I feel bad for Andy

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2016, 12:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Give him the benefit of the doubt (I'm sure you blindly will) and say he would have finished 2015 Top 10, it would have been the only time in his 6 year career. 

There is no need to give him the benefit of any doubt.  He finished #2 in the league in passer rating.

The only "blind" people around here are the ones who did not see that dalton was actually BETTER over the final 5 weeks of '13 and '14, so there is no reason to think he would not have been better over the final 5 weeks of '15 also.

It is silly to claim that a QB who finished #2 in the league in passer rating has done "nothing to prove that he is anything more than a serviceable starter".  In half of his 6 seasons he has finished in the top 10 in td%, and he has finished in the top 10 in tds twice, passing yards twice, and lowest interception% twice.

Dalton may not be elite, but he is definitely more than just a "serviceable starter"

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2016, 02:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Andy is top 10 among active players in passer rating. Considering that he never finished higher than 13th in any year you didn't conveniently exclude, that can only mean one thing, right? That other QBs have had less consistency or worse "down years"? I can't think of any other way to explain why Dalton's career passer rating ranks better than his individual years. 

With that said, I'll take the QB who has consistently been good over the scrubs who periodically rise above him. Say Kaepernick, Hoyer, McCown,   Foles, and other one year wonders that can't hang with Dalton on a year to year basis. In short, the QB who ranks 9th among active players and 14th all time in passer rating is not "mid tier".

As for your exclusion of 2016 due to some mythical tumble, Dalton is on a 2 game streak of sub par games. A 60 rating and an 84 rating (which isn't all that bad...nevermind what he's dealing with). Those followed ratings of 130 and 112. So really I'm not sure why you're acting like he's in a late season plunge. 

Just for the sake of discussion though, if you take these last 2 games and add them twice each to make up for the 4 games Dalton missed in 2015, his passer rating would've dropped all the way to 98.0, which would've ranked 8th in the league in 2015. And that's pretty close to a worst case scenario.

No mythical tumble in 2015, just going by historic numbers; as he has never finished a season above 90 in his career. Let's say Andy finishes #1 in passer rating in 2015 and sets a world record for greatest passer rating ever. Then we have one year out of 6 where his rating is above 13. 

Of course you'll take Andy over lots of other QBs; really don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. Talk to Brownshoe, I think he agrees with you. Most everyone else that watches football including experts paid to evaluate it do not. Dude has been a mid-tier QB his whole career, but he has done so consistently; I suppose that's a good thing. 

I get it folks love their QB and think they are better than what they really are. I remember years on the old boards telling folks CP9was not as good as Big Ben.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2016, 03:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: There is no need to give him the benefit of any doubt.  He finished #2 in the league in passer rating.

The only "blind" people around here are the ones who did not see that dalton was actually BETTER over the final 5 weeks of '13 and '14, so there is no reason to think he would not have been better over the final 5 weeks of '15 also.

It is silly to claim that a QB who finished #2 in the league in passer rating has done "nothing to prove that he is anything more than a serviceable starter".  In half of his 6 seasons he has finished in the top 10 in td%, and he has finished in the top 10 in tds twice, passing yards twice, and lowest interception% twice.

Dalton may not be elite, but he is definitely more than just a "serviceable starter"

You consider someone that has finished higher than 13 once in their career as more than a serviceable starter if you want. As I said give him greatest passer rating ever for 2015 and you still have one year out of 6 with a ranking any better than middle of the road.

How many years did you defend CP9?

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2016, 04:30 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course you'll take Andy over lots of other QBs; really don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone. Talk to Brownshoe, I think he agrees with you. Most everyone else that watches football including experts paid to evaluate it do not. Dude has been a mid-tier QB his whole career, but he has done so consistently; I suppose that's a good thing. 

Maybe we do agree.  "Mid tier" is a pretty vague term.  List all of the QBs you consider "top tier" that are clearly better than Dalton.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-26-2016, 01:33 AM)James Brooks Wrote: Andy will make $100 million dollars during his career with the Bengals. Inasmuch as he is a middle tier QB, I feel elated for his good fortune. Wish it was me.

I feel awful for Andy, he's always been a winner, in whatever sport, at whatever level of competition that he has tried.  For his talents to be wasted away by an organization not making winning a Championship a priority, is in itself a tragedy.  Having to deal with a hard-headed, mediocre HC, as well as a revolving door of OCs and position coaches is tough to deal with. 

The only solace we can take is the fact that Andy has done very well for his family financially, and that he and his wife Jordan are model citizens of impeccable character and the embodiment of giving hearts.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2016, 04:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Maybe we do agree.  "Mid tier" is a pretty vague term.  List all of the QBs you consider "top tier" that are clearly better than Dalton.

