2020 Presidential Election

[BmorePat87]

(02-14-2020, 08:10 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: That is the reason I used the quotation marks. That was their actual, literal phrase.



I'm aware of all of this, and was trying to generate this sort of conversation. Instead it turned into a situation in which they were just denying the actual data in front of them.

A buddy shared an opinion piece from GQ that stated the premise that the "mainstream media keeps attacking Bernie" and it defended that premise by citing two TV pundits and two tweets.

I tried to explain that it's disingenuous for an opinion writer to equate 2 pundits and 2 opinion writers to the mainstream media and that those 4 personalities are being paid to do what she is doing: write their opinion not report unbiased facts.

That wasn't received well, but at least he isn't calling other Democratic candidates "rats" and "snakes" or "mayo" or "cheat".

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2020, 11:12 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: A buddy shared an opinion piece from GQ that stated the premise that the "mainstream media keeps attacking Bernie" and it defended that premise by citing two TV pundits and two tweets.

I tried to explain that it's disingenuous for an opinion writer to equate 2 pundits and 2 opinion writers to the mainstream media and that those 4 personalities are being paid to do what she is doing: write their opinion not report unbiased facts.

That wasn't received well, but at least he isn't calling other Democratic candidates "rats" and "snakes" or "mayo" or "cheat".

Here's the amazing thing to me. Bernie is not even a Democrat, yet his followers (which are very cult-like in their demeanor) are so insufferable that they have taken over the local party.

I had to call this guy an irrational actor, today, because he has continued to attempt his argument. My point with him has been that by calling objective data "fake" he makes any other argument he makes questionable. He could be correct in his discussion of the interpretation of these numbers, and he mostly is, but when you open up with the whole "alternative facts" type of argument you cause your own credibility to be an issue. Why should I, or anyone, engage with someone in a legitimate discussion over these numbers if that is the starting point?

[*michaelsean*]

It looks like Virginia is looking to give their electoral votes to the popular vote winner once enough states have signed up. I think there are quite a few. Something seems wrong about that. Like you are saying your citizens votes don't really count for anything. But I guess they count toward the popular vote. I don't know, but something seems off about it.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/482766-virginia-house-passes-bill-to-award-electoral-votes-to-whoever-wins-the

[BmorePat87]

(02-14-2020, 11:41 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Here's the amazing thing to me. Bernie is not even a Democrat, yet his followers (which are very cult-like in their demeanor) are so insufferable that they have taken over the local party.

I had to call this guy an irrational actor, today, because he has continued to attempt his argument. My point with him has been that by calling objective data "fake" he makes any other argument he makes questionable. He could be correct in his discussion of the interpretation of these numbers, and he mostly is, but when you open up with the whole "alternative facts" type of argument you cause your own credibility to be an issue. Why should I, or anyone, engage with someone in a legitimate discussion over these numbers if that is the starting point?

This is why I don't post in r/Politics. It's 90% Bernie supporters, but the insufferable kind. I can't engage when the starting point is a conspiracy theory. I want to be able to discuss politics not mindlessly worship a candidate and refuse to entertain anything unrelated to them or anything that doesn't praise them.

They dismiss the comparison because of policy, but:

1) attack the media
2) predominantly use fringe and biased media sources
3) promote conspiracy theories
4) engage in personal attacks
5) use insulting names for other candidates


There's a lot of what the Bernie Bros crowd does that mirrors the MAGA crowd. The fact that Bernie is far, far more admirable in his aims doesn't excuse the behavior of the supporters. They're also not winning anyone over with the behavior. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2020, 12:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It looks like Virginia is looking to give their electoral votes to the popular vote winner once enough states have signed up. I think there are quite a few. Something seems wrong about that. Like you are saying your citizens votes don't really count for anything. But I guess they count toward the popular vote. I don't know, but something seems off about it.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/482766-virginia-house-passes-bill-to-award-electoral-votes-to-whoever-wins-the

Here's the Wikipedia on this movement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Popular_Vote_Interstate_Compact

It's a project that started in 2006 and has picked up steam, again, in the wake of Trump winning. Currently, if all legislation pending were passed, there would be enough electoral votes committed to ensure the popular vote winner would win the presidency.

