Bond slashed to 175 million while Trump appeals

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 11:29 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: You're still focusing on sex when I am discussing gender. They are two different things.


The infrastructure required for the single-stall bathrooms would be prohibitive; that's why I don't offer it up as a solution. Personally, I'd be okay with just one giant bathroom for everyone to use and stalls that didn't have gaps in them which would be a more economical solution, but people don't like that. Truthfully, though, there is no "middle ground" solution that will resolve these issues. There are always going to be people unhappy and demanding their side of things. Don't pretend that it's just a liberal thing when "conservatives" are out here doing the same. Honestly, most teens and kids probably wouldn't care if it wasn't learned behavior to care from the adults around them. If we instead taught them that you just mind your own business, some people are different, and what they do in the stall doesn't concern you then it wouldn't be an issue at all. But that would require actually working on our societal values rather than trying to utilize infrastructure to cover up our inadequacies as a society when it comes to treating each other with respect and dignity.

Just my two cents.

I understand the strain it will cause, but if the gov is so adamant about it, then it's not a problem and many place could use an bathroom upgrade (isn't it a tax write-off as well?) Gov could allow an early year write-off based on an estimate then provide the actuals once it's done. 

there's always a way, just have to work those political brain cells.

An open bathroom with secure stalls would be fine to me, but i don't think US society is ready for that and forcing it will just delay the process. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:16 PM)GMDino Wrote: Adults make a fuss because they are afraid and want their kids to be too.

It's why my kid doesn't care about any of it but another kid he graduated with sounds just like his dad talking about "queers" and such.

And I didn't tell my kids what to think.  I just told them to treat everyone as equally as they could.

To your first line: This isn't even a logical response and your wording is to belittle the seriousness of the issue with parents. Parents don't want to be at a theme park or concert and have a cross-dresser walk up to a urinal next to their son, or into a women's restroom where their daughters are. I don't understand why that is so bad for people to accept. 

To your last line: Nobody cares how your parent. The problem arises when you tell others how to parent. 

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 12:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: To your first line: This isn't even a logical response and your wording is to belittle the seriousness of the issue with parents. Parents don't want to be at a theme park or concert and have a cross-dresser walk up to a urinal next to their son, or into a women's restroom where their daughters are. I don't understand why that is so bad for people to accept. 

Good thing we aren't talking about "cross-dressers." Now, if you're talking about a trans woman, are you just expecting them to not use a public restroom since you don't want them in either bathroom, it seems?

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 12:24 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I understand the strain it will cause, but if the gov is so adamant about it, then it's not a problem and many place could use an bathroom upgrade (isn't it a tax write-off as well?) Gov could allow an early year write-off based on an estimate then provide the actuals once it's done. 

there's always a way, just have to work those political brain cells.

An open bathroom with secure stalls would be fine to me, but i don't think US society is ready for that and forcing it will just delay the process. 

So, you want your taxes to go up to pay for all this retrofitting?

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 12:33 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: To your first line: This isn't even a logical response and your wording is to belittle the seriousness of the issue with parents. Parents don't want to be at a theme park or concert and have a cross-dresser walk up to a urinal next to their son, or into a women's restroom where their daughters are. I don't understand why that is so bad for people to accept. 

To your last line: Nobody cares how your parent. The problem arises when you tell others how to parent. 

Honestly...I didn't care.  I'm in the bathroom to relieve myself no check the junk of each patron.  My son feels the same.

If you're afraid that a "Cross dresser" is in the bathroom that's your fear.  I'd probably be more worried about a priest being in there.

I care how other people parent when they raise bigots and people full of hate.  So I suggest others not do that.  I can't force anyone to do anything or we wouldn't have these conversations. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 12:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good thing we aren't talking about "cross-dressers." Now, if you're talking about a trans woman, are you just expecting them to not use a public restroom since you don't want them in either bathroom, it seems?

It's logical and applies. 

As a parent, i have no idea who is (could be strait, cross-dresser, non-binary, trans or any other not named gender) standing next to my child nor the intent. If someone is acting weird in any way or my child seems distressed, they will get my attention and i will intervene on my child's behalf. 

Just make single use uni-sex bathrooms and no one has to deal with this. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Good thing we aren't talking about "cross-dressers." Now, if you're talking about a trans woman, are you just expecting them to not use a public restroom since you don't want them in either bathroom, it seems?

