48.9% of Unions members work for the Government

[Brownshoe]

(02-01-2016, 02:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Individuals have little to no bargaining leverage when negotiating an employment contract in most situations.  You aren't going to be able to negotiate significant changes or incentive bonuses or benefits to a company's standard offer for the position.  Anyone who thinks differently either hasn't negotiated an individual contract or is naïve.  My particular contract prohibits me from even discussing compensation with other employees which would allow me to use that information in a negotiation.

Interesting... I didn't think that companies were allowed to do that. I was told that stuff like that is a myth. Obviously if you read it in your contract it's different, but if it's not in there.... It might be some BS someone is feeding you.

[Belsnickel]

(02-01-2016, 03:01 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Interesting... I didn't think that companies were allowed to do that. I was told that stuff like that is a myth. Obviously if you read it in your contract it's different, but if it's not in there.... It might be some BS someone is feeding you.

Companies can do that, public agencies can't. Our salaries are public record.

[Brownshoe]

(02-01-2016, 03:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Companies can do that, public agencies can't. Our salaries are public record.

I always heard that it was a myth to scare employees into not telling each other how much they get paid, so employees don't get upset and ask for a raise when Bob is making more than you when he doesn't work as well as you.

I mean if he seen it in his contract obviously he can't say, but if it's just word of mouth by his employer they might be lying.

[Belsnickel]

(02-01-2016, 03:44 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I always heard that it was a myth to scare employees into not telling each other how much they get paid, so employees don't get upset and ask for a raise when Bob is making more than you when he doesn't work as well as you.

I mean if he seen it in his contract obviously he can't say, but if it's just word of mouth by his employer they might be lying.

When I say companies can do that I mean they can require you not to talk about compensation. Not all companies have a written policy about it, but many do.

[Benton]

(02-01-2016, 02:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Individuals have little to no bargaining leverage when negotiating an employment contract in most situations.  You aren't going to be able to negotiate significant changes or incentive bonuses or benefits to a company's standard offer for the position.  Anyone who thinks differently either hasn't negotiated an individual contract or is naïve.  My particular contract prohibits me from even discussing compensation with other employees which would allow me to use that information in a negotiation.

That's what usually cracks me up when people say 'well, if you want a raise, just talk to your boss.'

If you work for a large company, your boss most likely doesn't lose sleep when you leave. If you leave there's already a resume on file to fill your job, who will probably start out making less than you, which helps your boss keep expenses down (and most likely get a bonus). Likewise, your coworkers or other departments are going to be covering your slack until someone gets up to speed, not the guy who signs off on your raise.

So one person saying 'hey, I haven't had a cost of living raise in 5 years, I need more money or I quit' means little to nothing. But an entire department or company is a different story.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-01-2016, 04:45 PM)Benton Wrote: That's what usually cracks me up when people say 'well, if you want a raise, just talk to your boss.'

If you work for a large company, your boss most likely doesn't lose sleep when you leave. If you leave there's already a resume on file to fill your job, who will probably start out making less than you, which helps your boss keep expenses down (and most likely get a bonus). Likewise, your coworkers or other departments are going to be covering your slack until someone gets up to speed, not the guy who signs off on your raise.

So one person saying 'hey, I haven't had a cost of living raise in 5 years, I need more money or I quit' means little to nothing. But an entire department or company is a different story.

If you are just a dude in your profession then I can see why you would want the stability of a union contract.

But the idea isn't to be just a dude and do the minimum. Negotiating your own deal forces you to be at the top of your game or always pushing. This is never a bad thing.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-01-2016, 02:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Individuals have little to no bargaining leverage when negotiating an employment contract in most situations.  You aren't going to be able to negotiate significant changes or incentive bonuses or benefits to a company's standard offer for the position.  Anyone who thinks differently either hasn't negotiated an individual contract or is naïve.  My particular contract prohibits me from even discussing compensation with other employees which would allow me to use that information in a negotiation.

But you can test the waters and see what other places offer you. You don't need to know what Joe coworker is making since the employer is competing with other employees and not themselves .

[StLucieBengal]

(02-01-2016, 03:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: When I say companies can do that I mean they can require you not to talk about compensation. Not all companies have a written policy about it, but many do.

as far as the employer goes .... You are worth whatever someone else is willing to pay for your services.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-02-2016, 09:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: If you are just a dude in your profession then I can see why you would want the stability of a union contract.    

But the idea isn't to be just a dude and do the minimum.   Negotiating your own deal forces you to be at the top of your game or always pushing.    This is never a bad thing.

In a country of 300 million, if you're a one in a million kind of guy there are 300 guys EXACTLY like you. 

[StLucieBengal]

(02-02-2016, 09:33 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: In a country of 300 million, if you're a one in a million kind of guy there are 300 guys EXACTLY like you. 

the point is that you don't need collective bargaining to tell you what your value is to an employer. If you were a ditch digger then yes those jobs are all the same. But jobs where you need specialized training should allow you to set your own value by seeing what you can earn.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-02-2016, 09:16 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: But you can test the waters and see what other places offer you.    You don't need to know what Joe coworker is making since the employer is competing with other employees and not themselves .

