (lack of a 2 minute drill despite 14 years as coach, inability to adapt the game plan during a game, overly conservative) but I have come to the conclusion that there is simply no way that they will let Marv go for one bad year after five good ones.  If he has another similar season next year, I think he is gone.  As much as I feel Zampese was a large part of their failure, he will be granted a second chance as well.  They never give up on rookies after one year and Zamp was, essentially, a rookie as a coordinator. 

So, my hope is that they can make a few fixes and get right back in the hunt next year.  If it doesn't work NEXT year, he's gone.  If it does work next year, then the Bengals are right back in the hunt.  I don't see any one team that is unstoppable and I think at full strength, the Bengals could beat almost any team at any place.  

It killed me to watch Nugent and Ogbuehi struggle as they did this season, but I never saw Dalton quit.  I never saw him get happy feet and become a David Carr or David Klingler...even after getting the ever-loving shit beat out of him the first two weeks.  

My optimism is fueled by the likes of Eifert, AJ, Boyd, Gio all being together next year with (hopefully) a young burner in Core emerging.  The defense needs one key piece on the line (RDE) and I would bet my bile duct that is our first pick.  They also have Hardison and Billings coming back, as well as WJIII.  Dre Kirkpatrick improved to the point that he was probably our best player in the secondary.  Josh Shaw is getting a lot of valuable experience, as is Dennard.  Heck, even Alex Erickson has turned out to be one of the top KO return men in the NFL.

I am incredibly frustrated by the weaknesses of this team, but I still see a ton of positives that will keep me going.  

I stopped losing hope that he will adjust the way he coaches, which is unfortunate. I don't dislike Marv at all, but it absolutely kills me that it seems like every single year it's the same exact problems (as you noted). I have all the hope in the world we have a good enough core to compete, but little to none that Marv and his staff will put them in the correct mind-set and position to maximize their talents. It's a players game of course, but you absolutely need a coaching staff to help steer the ship and keep everyone on the same page. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-22-2016, 11:46 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, it's a frustrating time in Bengaldom.

I'd like them to keep Whit for a number of reasons. First, contracts don't go to head, he's consistently good and the best we have on the OL. He's playing well and don't see why he can't for another year or two, barring injury.

The talent evaluation and recent drafts concerns me as well. It's like they decide during the draft who's going to be the next starter at position X and don't seem to figure in that the guy might not work out. Og playing RT tackle this year was probably in the plans from the day he was drafted and they couldn't change their minds until after it completely cost them the season. The next part of that plan was to move him to LT after a year at RT. Except the plan never accounted for the possibility that he just might suck. So now we're moving on to the next step in the plan of him playing LT. That must have been the plan cause that is what they are doing and they are following the plan without looking at what is actually happening. God al' mighty!

Williams barely played before and suddenly he's replacing the NFL's interception leader from a year ago. Then there's Bodine, traded up in the 4th to get him to be the starter and now we must live with him as the starter cause that was the plan.

No room to adjust much, just like our game plans.

Spot on.  My hope here is, they obviously listened to Billy Joel on these o line picks, it's been reported as such.  Maybe now they'll realize he's not that good?  Long shot, I know.....plus, who'll play Mikey's Christmas Party for free?

[Hoofhearted]

(12-19-2016, 02:38 PM)GreenDragon Wrote: Don't get me wrong, Whitworth is one of my favorite players on the team.

Do you see the Bengals re-signing him for 2017 and beyond?

I say yes if they can move him back to LG. He's 35, so a move like that makes sense to me. But I don't know if they have a replacement ready at LT.

They have Boling at LG. but I would guess he'll be back, they don't have a lot of good depth. I am more curious if they do Zeitler. 

[BengalChris]

(12-22-2016, 11:54 AM)Wyche Wrote: Spot on.  My hope here is, they obviously listened to Billy Joel on these o line picks, it's been reported as such.  Maybe now they'll realize he's not that good?  Long shot, I know.....plus, who'll play Mikey's Christmas Party for free?

[grampahol]

I really hope Ogbuihi is ultimately successful at LT because if he's successful the team has a much better chance at success. Whether he does or not is yet to be seen. It's really tough to judge a player on their first season starting. After all, Hill had a great rookie season, but hasn't been so great since.

To give some slack Ogbuihi didn't exactly draw the worse defenses in the league to get started with. 
As for Witt, I could care less if ANY player gets a ring with another team. If they're the best at their position I want them on MY team and not someone else's team, period. Whether they move him to guard or wherever isn't really the issue with me. His time as a starting LT is drawing towards the end so hopefully there will be someone quite capable of taking over so this is probably the time to find out if Ogbuihi is up to the task or not. I certainly don't have any illusions he'll be better than Witt, but just darn close would be great..

