BmorePa Wrote:It should be noted that the interest group side of unions is separate from the labor side. Union dues are not used for political purposes.
I think one of the silliest things is when people act like they're not interest groups, though. If you're railing against the Pharmaceutical Industry being in politics, you have to rail against this too. Money is money.
Labour unions shouldn't be permitted to donate to any political campaigns. Individuals or parties.
They should just lobby their membership to donate to recommended candidates or parties
Sociopathicsteelerf Wrote:100% incorrect. The other side of the bargaining table is manned by people whose job is to participate in negotiations. They have other duties as well, but none of them are elected officials. I'm glad you brought this up though, it's a very common fallacy among public sector union haters that they're essentially bargaining against themselves. Nothing could be further from the truth. I can tell you our most recent bargaining was full of acrimony, it's probably more contentious than most private sector negotiations.
Aren't these negotiators political appointees?
I know teachers negotiate with the board. Which are elected.
(01-29-2016, 12:32 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Locked in pay scale. So a teacher who has 10 years expierence and has mailed it in and a teacher with 10 years expierence who stays on the cutting edge of their profession while showing progress within the classroom..... They both get paid the same.
There is zero incentive to be the best. Your pay is the same whether you just show up and watch movies or actually have in depth lessons.
That depends on your state. In Kentucky teachers get bonuses tied to testing performance.
So if you phone it in, you (most likely) aren't making your bonus.
I don't care for it though as it leads to most teachers teaching to the test. My son is in gifted classes, he's very smart at math and sciences. But he couldn't tell you where Nebraska is or half the state capitals. He has no understanding of history and only a basic knowledge of the big events. He can conjugate verbs all day long, but he couldn't tell you what iambic pentameter is part of.
(01-29-2016, 12:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes. Clinton and old man bush killed the middle class.
Well, not exactly. They just facilitated it on behalf of their supporters (donors). Big business was tired of paying labor, so they wanted to go where labor is cheaper, so they paid enough politicians to make it happen.
The problem with that is without a middle class, nobody can buy their product.
(01-29-2016, 01:40 PM)Benton Wrote: That depends on your state. In Kentucky teachers get bonuses tied to testing performance.
So if you phone it in, you (most likely) aren't making your bonus.
I don't care for it though as it leads to most teachers teaching to the test. My son is in gifted classes, he's very smart at math and sciences. But he couldn't tell you where Nebraska is or half the state capitals. He has no understanding of history and only a basic knowledge of the big events. He can conjugate verbs all day long, but he couldn't tell you what iambic pentameter is part of.
“History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.”-Thurgood Marshall
(01-29-2016, 12:32 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Locked in pay scale. So a teacher who has 10 years expierence and has mailed it in and a teacher with 10 years expierence who stays on the cutting edge of their profession while showing progress within the classroom..... They both get paid the same.
There is zero incentive to be the best. Your pay is the same whether you just show up and watch movies or actually have in depth lessons.
If your motivation to be the best at what you do is directly proportional to your salary you probably shouldn't be in that line of work. Especially teaching. I think teaching is a calling. The best teachers teach because they love teaching. They don't teach for the salary, they teach despite the salary. They do it because they think it is a valuable service to others and provides meaning to their own life. They see the real value is in how they can change the lives of others for the better. Hopefully, the lives they have helped to improve go on to do the same for others. And so on and so on. They have a quality called "selfless service." It means they care about others more than they care about a pay check and will place the education of others above their own finances.
Since in your own words "there is zero incentive to be the best" you obviously weren't one of those types of teachers.
(01-29-2016, 02:20 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Since in your own words "there is zero incentive to be the best" you obviously weren't one of those types of teachers.
We could also go into studies that have proven that monetary incentives are not as efficient at encouraging higher performance anyway, but that's another discussion.
(01-29-2016, 01:47 PM)Benton Wrote: Well, not exactly. They just facilitated it on behalf of their supporters (donors). Big business was tired of paying labor, so they wanted to go where labor is cheaper, so they paid enough politicians to make it happen.
The problem with that is without a middle class, nobody can buy their product.
