Another Slight Against Native American Peoples

[Benton]

(07-27-2015, 04:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: To the victor goes the spoils.  

In today's world it's different because everything has been explored for the most part.   But back then it's was all about colonization.    For us to that today we would need to go into space.    Which I am in favor.  

As far as the Indians go .... You have to defend your lands and if you get taken by force or by diplomacy ..... That's on you.   They took $700 from the Dutch for Manhattan island.   That's their fault.  

Was it right ?   That's debatable ... By today's. Standards ... no.   But by the colonial standard yes it is .... And I would hope we would do the same things if we went into space.    .

So you're on the government side of imminent domain?

Interesting. You're one of the few that thinks it's ok for the government to take your stuff.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 04:55 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So when you watched the movie Independence Day you thought the people of earth should have just surrendered to the superior race and relinquished the planet the conquering force desired?  Ouch.  Will Smiff wouldn't dig that.

If aliens come here and take us over then I guess I will be speaking whatever they speak. It's everyone's personal responsibility to fight for your land. In your movie we did fight and to the victor goes the spoils.

And yes it's good that we had mr enviornment jeff goldblum to save us.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 06:05 PM)Benton Wrote: So you're on the government side of imminent domain?

Interesting. You're one of the few that thinks it's ok for the government to take your stuff.

Not in favor of imminent domain. The Indians were never part of us. We were the invading force and we won. Had the Indians slaughtered us then it would be a different story.

I am not going to apologize for our ancestors for doing what they did .... Colonize and expand. Just as I wouldn't apologize if we went to space and did the same. It's just the cycle of things and the animals inside us.... We are always looking for more and we want what we don't have.....

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 05:03 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is true and the past is, unfortunately, the past.
I disagree (somewhat) with the disservice comment though.
They were forced to a barren land, in which they had little resources to prosper with (apart from mining, which brings us back to the Govt taking the land back and selling for $$$).

I do feel for them. But they also could do what anyone who is conquered does.... And just flee south or north. You can't tell me that there wasnt resources elsewhere.

I realize this sounds really cold. But that's how it's worked with humanity since forever. At least we didn't enslave them and sell them abroad. Like the Africans did ..... I know that's not much of feel good moment. But it could have gotten a whole lot worse unfortunately.

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 08:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I do feel for them.   But they also could do what anyone who is conquered does.... And just flee south or north.    You can't tell me that there wasnt resources elsewhere.    

I realize this sounds really cold.   But that's how it's worked with humanity since forever.    At least we didn't enslave them and sell them abroad.   Like the Africans did .....    I know that's not much of feel good moment.   But it could have gotten a whole lot worse unfortunately.

I'm more than aware how colonialism worked and I'm not expecting you to attempt to defend it.
I'm also not silly enough to waste time on arguing hypotheticals.
Some went north, some went south, some integrated, and a lot tried to make a go of it on desolate land.
It is what it is and we cannot change it.
What we can do is prevent further oppression.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 08:29 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm more than aware how colonialism worked and I'm not expecting you to attempt to defend it.
I'm also not silly enough to waste time on arguing  hypotheticals.
Some went north, some went south, some integrated, and a lot tried to make a go of it on desolate land.
It is what it is and we cannot change it.
What we can do is prevent further oppression.

I agree there.... It's not right they lost their land.

I don't want anyone to think I'm ok with that....

[*bfine32*]

Well at least we are "honoring" them by naming one of our NFL teams Redskins.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2015, 08:05 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I do feel for them.   But they also could do what anyone who is conquered does.... And just flee south or north.    You can't tell me that there wasnt resources elsewhere.    

I realize this sounds really cold.   But that's how it's worked with humanity since forever.    At least we didn't enslave them and sell them abroad.   Like the Africans did .....    I know that's not much of feel good moment.   But it could have gotten a whole lot worse unfortunately.

Does this work on a small scale as well?  If 10 people armed with assault rifles take over your home and property do you say "Oh rats, well they just want it more and I'm out-gunned" and go find a house somewhere else?  Conquerors conquer and you either move on or stay and get killed.

[Benton]

(07-27-2015, 07:56 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not in favor of  imminent domain.   The Indians were never part of us.   We were the invading force and we won.  Had the Indians slaughtered us then it would be a different story.    

I am not going to apologize for our ancestors for doing what they did .... Colonize and expand.    Just as I wouldn't apologize if we went to space and did the same.    It's just the cycle of things and the animals inside us.... We are always looking for more and we want what we don't have.....

Oh its not about ancestors. Its about the here and now. Taking their land, selling it to private businesses.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 08:40 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Does this work on a small scale as well?  If 10 people armed with assault rifles take over your home and property do you say "Oh rats, well they just want it more and I'm out-gunned" and go find a house somewhere else?  Conquerors conquer and you either move on or stay and get killed.

Well depends on scenario. We live in a civilized society here so it wouldn't happen here. But if we were in an uncivilized country then sure. But then we start talking about savages vs civil people and I'm not sure everyone can handle such a discussion without losing their minds.

But I do like your question.

[StLucieBengal]

And btw Nate this happens in Arizona. Farms on the border have panic rooms because mexicans come and take it over as a rest station when they stop.

Part of the reason we need tougher enforcement there.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2015, 08:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well depends on scenario.   We live in a civilized society here so it wouldn't happen here.   But if we were in an uncivilized country then sure.   But then we start talking about savages vs civil people and I'm not sure everyone can handle such a discussion without losing their minds.  

