Biden now calling for Israel to pause???

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-07-2023, 02:18 PM)pally Wrote: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”-Albert Einstein

it applies to all sides in this conflict.   However, the problem is no one wants the change to come from their side.  It all has to come from the other.

You're being naïve here.  There is no compromise for Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran that doesn't involve the eradication of the state of Israel.  Sadly, there are plenty of religious fanatics on their side as well.  Unless you think eliminating Israel as a state is an acceptable price to pay, and in any way a "compromise", then the status quo is what you're stuck with.  If you disagree I'd love to hear what compromise you think would be sufficient to cause a lasting cessation in hostilities.

[Luvnit2]

(11-06-2023, 06:51 PM)pally Wrote: seems to me that not supporting basic human rights for Palestinians is how new terrorists are made.

Luvnit represents a large segment of people who see the world only in its extremes. In the case of this current conflict... If you don't support Israel 100% you must support terrorism.  If you don't support the actions of the Israeli government you must be anti-semitic.  If you care about what happens to Palestinian children you must not care about Israeli children.  IMO, that is a very unrealistic view of the world and how most people think

I find it interesting you mention basic human rights are allowed by Hamas. They kill gay people, they treat women like it is 1930 versus 2023.

You have no idea what I represent. The fact is Hamas is a terrorist organization who controls the basic human rights of Palestinians. You tell me, would the people of Gaza be better off in the long term if their children were not poisoned with Hamas propaganda teaching them to hate and kill Jews. Would the gays be better off if they could live their life without fear of being thrown off of a roof? Would woman be treated better or worse under Israel rule?

I say yes and why Israel has to take extreme measures (war is an extreme measure) bot only to protect Israel from terrorist cells within Gaza from barbaric killing and hostage taking of INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO ARE ELDERLY, WOMEN CHILDREN AND EVEN BABIES, they need to help the Palestinian people get out of Hamas and terrorist rule.

War is ugly, but I see Israel trying very hard to not kill innocent citizens, I see just the opposite from Hamas as the war rages on. They could care less about killing innocent citizens. They continue to fire home made missiles (haven o idea where they are going) at civilian (not at Israel troops) targets.

I pray Hamas lays down their weapons, I pray then the Israeli government finds a way to work peacefully and humanely with the new leadership of Gaza and the Palestinians.

It is war, giving Hamas and terrorists a pause only emboldens them to regroup and then kill more Israeli fighters. These Israeli fighters are putting their life on the line to stop terror from Hamas. Many have already been killed in action. 1400+ innocent civilians were brutally killed, over 240 still head hostage. Hams is demanding Israel release 6000 Hamas fighters in Israeli prison for the hostages. Bibi balked and is all in to wipe Hamas terrorists off the face of the earth, a good thing for not only the middle east, but the world.

There is humanitarian aid flowing into Gaza once Egypt finally said yes to the aid, but no to refugees. Why is Egypt not allowing Palestinian refugees? Why is Hamas not providing safe shelter for the people they govern? Hamas spend their resources 100% on their killer soldiers, but many like you give Hamas a free pass. The same Hamas that started the war with obviously no plan for Palestinians to be protected once Israel retaliates.

The Hamas attack should have never taken place, anyone excusing it and not placing the blame on Hamas for the humanitarian conditions within Gaza after October 7 are not standing with Israel.

[*pally*]

(11-07-2023, 02:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: You're being naïve here.  There is no compromise for Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran that doesn't involve the eradication of the state of Israel.  Sadly, there are plenty of religious fanatics on their side as well.  Unless you think eliminating Israel as a state is an acceptable price to pay, and in any way a "compromise", then the status quo is what you're stuck with.  If you disagree I'd love to hear what compromise you think would be sufficient to cause a lasting cessation in hostilities.

NO I do not think eliminating Israel is acceptable but nor is keeping the Palestinians confined behind walls with no options.

The Middle East has been at war for 70 years. And unless people start looking at the issue differently than they did 70 years ago it will be going on when my Great grandchildren are 70.

So yeah, it might be naive but it sure as hell isn't going to get solved the way things are right now

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-07-2023, 03:10 PM)pally Wrote: NO I do not think eliminating Israel is acceptable but nor is keeping the Palestinians confined behind walls with no options.