I have been one making the statement that the POTUS is president of the country, not the states. He is not the chief governor or some shit. Because of this, the people should vote for him as a whole country, not the states casting votes based upon their own methods (states could just assign electors per the US Constitution). So I'm in favor of this movement.

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2020, 12:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is why I don't post in r/Politics. It's 90% Bernie supporters, but the insufferable kind. I can't engage when the starting point is a conspiracy theory. I want to be able to discuss politics not mindlessly worship a candidate and refuse to entertain anything unrelated to them or anything that doesn't praise them.

They dismiss the comparison because of policy, but:

1) attack the media
2) predominantly use fringe and biased media sources
3) promote conspiracy theories
4) engage in personal attacks
5) use insulting names for other candidates


There's a lot of what the Bernie Bros crowd does that mirrors the MAGA crowd. The fact that Bernie is far, far more admirable in his aims doesn't excuse the behavior of the supporters. They're also not winning anyone over with the behavior. 

That right there is the biggest thing they need to understand. Policy wise, I'm a Pete man, but I have Bernie and Warren as a close second, tied. If both Warren and Pete dropped out between now and Super Tuesday, I'd probably vote for Biden because of how much the Bernie crowd has turned me off from him.

[Au165]

(02-14-2020, 12:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That right there is the biggest thing they need to understand. Policy wise, I'm a Pete man, but I have Bernie and Warren as a close second, tied. If both Warren and Pete dropped out between now and Super Tuesday, I'd probably vote for Biden because of how much the Bernie crowd has turned me off from him.

That's interesting, you aren't voting for the "crowd" you are voting for the candidate. Where the Bernie crowd differs from the Trump crowd is that the person they are following doesn't actually engage in the same behavior.

[Belsnickel]

(02-14-2020, 01:10 PM)Au165 Wrote: That's interesting, you aren't voting for the "crowd" you are voting for the candidate. Where the Bernie crowd differs from the Trump crowd is that the person they are following doesn't actually engage in the same behavior.

Well, I actually consider Bernie to be problematic in many ways, as well. Honestly, candidate wise, Bernie and Biden are both last on my list.

[BmorePat87]

(02-14-2020, 01:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, I actually consider Bernie to be problematic in many ways, as well. Honestly, candidate wise, Bernie and Biden are both last on my list.

Yea, he needs to be able to talk about candidates race and sex without dismissing it and saying his age presents the same issues as skin color and sex. The fact that gender pay inequality was an issue in his 2016 campaign as well as sexual harassment is also an issue. While he may not engage in the same behaviors as his supporters, he isn't working to stop them from doing it. 

What worries me is I don't think he'd attempt to have a ticket that reflects party unity or representation. Representation matters, so there's no reason why the ticket shouldn't have one candidate of color and a woman on it. Based on past statements, I don't have any confidence that Bernie would attempt to have such a ticket. 

I also worry about Bernie supporters committing to vote blue. Some complain about people not supporting Bernie if he's the candidate, but polling suggests their camp is the only one without widespread commitment to back any Democrat. 

[CKwi88]

(02-14-2020, 01:38 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yea, he needs to be able to talk about candidates race and sex without dismissing it and saying his age presents the same issues as skin color and sex. The fact that gender pay inequality was an issue in his 2016 campaign as well as sexual harassment is also an issue. While he may not engage in the same behaviors as his supporters, he isn't working to stop them from doing it. 

What worries me is I don't think he'd attempt to have a ticket that reflects party unity or representation. Representation matters, so there's no reason why the ticket shouldn't have one candidate of color and a woman on it. Based on past statements, I don't have any confidence that Bernie would attempt to have such a ticket. 

