Biden now calling for Israel to pause???

[GMDino]

(11-18-2023, 05:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, it's already been estimated that one-third of the 11,000 dead in Gaza were from the areas Israel told Palestinians to flee to.

This is my problem with this whole thing. I have zero problem with Israel actually invading Gaza to root out Hamas after October 7th. In fact, I think that they had every right to do so. What I have a problem with is that they tell civilians to flee south to avoid the violence, and then they bomb them in the south. I have a problem with some of the justifications of air strikes on refugee camps. I have a problem with the evidence used to justify the attack on the hospital (a bunch of metal weapons being stored near a giant magnet doesn't seem all that likely). I have a problem with the man who elevated and propped up Hamas all these years now using their existence as a justification for slaughtering thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and who partners with people in government calling for legitimate ethnic cleansing.

The world tends to run on "proportional responses." Israel's response has not been proportional and in all seriousness is going to do more harm to their existence in the years to come than anything. I mean this in all sincerity, they will probably have to kill every Palestinian at this point because they are going to make terrorists out of those that remain with their actions.

War is hell.

And "an eye for an eye" only results in blindness.

None of this will end well, but wars seldom do.

[*pally*]

Tentative cease fire agreement brokered by Biden. It will last for at least 5 days and there will be some hostages released

https://wapo.st/47XGmLF

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-18-2023, 11:13 PM)pally Wrote: Tentative cease fire agreement brokered by Biden.  It will last for at least 5 days and there will be some hostages released

https://wapo.st/47XGmLF

Or not.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/19/washington-post-story-hamas-hostage-deal-00127955


The Washington Post backed away from its claim Saturday evening that Israel and Hamas had reached a tentative deal that would free at least 50 hostages in exchange for a five day pause in fighting on both sides, after a U.S. National Security Council spokesperson tempered the claim online.


If there is an eventual ceasefire I highly doubt Biden will have had anything to do with it.

[Dill]

(11-18-2023, 05:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, it's already been estimated that one-third of the 11,000 dead in Gaza were from the areas Israel told Palestinians to flee to.

This is my problem with this whole thing. I have zero problem with Israel actually invading Gaza to root out Hamas after October 7th. In fact, I think that they had every right to do so. What I have a problem with is that they tell civilians to flee south to avoid the violence, and then they bomb them in the south. I have a problem with some of the justifications of air strikes on refugee camps. I have a problem with the evidence used to justify the attack on the hospital (a bunch of metal weapons being stored near a giant magnet doesn't seem all that likely). I have a problem with the man who elevated and propped up Hamas all these years now using their existence as a justification for slaughtering thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians and who partners with people in government calling for legitimate ethnic cleansing.

The world tends to run on "proportional responses." Israel's response has not been proportional and in all seriousness is going to do more harm to their existence in the years to come than anything. I mean this in all sincerity, they will probably have to kill every Palestinian at this point because they are going to make terrorists out of those that remain with their actions.

Well said. 

As you know, "proportionality" as a concept is supposed to govern the Jus in Bello aspect of current "Just War Doctrine"; that involves distinguishing between civilians and combatants as well as between levels of applied force. "Minimum force" required to neutralize a military target is the standard.

The weakness of the doctrine is that the aggressor generally decides what is an "acceptable" proportion of civilian to military casualties and what is an acceptable proportion of force.  The problem is exacerbated in asymmetrical warfare covered by modern media, when dropping an entire apt. complex down on 12 families may not have the "proportional" impact of one torture/beheading. 

In this case, the only real restraint I see on Israeli actions is world/US opinion. But the anger of some in the civilian and military command may be so great they do not care. That's what I think we are seeing. The result is, in effect, collective punishment, mitigated/enabled by the claim Hamas uses civilians as human shields. 

To people in the region, arguments like "Hamas uses civilians as human shields" is just Orwellian doublespeak coming from the IDF, but at least over the short term, it's decisive for US and European observers, who still see Israel as "very concerned" to avoid civilian casualties--"unlike Hamas."  But over the long term, the moral high ground currently attributed to the people who created Gaza as an open air prison will erode. 

I don't think Israel will have to kill every Palestinian though. My most optimistic view is that when Netanyahu is finally out, Labour and the left can regain control of the Knesset and work seriously with the UN, US and regional powers to end the occupation A similar response, if encouraged with aid, can happen on the Palestinian side if they see a genuine opening to POLITICAL EQUALITY and peace. Continuing with Hamas invites genocide.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2023, 11:54 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Or not.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/11/19/washington-post-story-hamas-hostage-deal-00127955


The Washington Post backed away from its claim Saturday evening that Israel and Hamas had reached a tentative deal that would free at least 50 hostages in exchange for a five day pause in fighting on both sides, after a U.S. National Security Council spokesperson tempered the claim online.


If there is an eventual ceasefire I highly doubt Biden will have had anything to do with it.

Why?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-20-2023, 02:21 PM)GMDino Wrote: Why?

Because his mental faculties are clearly in very poor shape.  It's ok to admit it.  I honestly can't believe anyone who has watched this man the past few months has not realized it.

[jmccracky]

(11-20-2023, 06:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because his mental faculties are clearly in very poor shape.  It's ok to admit it.  I honestly can't believe anyone who has watched this man the past few months has not realized it.

But didn't Biden recently have a good hangout sesh with Xi, and Bibi before that? I definitely agree that he's in decline and it's obvious. I also get that he stutters, and always has, but not anywhere close to what we've seen the past couple of years. So, I'm not disagreeing, but saying he can have his moments. The Xi talks went well, it seems. Like, I can't deny that he is in decline, but I also can't deny, that he has had his good moments. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-20-2023, 06:49 PM)jmccracky Wrote: But didn't Biden recently have a good hangout sesh with Xi, and Bibi before that? I definitely agree that he's in decline and it's obvious. I also get that he stutters, and always has, but not anywhere close to what we've seen the past couple of years. So, I'm not disagreeing, but saying he can have his moments. The Xi talks went well, it seems. Like, I can't deny that he is in decline, but I also can't deny, that he has had his good moments. 