The Middle East has been at war for 70 years. And unless people start looking at the issue differently than they did 70 years ago it will be going on when my Great grandchildren are 70.

So yeah, it might be naive but it sure as hell isn't going to get solved the way things are right now

OK, so what is your viable alternative?

[*pally*]

(11-07-2023, 02:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I find it interesting you mention basic human rights are allowed by Hamas. They kill gay people, they treat women like it is 1930 versus 2023.

You have no idea what I represent. The fact is Hamas is a terrorist organization who controls the basic human rights of Palestinians. You tell me, would the people of Gaza be better off in the long term if their children were not poisoned with Hamas propaganda teaching them to hate and kill Jews. Would the gays be better off if they could live their life without fear of being thrown off of a roof? Would woman be treated better or worse under Israel rule?

I say yes and why Israel has to take extreme measures (war is an extreme measure) bot only to protect Israel from terrorist cells within Gaza from barbaric killing and hostage taking of INNOCENT CIVILIANS WHO ARE ELDERLY, WOMEN CHILDREN AND EVEN BABIES, they need to help the Palestinian people get out of Hamas and terrorist rule.

War is ugly, but I see Israel trying very hard to not kill innocent citizens, I see just the opposite from Hamas as the war rages on. They could care less about killing innocent citizens. They continue to fire home made missiles (haven o idea where they are going) at civilian (not at Israel troops) targets.

I pray Hamas lays down their weapons, I pray then the Israeli government finds a way to work peacefully and humanely with the new leadership of Gaza and the Palestinians.

It is war, giving Hamas and terrorists a pause only emboldens them to regroup and then kill more Israeli fighters. These Israeli fighters are putting their life on the line to stop terror from Hamas. Many have already been killed in action. 1400+ innocent civilians were brutally killed, over 240 still head hostage. Hams is demanding Israel release 6000 Hamas fighters in Israeli prison for the hostages. Bibi balked and is all in to wipe Hamas terrorists off the face of the earth, a good thing for not only the middle east, but the world.

There is humanitarian aid flowing into Gaza once Egypt finally said yes to the aid, but no to refugees. Why is Egypt not allowing Palestinian refugees? Why is Hamas not providing safe shelter for the people they govern? Hamas spend their resources 100% on their killer soldiers, but many like you give Hamas a free pass. The same Hamas that started the war with obviously no plan for Palestinians to be protected once Israel retaliates.

The Hamas attack should have never taken place, anyone excusing it and not placing the blame on Hamas for the humanitarian conditions within Gaza after October 7 are not standing with Israel.

I didn't say that basic human rights are allowed by Hamas.  I said lack of basic human rights is how terrorists are born. 

You were told earlier why Egyptians won't take refugees.  They don't believe Israel will take them back.  Bibi and his party have stated numerous times they want Gaza and the West Bank for Israelis.  They also don't want Hamas to potentially get a stronghold in their country.

I'm sorry, but far too many American conservatives want women treated like it is 1923 not 2023.  And OMG, so they don't want gay people thrown off of buildings but they are ok with denying them everything else...so spare me your platitudes about how Hamas treats women and gays.

[Luvnit2]

An update on humanitarian aid to Gaza. The IDF delivered food, water and medical supplies yesterday to Palestinians in Gaza.

I will say it again, what is Hamas doing for Palestinians to protect them, to meet their humanitarian needs.

To me this shows Israel cares more about Palestinians than Hamas. It should be just the opposite.

[Luvnit2]

(11-07-2023, 03:17 PM)pally Wrote: I didn't say that basic human rights are allowed by Hamas.  I said lack of basic human rights is how terrorists are born. 

You were told earlier why Egyptians won't take refugees.  They don't believe Israel will take them back.  Bibi and his party have stated numerous times they want Gaza and the West Bank for Israelis.  They also don't want Hamas to potentially get a stronghold in their country.

I'm sorry, but far too many American conservatives want women treated like it is 1923 not 2023.  And OMG, so they don't want gay people thrown off of buildings but they are ok with denying them everything else...so spare me your platitudes about how Hamas treats women and gays.

Are you saying I don't care about women and gays?

If so, you are so wrong. I have 3 daughters, had 2 sisters, the greatest Mom a kid could have and now also have 5 granddaughters. Why should anyone dismiss how Hamas and also Palestinians treat women? If you are choosing to side with Hamas and Palestinians, why do you dismiss the basic human rights Hamas has denied women for the decades they have controlled Gaza? You do realize Hamas was voted in by. the Palestinians to govern them a long time ago and Israel has let them run Gaza for almost 20 years now without interruption?