I also worry about Bernie supporters committing to vote blue. Some complain about people not supporting Bernie if he's the candidate, but polling suggests their camp is the only one without widespread commitment to back any Democrat. 

I suppose my hope would be that they see where that attitude landed the country back in 2016 and wont make a similar mistake.

[BmorePat87]

(02-14-2020, 02:54 PM)CKwi88 Wrote: I suppose my hope would be that they see where that attitude landed the country back in 2016 and wont make a similar mistake.

I hope so, and it's not a majority, but there's enough who use purity tests and think even center left is a problem.

[GMDino]

Donald Trump thinks Mike Bloomberg should not be allowed to self finance his campaign.  

What Mini Mike is doing is nothing less than a large scale illegal campaign contribution. He is “spreading” money all over the place, only to have recipients of his cash payments, many former opponents, happily joining or supporting his campaign. Isn’t that called a payoff? .....

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) February 18, 2020

Uhhhh...

Trump in 2020: Bloomberg is illegally self-funding his campaign!

Trump in 2016: "I'm the only one that's self-funding my campaign!" pic.twitter.com/MMYQqkr4Pd

— Robert Maguire (@RobertMaguire_) February 18, 2020

 



And....

New @FEC filing: Donald Trump’s 2020 re-election campaign paid $194,247.57 to Trump family members, properties & businesses in the final quarter of last year alone—steering over $1.8 MILLION in donations from presidential campaign donors to @realDonaldTrump's private interests. pic.twitter.com/ell9EtWkDH

— Anna Massoglia (@annalecta) February 1, 2020

[HarleyDog]

(02-14-2020, 12:29 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This is why I don't post in r/Politics. It's 90% Bernie supporters, but the insufferable kind. I can't engage when the starting point is a conspiracy theory. I want to be able to discuss politics not mindlessly worship a candidate and refuse to entertain anything unrelated to them or anything that doesn't praise them.

They dismiss the comparison because of policy, but:

1) attack the media
2) predominantly use fringe and biased media sources
3) promote conspiracy theories
4) engage in personal attacks
5) use insulting names for other candidates


There's a lot of what the Bernie Bros crowd does that mirrors the MAGA crowd. The fact that Bernie is far, far more admirable in his aims doesn't excuse the behavior of the supporters. They're also not winning anyone over with the behavior. 

I haven't read the entire thread so if what I'm about to ask has already been discussed, I apologize. I have often wondered if the Bernie supporters are trying to vote him in to get rid of college debt and/or relieve the future college debt? Bernie speaks a lot about free, free, free. Yet I don't think he has yet stated how to pay for it? I also feel if he was elected, it would be similar to and independent gaining the seat and neither side would work with him. I know he claims to be democrat, but the democrats dislike him it seems.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Apparently Trump is going to lose no matter who wins the Democrat primary.

Hypothetical general-election matchups:

Biden 52%, Trump 44%
Bloomberg 50%, Trump 43%
Sanders 50%, Trump 46%
Buttigieg 48%, Trump 44%
Klob 48%, Trump 45%

Feb 14-17, RVs, MOE +/- 3.3%

— Mark Murray (@mmurraypolitics) February 18, 2020

I am skeptical about this result. (Not that he can be beaten, but that they all can beat him.)

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-19-2020, 09:41 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I haven't read the entire thread so if what I'm about to ask has already been discussed, I apologize. I have often wondered if the Bernie supporters are trying to vote him in to get rid of college debt and/or relieve the future college debt? Bernie speaks a lot about free, free, free. Yet I don't think he has yet stated how to pay for it? I also feel if he was elected, it would be similar to and independent gaining the seat and neither side would work with him. I know he claims to be democrat, but the democrats dislike him it seems.

Mexico is going to pay.

[HarleyDog]

(02-20-2020, 12:18 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Mexico is going to pay.