[*SHRacerX*]

(12-22-2016, 11:25 AM)Wyche Wrote: Not a damn thing wrong with that brother.

Here's where I am.  The last few drafts haven't produced much, so I'm beginning to wonder about the talent evaluation aspect.  For starters, we let the backbone of the secondary of that vaunted defense walk over pennies, and rolled with Williams.  Between he an Iloka, we have no ball hawk in the secondary.  It was bad judgment to let Nelson leave, and I said as much when it happened.  So far, he's sealed two Raiders victories with INTs, and has two other picks.  How many does the Iloka/Williams combo have?  One more.

I was never keen on Zampese as a QB coach, now he's running the offense, enough said there.

Yes, I'm as pleased as anyone with Andy's grit.....but then again, I always have been.  I knew it would take a few years for him to reach his potential.

My main thing is, Marv will still be here, and with him, I don't think we'll ever win the big one, maybe not even a playoff game.  I've seen enough, too bad Son of Paul apparently hasn't.  Don't even get me started on Piano Man.....

Agree completely on your assessment of the safety situation.  I am not sure if Josh Shaw was in at nickel CB or if he was filling in for one of the safeties but he sealed the Jet game with a pick of Fitzy, and it was a hell of a play.  I would rather roll with Dennard at Nickel CB and Shaw at Safety with Iloka.  Williams flashed here and there, but overall struggles with the instinctual aspect of the game.  Many have said it before:  he is an ideal in the box safety, but struggles trying to be the center fielder.  

I thought Marv could win one with Hue as his OC, and maybe Zampeze gets more aggressive after self-scouting his performance this offseason.  

Piano man just can't seem to get the offensive line to run block with less than 8 guys in to block and even then, they don't get much.  He should be gone as well.  

[wolverine515151]

A guy I think could be a productive center fielder is derron smith but hasn't got a chance to play. Iloka and williams are both strong safeties better suited to playing close to the line. We've been playing them both as center fielders this season and its like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-22-2016, 04:33 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Agree completely on your assessment of the safety situation.  I am not sure if Josh Shaw was in at nickel CB or if he was filling in for one of the safeties but he sealed the Jet game with a pick of Fitzy, and it was a hell of a play.  I would rather roll with Dennard at Nickel CB and Shaw at Safety with Iloka.  Williams flashed here and there, but overall struggles with the instinctual aspect of the game.  Many have said it before:  he is an ideal in the box safety, but struggles trying to be the center fielder.  

I thought Marv could win one with Hue as his OC, and maybe Zampeze gets more aggressive after self-scouting his performance this offseason.  

Piano man just can't seem to get the offensive line to run block with less than 8 guys in to block and even then, they don't get much.  He should be gone as well.  

Yep, they can lay wood, but coverage seems to be lacking, and being in the right position.   Zampese and Alexander scare the hell out of me.

(12-22-2016, 04:38 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: A guy I think could be a productive  center fielder is derron smith but hasn't got a chance to play.  Iloka and williams are both strong safeties better suited to playing close to the line. We've been playing them both as center fielders this season and its like fitting a square peg into a round hole.

You could be right......and good point about them being better suited against the run, as SHR noted too.

[samhain]

You have to bring Whit back, and as a LT. He's just too damn good at it right now. If he starts to decline, then you can talk about a move to guard, but he's earned the right to play on the outside until he can't.

Also, I don't want to hear a god damned thing about money when it comes to re-signing Whitworth and Zeitler. From all I've read and heard, this team has about 48 million under the cap to put toward re-signing these guys. The only other significant hit looming is Dre, and they've drafted two other players anticipating his potential exit. On top of that, they have Shaw in the mix.

Now, you might say that they drafted to replace Whit as well, but one of the young OTs has to play on the right. The other has demonstrated that he is a massive liability on the field. You just don't know that pertaining to Dennard or Jackson. Don't misunderstand me, I'd like Dre to come back, too. I just can't imagine losing one of two good players on the line and seeing improvement in 2017.

There's zero reason not to bring both Z and Whitworth back. You can feel pretty comfortable guessing that they don't plan to spend any of that 48 mil on significant (a or b level) outside FAs, and there's really nobody else worth a shit to extend in the near future. Hill is expendable. Bodine sucks.

If this team does it's usual offseason dance about not spending money, then every one of the big 3 FAs should be re-signed. 9 mil for Whitworth, 9 or 10 for Zeitler, 11 or 12 for Dre. Plus Whit's 9 mil is likely only a 2-3 year commitment of cash at most. That leaves 17 mil for them to use when they start playing the FA shell game this March. More than enough money, and even more if you cut turds like Rey M.