I also love how you dismiss the hatred of gays in Gaza. Why?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-07-2023, 03:17 PM)pally Wrote: I didn't say that basic human rights are allowed by Hamas.  I said lack of basic human rights is how terrorists are born. 

You were told earlier why Egyptians won't take refugees.  They don't believe Israel will take them back.  Bibi and his party have stated numerous times they want Gaza and the West Bank for Israelis.  They also don't want Hamas to potentially get a stronghold in their country.

I'm assuming you would use the underlined to justify the US not taking any refugees as well?

Quote:I'm sorry, but far too many American conservatives want women treated like it is 1923 not 2023.  And OMG, so they don't want gay people thrown off of buildings but they are ok with denying them everything else...so spare me your platitudes about how Hamas treats women and gays.

Talk about false equivalency.  Hamas is light years worse than the most far right conservative in the US.  Pointing that out is fair and trying to equate it to American conservatism is repulsive.

[Dill]

(11-07-2023, 02:18 PM)pally Wrote: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”-Albert Einstein
it applies to all sides in this conflict.   However, the problem is no one wants the change to come from their side.  It all has to come from the other.

You are being naive here. There can be no "compromise" with Israel that involves the restoration of Palestinian rights and homes.

That would mean taking down the barbed wire and barriers, returning homes seized from civilians by state violence, 
and either integrating Palestinians into one comprehensive state (ending Israel's identity as an ethnic state) 
or the creation of two separate states, giving the Palestinian state full autonomy, 
which they would most certainly use to establish a "right of return" for all refugees, 
doubling or tripling their population within 10 years.

Also, one side did risk changing first. Ask the PLO how that turned out. 

Given the massive power imbalance, only one side can really effect change.
Any construction of this conflict which reduces it to a mirror image of intransigence on both sides 
fundamentally misreads its root cause and nature.

[Dill]

(11-08-2023, 01:31 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Are you saying I don't care about women and gays?

If so, you are so wrong. I have 3 daughters, had 2 sisters, the greatest Mom a kid could have and now also have 5 granddaughters. Why should anyone dismiss how Hamas and also Palestinians treat women? If you are choosing to side with Hamas and Palestinians, why do you dismiss the basic human rights Hamas has denied women for the decades they have controlled Gaza? You do realize Hamas was voted in by. the Palestinians to govern them a long time ago and Israel has let them run Gaza for almost 20 years now without interruption?


I also love how you dismiss the hatred of gays in Gaza. Why?

I think Pally had no idea that, after imprisoning the Gazans behind a barrier of barbed wire, the Israelis allowed Hamas to run the place.
She probably did not even know that Netanyahu was insuring that Qatari millions reached Hamas to strengthen it.
People are just unable to see how fair Israel really is to people under its military control.

If I understand you, Luvnit, you are saying that rather than worrying about how Israel imprisons ALL Gazans, denying their civil rights,
we should focus on how Hamas denies women's rights. I wonder whom the women of Gaza see as the greater threat?

[Millhouse]

At this point I do think Israel has achieved an appropriate response, and should start backing off any major actions.

There will never be peace with Islamic Jihadist terrorists unless they are wiped out which would involve deaths of those innocent people that don't support them.

[Luvnit2]

(11-08-2023, 04:27 PM)Millhouse Wrote: At this point I do think Israel has achieved an appropriate response, and should start backing off any major actions.

There will never be peace with Islamic Jihadist terrorists unless they are wiped out which would involve deaths of those innocent people that don't support them.

I guess you missed yesterday the IDF set up protection for 100's of thousands of Palestinians a safe road (Hamas was trying to keep them in northern Israel waving white flags as they passed by Israeli tanks and soldiers.

I will say it one more time, why do the Palestinians in the US and abroad not hold Hamas accountable for the protection and safety of all Palestinians in Gaza?

Why is Hamas not held accountable for not only killing over 1400 innocent civilians, but the manner in which they killed them. Women raped and beheaded. Babies beheaded and burned in ovens and so many inhumane ways to kill a human being?

What has Hamas done for the Palestinians prior to October 7th and after October 7th to protect them? Do they get them out of harms way or strategically place women and children in harms way?