Is cross-dresser an offensive term? If so, it wasn't meant offensive because it's not the same as a trans. But seriously, that doesn't really matter to my point. As I stated in another post, why not have a men's, women's, and Unisex bathroom? Everyones happy. Why does one have to be forced by a belief or lifestyle of another?

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 12:56 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: It's logical and applies. 

As a parent, i have no idea who is (could be strait, cross-dresser, non-binary, trans or any other not named gender) standing next to my child nor the intent. If someone is acting weird in any way or my child seems distressed, they will get my attention and i will intervene on my child's behalf. 

Just make single use uni-sex bathrooms and no one has to deal with this. 

Reminds of the time I walked in on two ladies in the unisex bathroom because they forgot to lock the door.  Luckily I realized quickly and shut it again and they just laughed.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 12:46 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, you want your taxes to go up to pay for all this retrofitting?

Why not? I think this would be helping Society along the path of advancement? Wouldn't that be worth it in the long game? 

Anyways, this is a SOCIETY Issue, change doesn't happen over night, Take baby steps, other wise we will end up with another Roe Vs Wade 50 year flip flopping wasting more time and MONEY. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 12:49 PM)GMDino Wrote: Honestly...I didn't care.  I'm in the bathroom to relieve myself no check the junk of each patron.  My son feels the same.

Your thinking only of yourself and not the child. 

Quote:If you're afraid that a "Cross dresser" is in the bathroom that's your fear.  I'd probably be more worried about a priest being in there. 

I don't fear cross-dressers nor do I fear priests. However, I do want to have full control over who my child is in a bathroom with.

Quote:I care how other people parent when they raise bigots and people full of hate.  So I suggest others not do that.  I can't force anyone to do anything or we wouldn't have these conversations.  

The bigger concern would be "What makes people full of hate?" Let's try not to force people to hate one another by forcing them to abide by someone else's standards over their own. Acceptance can never be forced.

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 01:09 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Your thinking only of yourself and not the child. 


I don't fear cross-dressers nor do I fear priests. However, I do want to have full control over who my child is in a bathroom with.


The bigger concern would be "What makes people full of hate?" Let's try not to force people to hate one another by forcing them to abide by someone else's standards over their own. Acceptance can never be forced.

Nope.  I raised my child to be aware of their surroundings.  I didn't go in the ladies room with my daughter, so if she was just me she had to be prepared on her own.  There's a difference between being aware and being afraid.

I thought we supposed be against helicopter parenting these days?  Do you know who your child is with at all times?  Every time they are in public?

See where I disagree is the simple thing of "not judging everyone different than you" would take care of that.  But it's only seen as being "forced" when it is a minority asking for acceptance, or at least to be left alone.  When it's the majority demanding the minority not exist in public it's just fine it seems.

I thought this country had been through this a few times.  But I guess we'll see who is on the right side of history again, eventually.

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 01:09 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I don't fear cross-dressers nor do I fear priests. However, I do want to have full control over who my child is in a bathroom with.

I think this is where my rub with all of this is. If a trans woman goes into the women's restroom, they are going to go to the stall, do their business, (hopefully) wash their hands, and leave. Same for a trans man. Why is this any different for them than a cis-gendered person? Trans people have almost certainly been using the same bathroom as you and your kids your whole lives without any issues.

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 01:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why not? I think this would be helping Society along the path of advancement? Wouldn't that be worth it in the long game? 

Anyways, this is a SOCIETY Issue, change doesn't happen over night, Take baby steps, other wise we will end up with another Roe Vs Wade 50 year flip flopping wasting more time and MONEY. 

Would government forcing privately owned businesses to change all their bathrooms be "big government" getting involved in their business?

Also, how many bathrooms per business/building?  There was a hubbub about the number of ladies restrooms in one of the arenas/stadiums in Pittsburgh as I recall.  Being that women need stalls, men just needed urinals.

Who will run this program and who will we tax?  Will it be a business tax since they are being force to remodel or just trans people since they wlll "benefit" from the change?

[GMDino]

(04-09-2024, 01:19 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is where my rub with all of this is. If a trans woman goes into the women's restroom, they are going to go to the stall, do their business, (hopefully) wash their hands, and leave. Same for a trans man. Why is this any different for them than a cis-gendered person? Trans people have almost certainly been using the same bathroom as you and your kids your whole lives without any issues.