But I do like your question.

So if members of a society that deems itself more civilized than yours takes over you will say "Oh nuts!  You win!"

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 08:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So if members of a society that deems itself more civilized than yours takes over you will say "Oh nuts!  You win!"

Well we have laws here .... But if all of sudden we had no laws. Then yes we would be subjected to defend our lands. Your asking something that just isn't possible here. unless society fell as well as the rule of law.

Look at the baltimore riots.... Rule of law was gone so people invaded someone else's land and took what didn't belong to them. Because those business owners weren't here with a gun to protect their lands they were overrun.

[Devils Advocate]

(07-27-2015, 08:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well depends on scenario.   We live in a civilized society here so it wouldn't happen here.   But if we were in an uncivilized country then sure.   But then we start talking about savages vs civil people and I'm not sure everyone can handle such a discussion without losing their minds.  

But I do like your question.

LTFOL. 

You're omitting lies told to natives by us, and by us I mean the French, Spanish and every other European country that came to North America. We are them. 

But that's not what's so ***** funny. The funny part is you believe natives weren't civilized. Only savages would commit genocide in the manners in which we did. Only savages could lie in manners that we did. Just because they were simple in ways we may not understand doesn't make them less human and because they are human they have 'certain unalienable rights' granted to them through their creator. That we trampled on without regard or remorse. 

White people... amirite?

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(07-27-2015, 01:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Humans are made to be divisive.   Religion has at least kept factions of them together.    Even if relogion didn't exist people would still be fighting.... It would just be over somethong else.  

That's why the utopian fantasy land can never exist.    Humans always want more than they need and they want more than the other humans.

I actually agree with this a lot.  Religion may cause a lot of fighting and division between different members of the human race, but if it didn't exist, there would just be another reason for people to bicker, feud, and murder each other.  I don't know if it's part of human nature to assert your dominance, or just a product of our environment, but it's certainly not only religion that divides us.

With that said, it's still a massive divisive factor among humans, so screw 'em all.  Even if peace is not attainable, it's still worth striving for.

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 08:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well at least we are "honoring" them by naming one of our NFL teams Redskins.

I graduated from a high school with the same sports moniker.

[Beaker]

(07-27-2015, 04:32 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: To a large portion of the Native Americans, ownership of land was a completely foreign concept.
They DID have boundaries established, for coexisting with others (and yes, some fought over that), but they couldn't comprehend the ownership of nature.
Passiveness bit them in the posterior, but to say they should have completely disregarded their beliefs of nature as its own spirit is a bit unreasonable.

Most tribes were not passive at all. They were constantly raiding their neighbors, killing each other and taking slaves. The boundaries that existed between tribes were usually not diplomatically determined, they were determined by how many resources a tribe could defend before they were spread to thin to do so. You are right in the statement that the ownership of land was a foreign concept to them, but the taking and holding of resources was not.

(07-27-2015, 09:05 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: You're omitting lies told to natives by us, and by us I mean the French, Spanish and every other European country that came to North America. We are them. 

But that's not what's so ***** funny. The funny part is you believe natives weren't civilized. Only savages would commit genocide in the manners in which we did. Only savages could lie in manners that we did. Just because they were simple in ways we may not understand doesn't make them less human

Less civilized does not = less human. And again, the indians lied, cheated, stole, murdered, and enslaved each other plenty before the europeans came on the scene. The europeans simply were more technologically advanced, and over time had greater numbers than the native peoples. If the situation would have been reversed, they would have beaten the europeans back into the sea over time. Simply a matter of the more advanced society swallowing up the less advanced society. Has happened that was throughout history.

[Rotobeast]

(07-27-2015, 10:09 PM)Beaker Wrote: Most tribes were not passive at all. They were constantly raiding their neighbors, killing each other and taking slaves. The boundaries that existed between tribes were usually not diplomatically determined, they were determined by how many resources a tribe could defend before they were spread to thin to do so. You are right in the statement that the ownership of land was a foreign concept to them, but the taking and holding of resources was not.



Less civilized does not = less human. And again, the indians lied, cheated, stole, murdered, and enslaved each other plenty before the europeans came on the scene. The europeans simply were more technologically advanced, and over time had greater numbers than the native peoples. If the situation would have been reversed, they would have beaten the europeans back into the sea over time. Simply a matter of the more advanced society swallowing up the less advanced society. Has happened that was throughout history.

And I acknowledged that they fought.
I'll also acknowledge that I worded it all for them to appear a bit more righteous than they were.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-27-2015, 09:05 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: LTFOL. 

You're omitting lies told to natives by us, and by us I mean the French, Spanish and every other European country that came to North America. We are them. 

But that's not what's so ***** funny. The funny part is you believe natives weren't civilized. Only savages would commit genocide in the manners in which we did. Only savages could lie in manners that we did. Just because they were simple in ways we may not understand doesn't make them less human and because they are human they have 'certain unalienable rights' granted to them through their creator. That we trampled on without regard or remorse. 

White people... amirite?

So civilized that they ate other humans?  There were several of these tribes.    Come on man.   They got colonized and lost their lands.    It sucks for them but it happened.  

If it bothers you so much then hand over your land and belongings to the next indian you see.

[Rotobeast]

Forgot to add this earlier.
Only the older guys will recognize it.