It appears Israel is now far inside Gaza city, it appears they are being as cautious as you can with a terrorist organization embedded among civilians. Hamas are cowards, hiding behind women and children. They are a disgrace, yet many continue to treat them as innocent victims.

I think Israel needs to continue and crush and kill every Hamas fighter unless they lay down their weapons and wave a white flag returning every hostage unharmed. This is a war started by Hamas. It will not end well for them.

[Luvnit2]

(11-08-2023, 03:16 PM)Dill Wrote: I think Pally had no idea that, after imprisoning the Gazans behind a barrier of barbed wire, the Israelis allowed Hamas to run the place.
She probably did not even know that Netanyahu was insuring that Qatari millions reached Hamas to strengthen it.
People are just unable to see how fair Israel really is to people under its military control.

If I understand you, Luvnit, you are saying that rather than worrying about how Israel imprisons ALL Gazans, denying their civil rights,
we should focus on how Hamas denies women's rights. I wonder whom the women of Gaza see as the greater threat?

Well barbed wire did not stop 8 million illegal immigrants from coming into the US, why would it stop Palestinians from staying in Gaza. Was it Israel keeping them in Gaza or was it Hamas?

How has Israel denied anyone's civil rights? Israel does not run Gaza, Hamas runs Gaza. 

[Belsnickel]

(11-08-2023, 04:27 PM)Millhouse Wrote: At this point I do think Israel has achieved an appropriate response, and should start backing off any major actions.

There will never be peace with Islamic Jihadist terrorists unless they are wiped out which would involve deaths of those innocent people that don't support them.

That wouldn't wipe out Islamic jihadists because Israel's actions would create more. Hell, they are creating more.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-08-2023, 08:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: That wouldn't wipe out Islamic jihadists because Israel's actions would create more. Hell, they are creating more.

Israel creates more just by existing.  This point needs to be repeated often.  Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran are never going to stop until Israel doesn't exist or massive change happens in the Islamic world regarding radical Islam.

[Belsnickel]

(11-08-2023, 08:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Israel creates more just by existing.  This point needs to be repeated often.  Hezbollah, Hamas and Iran are never going to stop until Israel doesn't exist or massive change happens in the Islamic world regarding radical Islam.

While this is true, it also diminishes the point that Netanyahu's actions have made it much worse (not just now, but throughout his time in office). Both things are true.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-08-2023, 09:21 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While this is true, it also diminishes the point that Netanyahu's actions have made it much worse (not just now, but throughout his time in office). Both things are true.

He absolutely has, and intentionally so.  But even without him we'd be dealing with this exact same scenario down the road.  I have consistently stated that Israel is not an innocent in this and contribute to the problem.  But when one side's goal is your annihilation there is no response from Israel that would cause a cessation of these hostilities.  Aside from ceasing to exist in both name and populace.

[KillerGoose]

Israel has agreed to daily four hour ceasefires to allow civilians to evacuate.

[Dill]

(11-08-2023, 07:49 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Well barbed wire did not stop 8 million illegal immigrants from coming into the US, why would it stop Palestinians from staying in Gaza. Was it Israel keeping them in Gaza or was it Hamas?

How has Israel denied anyone's civil rights? Israel does not run Gaza, Hamas runs Gaza. 

Israel denied hundreds of thousands their civil rights, beginning in December of 1947, when the Haganah/IDF drove 700,000 Palestinians off their ancestral land with a terror campaign to make room for the state of Israel. That's how a portion of those refugees, and their descendants, came to be imprisoned in the strip. In East Jerusalem and the West Bank, where another remainder live, the dispossession of homes and land continues to this day. 

Imagine if my family drove yours out of your house and penned you up in your garage surrounded by a concrete wall and barbed wire. Wasn't easy. I had to fight off some of your neighbors who tried to come to your aid. Still, I let you do what ever you want in the garage--to a point. If I think you are plotting to break out I can cut your electricity and water, regulate how much food and medicine come in. Would you think I was denying your civil rights?  After all, I don't run the garage--you do. Possibly you would try to break out, or try and get your house back by violence. Just remember that I have a right to defend myself. People in the far away town I originally came from agree. If you were reasonable, though, we might come to a "two-lot solution"--I grant the garage is yours and you can even use the drive way to open a business there. But you do strike me as a trouble maker, so I'll still retain final say on what comes in and out of your lot. You also strike me as the religious type who thinks he has a god-given right to take back what was formerly his home, so probably there is no resolution here. Religious conflicts are just like that. I stretch out my hand with a peace offering and you reject my compromise, so this is how we continue into the future, with no resolution.  But that's your choice. 