It's like my fear of flying.  I understand how a lane works.  I still hate getting in one.

I think most people realize that what they are afraid of, something bad happening, probably not only won't happen but that they've been in the situation lots of times and never had a problem.  But the thought that it MIGHT is enough to make them fearful.

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 12:56 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Is cross-dresser an offensive term? If so, it wasn't meant offensive because it's not the same as a trans. But seriously, that doesn't really matter to my point. As I stated in another post, why not have a men's, women's, and Unisex bathroom? Everyones happy. Why does one have to be forced by a belief or lifestyle of another?

Cross-dresser is an outdated term and typically refers to someone who does not identify as the gender they dress as. It's all good, just a learning opportunity.

(04-09-2024, 01:08 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Why not? I think this would be helping Society along the path of advancement? Wouldn't that be worth it in the long game? 

Anyways, this is a SOCIETY Issue, change doesn't happen over night, Take baby steps, other wise we will end up with another Roe Vs Wade 50 year flip flopping wasting more time and MONEY. 

I have an undergraduate degree in policy analysis, which is the field of crafting possible solutions to policy problems. We typically create multiple options and assess the feasibility of them looking at not just resources, but also the political viability. The idea of raising taxes for something like this would be a political non-starter. This is why this hasn't been proposed as an option. Not only would it be a hard sell for elected officials, the general public wouldn't go for it.

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 01:19 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think this is where my rub with all of this is. If a trans woman goes into the women's restroom, they are going to go to the stall, do their business, (hopefully) wash their hands, and leave. Same for a trans man. Why is this any different for them than a cis-gendered person? Trans people have almost certainly been using the same bathroom as you and your kids your whole lives without any issues.

I only wish it was this cut and dry. Please explain if you would, why a unisex bathroom wouldn't solve this.

[Belsnickel]

(04-09-2024, 01:32 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I only wish it was this cut and dry. Please explain if you would, why a unisex bathroom wouldn't solve this.

Why isn't it that cut and dry?

As for the unisex bathrooms, I already explained the issue with that solution: cost.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 01:04 PM)GMDino Wrote: Reminds of the time I walked in on two ladies in the unisex bathroom because they forgot to lock the door.  Luckily I realized quickly and shut it again and they just laugh

There's a big difference between your Oops and had you gone on in and did your thing. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-09-2024, 01:34 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Why isn't it that cut and dry?

As for the unisex bathrooms, I already explained the issue with that solution: cost.

Because it's not. As I stated, if it were only adults, most people wouldn't care. But children are a different story. Plus, I think you are putting too much trust that your scenario is full proof and that people won't be people and do bad things. I know that sounds like a weak explanation, but I don't know any better way at the moment to explain without it sounding offensive. 

I may have missed your explanation about cost. All I remember is you asking the question if we want our taxes going towards retrofitting. But this is no different than handicap ramps. It more than likely can be considered a public health need and if your going to have a business then you either have all 3 or you have 1 unisex, like a huge majority of small businesses have already. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(04-09-2024, 01:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Cross-dresser is an outdated term and typically refers to someone who does not identify as the gender they dress as. It's all good, just a learning opportunity.


I have an undergraduate degree in policy analysis, which is the field of crafting possible solutions to policy problems. We typically create multiple options and assess the feasibility of them looking at not just resources, but also the political viability. The idea of raising taxes for something like this would be a political non-starter. This is why this hasn't been proposed as an option. Not only would it be a hard sell for elected officials, the general public wouldn't go for it.

I might not have YOUR credentials, but i do have the ability to think ahead. It's a requirement for my job and is very much in line with my nature anyways. 

With the option that is currently on the table, I see lawsuits going this route, on top of keeping everyone divided and the hate increasing.

With Single Use br's, I don't see all of those problems arising, everyone has the exact same option and society would be free to grow at their own pace. 
Have you see any issues arise from outdoor events that use portable single use commodes (other than they can stink and sometimes a line)? 

Put that in your pipe and tell me which route would be the cheapest and best way to get Society where you want it for the long run. 

I might be an R, but i'm not against spending money for something I deem as a the right reasons. Frivolous sending? Yes, i will argue that.