Ones most would agree on:

Ben
Drew
Tom
Aaron
Russell
Cam
Romo
Ryan
Luck
Stafford


Younger QBs making a case:
Winston
Matrrota
Carr
Prescott
Tannehill

Vets that could compare:
Eli
Rivers
CP9

So giving and taking benefit of the doubt; I'd put Andy 13-17 (middle of the pack)

Now list starting QBs that you think are clearly worse than Andy.

[Socal Bengals fan]

I say 17

[fredtoast]

(12-26-2016, 05:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Ones most would agree on:

Ben
Drew
Tom
Aaron
Russell
Cam
Romo
Ryan
Luck
Stafford


Younger QBs making a case:
Winston
Matrrota
Carr
Prescott
Tannehill

Vets that could compare:
Eli
Rivers
CP9

So giving and taking benefit of the doubt; I'd put Andy 13-17 (middle of the pack)

Now list starting QBs that you think are clearly worse than Andy.

I don't see how you can say Luck, Newton, or Stafford are clearly better than Dalton, and Romo has not been good since '14.  Carr and Mariota deserve as much love as any of those guys, and I'd have Rivers ranked much higher. 

If you think Dalton is no better then 13 then why can't you say which 12 QBs are better?

I put Dalton in the 8-12 tange.  Not elite, but much better than just a "serviceable starter".

[Shake n Blake]

(12-26-2016, 05:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Ones most would agree on:

Ben - yes
Drew - yes
Tom - yes
Aaron - yes
Russell - probably, but close (Wilson has had a much better sitch)
Cam - About the same. Dalton is a better passer. Btw, have you watched him this year?
Romo - a few years ago yeah, not sure anymore 
Ryan - Similar level
Luck - Similar level, although Dalton has been more efficient through their careers 
Stafford - He's pretty much the NFC version of Dalton


Younger QBs making a case:
Winston - Not quite yet
Matrrota - No, but it's still early in his career
Carr - Maybe, but I think the kid is a tad overhyped
Prescott - Way too early to call + look at the team around him
Tannehill - Lol

Vets that could compare:
Eli - Agreed
Rivers - Agreed since Rivers has fallen a notch
CP9 - Not anymore, Palmer is falling off

So giving and taking benefit of the doubt; I'd put Andy 13-17 (middle of the pack)

Now list starting QBs that you think are clearly worse than Andy.

I'll give you Tom, Brees, Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, Ryan and Carr for sure. Anyone else, you can at least make a solid stats backed case that Dalton is as good or better as of now. I have Dalton right around 10th give or take a couple spots.

Like Fred said though...can't you give a definitive list? It shouldn't be difficult if you really think Dalton is mediocre.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2016, 05:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I put Dalton in the 8-12 tange.  Not elite, but much better than just a "serviceable starter".

I did my part and not surprisingly you disagreed; however, you didn't do your part. List 20-24 starting QBs clearly worse than Andy. 

[BengalChris]

(12-25-2016, 11:18 AM)jason Wrote: Looked pretty good didn't he? Rich Gannon kept saying " They gotta get Ogbuehi some help".

(12-25-2016, 06:10 PM)Whatever Wrote: Sadly, he looked better at LT than he has all year at RT.  He only got blown off the LoS every other play.

Pathetic really. I don't care what anyone says, we need to draft a LT in the upcoming draft. Ogbuehi can sit on the bench or get cut, I really don't care which. I don't even see him as a viable backup for either tackle spot. He's just that bad.

I'm sure Paul Alexander is making his excuses and trying to convince one and all in the Bengals' organization that Ogbuehi just needs another off season. But he's been so bad that even if he improved a lot he'd still be a bad left or right tackle.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-26-2016, 04:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I feel awful for Andy, he's always been a winner, in whatever sport, at whatever level of competition that he has tried. For his talents to be wasted away by an organization not making winning a Championship a priority, is in itself a tragedy.  Having to deal with a hard-headed, mediocre HC, as well as a revolving door of OCs and position coaches is tough to deal with.

The only solace we can take is the fact that Andy has done very well for his family financially, and that he and his wife Jordan are model citizens of impeccable character and the embodiment of giving hearts.

This is the real problem.

And I do feel bad for Andy as well as Whit, Carlos, Geno, A.J. hell the whole team !

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Brady would struggle to win here with all the same circumstances. 

[SunsetBengal]

(12-26-2016, 07:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: This is the real problem.

And I do feel bad for Andy as well as Whit, Carlos, Geno, A.J. hell the whole team !

I've said it before and I'll say it again - Brady would struggle to win here with all the same circumstances. 

Yep, it cracks me up when people try to say that Andy is just an "average" QB.  If he were on a well run team, he might have had a Championship or two, by now.