To the second bolded--Here is how Human Rights Watch described the strip last year:   https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
(Gaza) – Israel’s sweeping restrictions on leaving Gaza deprive its more than two million residents of opportunities to better their lives, Human Rights Watch said today on the fifteenth anniversary of the 2007 closure. The closure has devastated the economy in Gaza, contributed to fragmentation of the Palestinian people, and forms part of Israeli authorities’ crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians.

Israel’s closure policy blocks most Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing professionals, artists, athletes, students, and others from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, including unnecessary delays and mistreatment of travelers, have exacerbated the closure’s harm to human rights.

To the first bolded--I showed you a picture of the wall before, on another thread. Here is another. There are remote-controlled machine gun turrets every two kilometers. In many places there is a double wall. It was not built by Hamas, and the machine guns are operated by Israelis, so I would say it was the Israelis keeping Gazans in there.

[Luvnit2]

(11-09-2023, 09:21 PM)Dill Wrote: Israel denied hundreds of thousands their civil rights, beginning in December of 1947, when the Haganah/IDF drove 700,000 Palestinians off their ancestral land with a terror campaign to make room for the state of Israel. That's how a portion of those refugees, and their descendants, came to be imprisoned in the strip. In East Jerusalem and the West Bank, where another remainder live, the dispossession of homes and land continues to this day. 

Imagine if my family drove yours out of your house and penned you up in your garage surrounded by a concrete wall and barbed wire. Wasn't easy. I had to fight off some of your neighbors who tried to come to your aid. Still, I let you do what ever you want in the garage--to a point. If I think you are plotting to break out I can cut your electricity and water, regulate how much food and medicine come in. Would you think I was denying your civil rights?  After all, I don't run the garage--you do. Possibly you would try to break out, or try and get your house back by violence. Just remember that I have a right to defend myself. People in the far away town I originally came from agree. If you were reasonable, though, we might come to a "two-lot solution"--I grant the garage is yours and you can even use the drive way to open a business there. But you do strike me as a trouble maker, so I'll still retain final say on what comes in and out of your lot. You also strike me as the religious type who thinks he has a god-given right to take back what was formerly his home, so probably there is no resolution here. Religious conflicts are just like that. I stretch out my hand with a peace offering and you reject my compromise, so this is how we continue into the future, with no resolution.  But that's your choice. 

To the second bolded--Here is how Human Rights Watch described the strip last year:   https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/06/14/gaza-israels-open-air-prison-15
(Gaza) – Israel’s sweeping restrictions on leaving Gaza deprive its more than two million residents of opportunities to better their lives, Human Rights Watch said today on the fifteenth anniversary of the 2007 closure. The closure has devastated the economy in Gaza, contributed to fragmentation of the Palestinian people, and forms part of Israeli authorities’ crimes against humanity of apartheid and persecution against millions of Palestinians.

Israel’s closure policy blocks most Gaza residents from going to the West Bank, preventing professionals, artists, athletes, students, and others from pursuing opportunities within Palestine and from traveling abroad via Israel, restricting their rights to work and an education. Restrictive Egyptian policies at its Rafah crossing with Gaza, including unnecessary delays and mistreatment of travelers, have exacerbated the closure’s harm to human rights.

To the first bolded--I showed you a picture of the wall before, on another thread. Here is another. There are remote-controlled machine gun turrets every two kilometers. In many places there is a double wall. It was not built by Hamas, and the machine guns are operated by Israelis, so I would say it was the Israelis keeping Gazans in there.

I will ask you one more time, what has Hamas done and doing now to protect Palestinians?

Israel is giving them ways to get away from Hamas and head south 4 hours a day (short pause daily). It appears Hamas has fired almost 10,000 rockets into Israel with many others misfiring and killing Palestinians. So, today we still have Hamas trying to kill innocent civilians in both Israel and Gaza (human shields)
while Israel is doing all in their power during a declared war to not harm innocent civilians.

It amazes me many like you in the world are blind to it.