?

[Benton]

(02-19-2020, 09:41 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I haven't read the entire thread so if what I'm about to ask has already been discussed, I apologize. I have often wondered if the Bernie supporters are trying to vote him in to get rid of college debt and/or relieve the future college debt? Bernie speaks a lot about free, free, free. Yet I don't think he has yet stated how to pay for it? I also feel if he was elected, it would be similar to and independent gaining the seat and neither side would work with him. I know he claims to be democrat, but the democrats dislike him it seems.

I don't know of it's his stance, but as far as free, end the two decades war in the me and you could pretty much pay for universal healthcare. Close big business loopholes and put a  narrow window on deferments and you can at least pay for everyone to get a two year college or technical degree.

Benton 2020.

[Benton]

(02-19-2020, 10:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Apparently Trump is going to lose no matter who wins the Democrat primary.

Hypothetical general-election matchups:

Biden 52%, Trump 44%
Bloomberg 50%, Trump 43%
Sanders 50%, Trump 46%
Buttigieg 48%, Trump 44%
Klob 48%, Trump 45%

Feb 14-17, RVs, MOE +/- 3.3%

— Mark Murray (@mmurraypolitics) February 18, 2020

I am skeptical about this result. (Not that he can be beaten, but that they all can beat him.)

Trump only won last time because of the electoral college. That could work against him this go round, as he's taken a mallet to a few of his groups that make up big voters in some states. Farmers, for one. Flip a couple of those fly over states and give the usuals to the Dems and he could win the popular but lose the EC. Which would be hilarious.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-20-2020, 04:58 AM)Benton Wrote: Trump only won last time because of the electoral college. That could work against him this go round, as he's taken a mallet to a few of his groups that make up big voters in some states. Farmers, for one. Flip a couple of those fly over states and give the usuals to the Dems and he could win the popular but lose the EC. Which would be hilarious.

Yeah, it would be fairly hilarious because of how Trump hated the EC before he got elected by it and how much he suddenly liked it after. Meanwhile we'd get  to watch Democrats in another Comey situation where they would cheer that they won the election, almost certainly ignoring how they railed against the EC and for a straight popular when they lost it.

There'd be so much flip flopping from both sides it would be like looking at a lake full of fish if the water suddenly vanished.

I'm just hoping that the Democrat who wins the primary will settle down a little bit on the race-to-the-left and then maybe I can vote for them. I am happy going Weld in the primary, but not-Trump is as far as I have gotten with who I will vote for in the general election.

I think depending on who he chooses as his VP, I could see Ohio go back to blue for Biden. I think Bernie is a non-starter for Ohio, and not sure how the rest would fare. Just laughed at the idea that polls say no matter who wins the primary, they win.

- - - - - - - - -
(Also weird to say he "only" won last time because of the electoral college when that's the only method of winning available. Like "only" winning a football game because you scored more points while the other team gained more yards.)

[BmorePat87]

(02-19-2020, 09:41 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I haven't read the entire thread so if what I'm about to ask has already been discussed, I apologize. I have often wondered if the Bernie supporters are trying to vote him in to get rid of college debt and/or relieve the future college debt? Bernie speaks a lot about free, free, free. Yet I don't think he has yet stated how to pay for it? I also feel if he was elected, it would be similar to and independent gaining the seat and neither side would work with him. I know he claims to be democrat, but the democrats dislike him it seems.

I think a number do like that policy. With regards to the how, he has offered some partial funding information. In his defense, though, nearly every politician fails to adequately explain how their plans will be funded. As was noted, think to lines like "Mexico will pay for it". 

That said, my candidate, Pete, was fully funded plans. 


With regards to being able to work with people, yea... even AOC has come out and suggested that Medicare for all is not an immediate solution because it doesn't have the votes. The political capital doesn't exist to get a lot of his ideas going.

That's why I like Pete's healthcare plan.