[fortyyearfan]

(12-25-2016, 06:12 PM)Jpoore Wrote: While he did give up 2 sacks, am I the only one who thought he did okay against a VERY good pass rusher in clowney? What I men is that imo he looked better al LT than he ever did at right which isn't saying much but still.

first of all the dude is not a kid,he is a big grown man and has no fight in him.I would love to see his at least knock the guy down that sacked his qb and then ****** help you qb up that use just allowed to get killed.Watch Fisher on the other side,you can see the big difference,he is fired up all game and plays his ass off,he is going to be the starter on that side next year and they should draft ceds replacement now.the dude is not that good and is going to get our qb put on ir.go get the meanest ***** in the college ranks that loves to get after it all game and has a bad ass attitude all game,you know like the steelers whole line has.by the way their line never allows big ben to get sacked,and they are huge dudes with a lot of power.that is the way their organization drafts they always get the best out of who they draft.we got a o-line coach that played this dude out his position all year.unreal.

[fortyyearfan]

(12-26-2016, 04:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I feel awful for Andy, he's always been a winner, in whatever sport, at whatever level of competition that he has tried.  For his talents to be wasted away by an organization not making winning a Championship a priority, is in itself a tragedy.  Having to deal with a hard-headed, mediocre HC, as well as a revolving door of OCs and position coaches is tough to deal with. 

The only solace we can take is the fact that Andy has done very well for his family financially, and that he and his wife Jordan are model citizens of impeccable character and the embodiment of giving hearts.

andy has had 3 different ocs and different o-linemen,different receivers,and rooks to boot,no running game,i do believe that number 32 is a bust.I do not see him being good enough to establish the run,and you just have to have a running attack to win.He has a te that can't stay healthy along with a wide receiver that is hurt a lot aj green.I am not sold on aj being tough enough to last a whole season.He is too frail and gets hurt every season.dalton is probably sittin down right now and thinking and wondering if he is going to stay here with all the shit he has had to endure.someone is going to make an offer for him,as qbs are a premium in the nfl.I do not see a tom brady or a big ben or a arraon Rodgers coming around anytime soon.I mean Andrew luck and rg 111 was supposed to be the answer and they are nothing anymore and with all these stupid new rules it just ruins the game anymore.

[Derrick]

(12-26-2016, 05:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Ones most would agree on:

Ben
Drew
Tom
Aaron
Russell
Cam
Romo
Ryan
Luck
Stafford


Younger QBs making a case:
Winston
Matrrota
Carr
Prescott
Tannehill

Vets that could compare:
Eli
Rivers
CP9

So giving and taking benefit of the doubt; I'd put Andy 13-17 (middle of the pack)

Now list starting QBs that you think are clearly worse than Andy.

Andy doesn't have the owner most of these QBs. They want to win SBs and surround their QB with talent regardless of price tag. Unlike one owner we know. Andy is a victim of the franchise and has done remarkably well in spite of it. Yes, there are games in which I wish he had been better.

[*bfine32*]

(12-26-2016, 07:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yep, it cracks me up when people try to say that Andy is just an "average" QB.  If he were on a well run team, he might have had a Championship or two, by now.

Lots of average QBs might win a championship or 2 on a well run team. As a matter of fact a couple have.

I think it's a matter of semantics that have folks upset. Call it what you want but I currently rank Andy: "middle of the pack", "mid-tier", "serviceable, "average", "solid", good" or whatever term folks want to use you a QB consistently ranking between 13-18 in the league. 

[Socal Bengals fan]

(12-26-2016, 07:05 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Pathetic really. I don't care what anyone says, we need to draft a LT in the upcoming draft. Ogbuehi can sit on the bench or get cut, I really don't care which. I don't even see him as a viable backup for either tackle spot. He's just that bad.

I'm sure Paul Alexander is making his excuses and trying to convince one and all in the Bengals' organization that Ogbuehi just needs another off season. But he's been so bad that even if he improved a lot he'd still be a bad left or right tackle.

Totally agree. This guy is pathetic 

[SunsetBengal]

(12-26-2016, 08:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Lots of average QBs might win a championship or 2 on a well run team. As a matter of fact a couple have.

I think it's a matter of semantics that have folks upset. Call it what you want but I currently rank Andy: "middle of the pack", "mid-tier", "serviceable, "average", "solid", good" or whatever term folks want to use you a QB consistently ranking between 13-18 in the league. 

Fair enough, I see your point.  I'm just here to say that if he were a Steeler, Raven, Patriot, Cowboy, or a member of at least 3-5 other franchises, people would look at him much differently.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Andy Dalton will win a Super Bowl -- with Oakland, Houston, Miami, or eventually New England.