Did you see some of the "lowlights" of the meeting with Xi?  Did you see Blinken literally die inside several times?  Did you see Blinken literally shout at reporters to leave the room during the talks with Xi?  The dude is largely gone now.  I have sadly had to go through this with both parents and Biden is not in good shape.  I give you credit for at least admitting there's an issue, but consider this.  Do you want the most powerful person in the world to be someone who has "his good moments?"

I will be very surprised if the Dems don't pull a Texas switch with Biden sometime next year.  He'll have a "health crisis" or something similar.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2023, 06:22 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Because his mental faculties are clearly in very poor shape.  It's ok to admit it.  I honestly can't believe anyone who has watched this man the past few months has not realized it.

Oh, so because you are diagnosing him with all your medical expertise.  I thought you had a real reason Biden and the WH wouldn't be involved other than partisan crap.

Never mind.

[Luvnit2]

(11-18-2023, 11:13 PM)pally Wrote: Tentative cease fire agreement brokered by Biden.  It will last for at least 5 days and there will be some hostages released

https://wapo.st/47XGmLF

WAPO backtracked, they lied and Biden and US had no input in hostage negotiations.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-20-2023, 07:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, so because you are diagnosing him with all your medical expertise.  I thought you had a real reason Biden and the WH wouldn't be involved other than partisan crap.

Never mind.

Noticing the dude is not all there, or even close to it, is hardly partisan.  I could argue that denying it certainly is, because it's rather obvious.  Are you really telling me you don't see it?  Not at all?

[Luvnit2]

(11-20-2023, 07:59 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh, so because you are diagnosing him with all your medical expertise.  I thought you had a real reason Biden and the WH wouldn't be involved other than partisan crap.

Never mind.

I now see why you also see no evidence the Biden family got rich from foreign countries while providing no sale of goods or any business. You are blind with partisanship.

I am rooting for Joe to carry on, but I have said. for months, no way the Democrats keep him if his polling continues a decline. The good news is he may be at his floor, maybe.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2023, 08:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Noticing the dude is not all there, or even close to it, is hardly partisan.  I could argue that denying it certainly is, because it's rather obvious.  Are you really telling me you don't see it?  Not at all?

I thought you were against diagnosing from afar?

Anyway what *I* see isn't the question.  I thought you might have some policy or fact based reason versus your own prejudice.

[GMDino]

(11-20-2023, 08:25 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I now see why you also see no evidence the Biden family got rich from foreign countries while providing no sale of goods or any business. You are blind with partisanship.

I am rooting for Joe to carry on, but I have said. for months, no way the Democrats keep him if his polling continues a decline. The good news is he may be at his floor, maybe.

I didn't say anything other than SSF didn't have a legitimate reason for his suspicion but rather than he was basing off his self-diagnosis of Biden.

I'd get into the "evidence" you believe but you haven't seen it in any of the 100 posts you've made so why bother now?

[*pally*]

The Israeli government is voting today on a hostage deal/temporary cease-fire today.

The first vote is the Defense Council
second is the National Security Council
and finally the Knesset

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(11-21-2023, 10:25 AM)GMDino Wrote: I thought you were against diagnosing from afar?

Anyway what *I* see isn't the question.  I thought you might have some policy or fact based reason versus your own prejudice.

Hold up, you can't accuse me of "prejudice" when you won't even admit if you see it too.  It's not about diagnosing anyone from afar, it's about what your eyes see.  This isn't a complicated bit of psychoanalysis, it's recognizing the signs of an extremely common ailment suffered by the elderly.  I'd be willing to bet every single poster here has dealt with this with at least a grandparent.  So, be honest with yourself and us, do you see signs of significantly decreased mental capacity in Joe Biden?  

[masonbengals fan]

Don't believe you're lying eyes should be the theme song of this administration.

[GMDino]

(11-21-2023, 12:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Hold up, you can't accuse me of "prejudice" when you won't even admit if you see it too.  It's not about diagnosing anyone from afar, it's about what your eyes see.  This isn't a complicated bit of psychoanalysis, it's recognizing the signs of an extremely common ailment suffered by the elderly.  I'd be willing to bet every single poster here has dealt with this with at least a grandparent.  So, be honest with yourself and us, do you see signs of significantly decreased mental capacity in Joe Biden?  

What I *see* doesn't matter.  I'm not diagnosing him...you are.

I asked why you said what you said and you answered.

You stood by it so good for you.

And yes, I've dealt with it with my wife's grandmother.  It looked nothing like what Biden is doing.   


I've seen it with friend's parents.  Again, nothing like Biden.

But that's *my* personal experience. 

If you think you know better then good for you.

But again I just thought maybe, because you care very deeply about the situation in Israel, you had a policy or legitimate reason and not just your own hunches.

[GMDino]

(11-21-2023, 12:30 PM)masonbengals fan Wrote: Don't believe you're lying eyes should be the theme song of this administration.

What are they lying about in this case?

[Luvnit2]

(11-21-2023, 10:52 AM)pally Wrote: The Israeli government is voting today on a hostage deal/temporary cease-fire today.

The first vote is the Defense Council
second is the National Security Council
and finally the Knesset

Just for clarification, Biden and US had no decision making power on a cease-fire.

I do hope the hostages are all released, anything less is just Hamas getting what they want, the ability to regroup and use other hostages as human shields. I also Hamas allows Israel to have the UN or Red Cross see every hostage and take pictures of them showing proof of life.