That sounds good in theory. Let's check reality. I've worked at my current position since 2005 when I got out of the Army. I've held two jobs since 1991 because I'm reliable. Last year we were purchased by a different parent company. It was more than three months after the deal went through that they let us know on December 15th. Two weeks before our health insurance was due to expire. They showed up to let us know our new health care would more than double. I had t taken a sick day in the decade I worked there, but none of our sick leave would carry over. We didn't have the opportunity to take any unused vacation days before we lost those, too. There was no time to get other offers to negotiate a better offer.  Then there are those pesky non-compete clauses.  Plus the penalties to leave without gI ing 90 days notice.  Then I argued for 5 months to get what they agreed to.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-02-2016, 09:36 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: the point is that you don't need collective bargaining to tell you what your value is to an employer.    If you were a ditch digger then yes those jobs are all the same.      But jobs where you need specialized training should allow you to set your own value by seeing what you can earn.

You were a PE teacher. I don't see a PE teacher having much if any leverage at the bargaining table. Without the unions the good teachers would get even less than what they earn now. 

[StLucieBengal]

(02-02-2016, 10:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You were a PE teacher. I don't see a PE teacher having much if any leverage at the bargaining table. Without the unions the good teachers would get even less than what they earn now. 

On the contrary. please don't let the idea that it's physical education fool you into the idea that it's not worthy. Let's also not forget that most of your coaches and athletic directors are tied to the Physical Education department.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-02-2016, 10:04 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That sounds good in theory. Let's check reality. I've worked at my current position since 2005 when I got out of the Army. I've held two jobs since 1991 because I'm reliable. Last year we were purchased by a different parent company. It was more than three months after the deal went through that they let us know on December 15th. Two weeks before our health insurance was due to expire. They showed up to let us know our new health care would more than double. I had t taken a sick day in the decade I worked there, but none of our sick leave would carry over. We didn't have the opportunity to take any unused vacation days before we lost those, too. There was no time to get other offers to negotiate a better offer.  Then there are those pesky non-compete clauses.  Plus the penalties to leave without gI ing 90 days notice.  Then I argued for 5 months to get what they agreed to.

Why wouldn't you get your offers throughout the year? So when the time comes you know what your worth.

[Benton]

(02-02-2016, 09:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: If you are just a dude in your profession then I can see why you would want the stability of a union contract.

But the idea isn't to be just a dude and do the minimum. Negotiating your own deal forces you to be at the top of your game or always pushing. This is never a bad thing.

Stop buying into the idea we're all special. We're not. Stephen Hawking, Stephen King, Tony Iommi, Freddy Mercury, Mark Twain, Paul Brown, Edgar Allen Poe, Steve Jobs, Michio Kaku, Sean White... those guys are special. And they're literally one in a million. In some cases, one in several million.

The majority of people aren't them. And they aren't going to command top dollars. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't command an industry average, living wage, or a competitive salary. Being one person trying to negotiate an average wage is virtually impossible. Being part of the majority... the average... you should be able to command that.

Everybody isn't special. Likewise, we shouldn't be making it easier for wolves to pick off sheep.

[StLucieBengal]

(02-02-2016, 10:28 PM)Benton Wrote: Stop buying into the idea we're all special. We're not. Stephen Hawking, Stephen King, Tony Iommi, Freddy Mercury, Mark Twain, Paul Brown, Edgar Allen Poe, Steve Jobs, Michio Kaku, Sean White... those guys are special. And they're literally one in a million. In some cases, one in several million.

The majority of people aren't them. And they aren't going to command top dollars. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't command an industry average, living wage, or a competitive salary. Being one person trying to negotiate an average wage is virtually impossible. Being part of the majority... the average... you should be able to command that.

Everybody isn't special. Likewise, we shouldn't be making it easier for wolves to pick off sheep.

But by doing this we allow a system where the unproductive workers dictate the wage to the productive. That is what sucks. Why should they get carried? In education it's even worse.

[BmorePat87]

(02-02-2016, 10:15 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: On the contrary.  please don't let the idea that it's physical education fool you into the idea that it's not worthy.    Let's also not forget that most of your coaches and athletic directors are tied to the Physical Education department.

Depends on the system. Some systems have non PE or non staff members coach. 

I also need to point out that in 2016, there isn't a high demand for PE teachers. There's a high supply and low demand. What would the law of supply and demand tell us about salaries if PE teachers negotiated their own individual salaries?

[Rotobeast]

(02-02-2016, 10:21 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why wouldn't you get your offers throughout the year?  So when the time comes you know what your worth.

Sorry, but that seems like the actions of someone that is completely insecure with themselves.

I suppose browsing on Monster or something to compare qualifications or demands of employers would be prudent though.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-02-2016, 10:21 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Why wouldn't you get your offers throughout the year?  So when the time comes you know what your worth.

1. Why would I get offers throughout the year when they kept everything a secret until the last possible minute?

2. I'm in the top 10% salary wise for my profession. Ninety percent of the jobs pay less. So why would I go out looking for other offers?

3. Did you skip over the part about penalties and non-compete clauses or you aren't familiar with them?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-02-2016, 10:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: But by doing this we allow a system where the unproductive workers dictate the wage to the productive.    That is what sucks.     Why should they get carried?    In education it's even worse.

Complete BS.