The heart of the argument for unions. They protect the Anerican worker like nobody else can or does. Unions are the only fulcrum to corrupt business practices now that our government is basically a corporate subsidiary.
oncemoreuntothejimbree Wrote:If your motivation to be the best at what you do is directly proportional to your salary you probably shouldn't be in that line of work. Especially teaching. I think teaching is a calling. The best teachers teach because they love teaching. They don't teach for the salary, they teach despite the salary. They do it because they think it is a valuable service to others and provides meaning to their own life. They see the real value is in how they can change the lives of others for the better. Hopefully, the lives they have helped to improve go on to do the same for others. And so on and so on. They have a quality called "selfless service." It means they care about others more than they care about a pay check and will place the education of others above their own finances.
Since in your own words "there is zero incentive to be the best" you obviously weren't one of those types of teachers.
Feeling a calling to a profession doesn't mean you shouldn't be properly compensated. Nor does it mean that the lazy teachers get the same pay as the good ones.
You can say that it was frustrating for me to work above and beyond only to watch teachers who mailed it in and should be fired.
Without teachers unions good teachers can market themselves and get their own pay bump and a school district can focus their resources to bring in high talent. The problem now is that with the current set up the resources are piled in administration. Without unions they can freely move district to district now after 13 years you get bumped back on the pay scale.
Bent Wrote:That depends on your state. In Kentucky teachers get bonuses tied to testing performance.
So if you phone it in, you (most likely) aren't making your bonus.
I don't care for it though as it leads to most teachers teaching to the test. My son is in gifted classes, he's very smart at math and sciences. But he couldn't tell you where Nebraska is or half the state capitals. He has no understanding of history and only a basic knowledge of the big events. He can conjugate verbs all day long, but he couldn't tell you what iambic pentameter is part of.
Yeah we get bonus in Florida as well. But it's not enough to make you feel good about the bad 24th year teacher who watches movies 3 days a week make the same as the teacher who comes up with creative lesson plans and finds new ways to challenge their students .
(01-29-2016, 09:27 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You can say that it was frustrating for me to work above and beyond only to watch teachers who mailed it in and should be fired.
You already stated you had zero incentive to do your best. Now you're claiming you went above and beyond.
Well, which is it young feller? Cause if you went above and beyond then you had an incentive. And if you didn't have an incentive then you wouldn't have went above and beyond.
Cue the Raising Arizona bank robbery scene again . . .
(01-29-2016, 09:33 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yeah we get bonus in Florida as well. But it's not enough to make you feel good about the bad 24th year teacher who watches movies 3 days a week make the same as the teacher who comes up with creative lesson plans and finds new ways to challenge their students .
... but that doesn't take away from the good teacher getting an incentive. Isn't that a pro-capitalist model, bonuses to those who achieve?
(01-29-2016, 09:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Once again. Not forced to pay dues for the stock. Buying stock is voluntary and actually pays. Union dues are mandatory.
I'd be fine without having a closed shop as long as the employees not part of the union have to bargain separately with absolutely no reciprocity. After they got eaten alive they'd be scrambling to pay union dues.
(01-29-2016, 12:39 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Labour unions shouldn't be permitted to donate to any political campaigns. Individuals or parties.
They should just lobby their membership to donate to recommended candidates or parties
Just like corporations, there are limits on what they can do in elections. In some states, you cannot use dues for political purposes. Many form PACs and ask their members to donate for that purpose.
Bent Wrote:... but that doesn't take away from the good teacher getting an incentive. Isn't that a pro-capitalist model, bonuses to those who achieve?
Yes but why does the Union help keep the bad teachers employed. All unions do this .... They work their tails off for the worst employees while the best get held back so they can protect the worthless.
I would like to see these changes.
1. No more taking unions dues out before guys are paid. Each member writes a check for dues.
2. Membership voluntary so people can negotiate their own deal.
3. Unions can not do any policital lobbying/campaigning. They can make recommendations on which candidates to donate towards. Then members donate themselves.
4. No federal employee should even have the option to be in a union .
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