Chauvin Will Be Innocent- Prepare For Riots

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2021, 11:17 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: If we were able to clean up all the inner cities across the Country I bet gun problems and crime would drop to unheard of low levels.

The stats on gun death rates show the highest numbers by far in mostly in the head deep red southern and western states.

But conservative Republicans like yourself iignore these facts in order to blame all the gun violence on "inner cities".

[KillerGoose]

(04-21-2021, 11:16 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: You post insults because you know that's your best chance at an "argument."

From USA Today:


You think the jury considered intent here?  You think Chauvin was just kneeling on him to attempt to assault him?

I do think they considered intent to do harm, but I do not believe that they considered intent to kill him, because the crime doesn’t include intent to kill him, as stated in the definition you just posted. That lowers the barrier for conviction. That wasn’t your original question. Your original question was regarding intent in murder, and whether or not Chauvin intended to murder him. I said that part was irrelevant because the crimes don’t include intent to kill. What you just posted supports that.

I do believe that Chauvin was kneeling on him intentionally to cause harm, yes. I do not believe Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, but there are multiple other ways that Floyd could have been kept under control other than kneeling on him as he pleads that he can’t breathe.

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 11:34 AM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I'm just tired of every time some white cop ends up shooting a black person chaos erupts all over the Country.  It's barbaric, neanderthal behavior and causes far more issues than it solves.

I bet there are not many people who could suit up and go into a high crime area where you are potentially a target 5 days a week.  I bet most pols, news personalities, Hollywood elite, etc., wouldn't last one day and if they did, I wonder how quick they would shoot someone out of fear for their own life.

There most certainly is a human element.  Especially if you want to see your family again.  It's easy to armchair quarterback from the news studio or your gated mansion.  It is easy to grab a frame of video and make it seem like murder.  Like the frame of the 13 year old with his hands up.  Problem is you are chasing someone at night, who is armed with a gun, who stops and turns around and his hand comes forward and you have a split second to decide if you are going to wait to see if the person shoots you or not.  You don't see that in that single frame.

with the way the black community is rioting every time something happens, I would fire every white cop and make it mandatory that only other black cops are allowed to patrol black neighborhoods/high crime areas.  I bet just as many people are shot, maybe even more.  Wanting to live to see the next day has nothing to do with skin color.

I am utterly disgusted with how law enforcement is vilified these days.

Well, there are a bunch of things at play making this all happen. First, I would love for people to wait until all of the information is out before making their snap judgements. However, in the information age we live in that just isn't likely to happen. So many of these incidents could have had better results had people just waited for all the information. This is why body cameras really are a boon for law enforcement in many ways.

The second, and larger issue, is that the black community has some solid reasons to have a distrust for the government, and that includes the police. Almost immediately upon black people being granted their freedom and their right to vote, laws were enacted to incarcerate them for petty crimes that denied them that right and allowed their labor to still be used without having to compensate them. They've been treated as guinea pigs by the government without their knowledge and face any number of systemic injustices that are still occurring in modern society, today. These aren't distant wrongs of the 19th century, these are things faced by those still living in their communities. The memory of the worst of these injustices is still strong, so when there is a perceived injustice it is added to that.

I want fairness for all, but we aren't there yet on either side of this.

[CJD]

(04-21-2021, 11:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, there are a bunch of things at play making this all happen. First, I would love for people to wait until all of the information is out before making their snap judgements. However, in the information age we live in that just isn't likely to happen. So many of these incidents could have had better results had people just waited for all the information. This is why body cameras really are a boon for law enforcement in many ways.

The second, and larger issue, is that the black community has some solid reasons to have a distrust for the government, and that includes the police. Almost immediately upon black people being granted their freedom and their right to vote, laws were enacted to incarcerate them for petty crimes that denied them that right and allowed their labor to still be used without having to compensate them. They've been treated as guinea pigs by the government without their knowledge and face any number of systemic injustices that are still occurring in modern society, today. These aren't distant wrongs of the 19th century, these are things faced by those still living in their communities. The memory of the worst of these injustices is still strong, so when there is a perceived injustice it is added to that.

I want fairness for all, but we aren't there yet on either side of this.

This is my belief as well. The black community has been oppressed for so long that I completely understand why they would not trust the police killed a black person in good faith. Not only do they have their own personal accounts of interactions with police, but they also have their parents and grandparents' accounts from when cops weren't subtly or covertly racist, but outwardly so. You can't expect all that to immediately disappear, especially when the mistreatment objectively continued for several decades after the civil rights act was passed.

All of these systems (police, the justice system, housing laws, hiring practices, loan and bankruptcy options, marriage laws, segregation, school districts, government funding, the drug war, voting, gerrymandering etc) that affect and dictate our society were built and maintained through the suffering of black people, so it's completely reasonable to be skeptical of them even today when there "is no racism anymore" (which is obviously not true, but a lot of people like to tell themselves this).

It's going to take a long time to heal the wounds of this country's past and those wounds will only stay open longer when conservatives continue to refuse to acknowledge and reconcile with these realities.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(04-21-2021, 12:02 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: This is my belief as well. The black community has been oppressed for so long that I completely understand why they would not trust the police killed a black person in good faith. Not only do they have their own personal accounts of interactions with police, but they also have their parents and grandparents' accounts from when cops weren't subtly or covertly racist, but outwardly so. You can't expect all that to immediately disappear, especially when the mistreatment objectively continued for several decades after the civil rights act was passed.

All of these systems (police, the justice system, housing laws, hiring practices, loan and bankruptcy options, marriage laws, segregation, school districts, government funding, the drug war, voting, gerrymandering etc) that affect and dictate our society were built and maintained through the suffering of black people, so it's completely reasonable to be skeptical of them even today when there "is no racism anymore" (which is obviously not true, but a lot of people like to tell themselves this).

It's going to take a long time to heal the wounds of this country's past and those wounds will only stay open longer when conservatives continue to refuse to acknowledge and reconcile with these realities.

I have no issue with anything in this post.  I will add that the current tact of the left is equally unhelpful.  The current environment is essentially white people are racist.  We're literally "solving" a problem by engaging in the same behavior that caused it in the first place.  I can't tell you how many very left leaning friends of mine have become completely turned off to the current brand of racial politics.  As usual we aren't correcting, we're over correcting.

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 12:02 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: This is my belief as well. The black community has been oppressed for so long that I completely understand why they would not trust the police killed a black person in good faith. Not only do they have their own personal accounts of interactions with police, but they also have their parents and grandparents' accounts from when cops weren't subtly or covertly racist, but outwardly so. You can't expect all that to immediately disappear, especially when the mistreatment objectively continued for several decades after the civil rights act was passed.

All of these systems (police, the justice system, housing laws, hiring practices, loan and bankruptcy options, marriage laws, segregation, school districts, government funding, the drug war, voting, gerrymandering etc) that affect and dictate our society were built and maintained through the suffering of black people, so it's completely reasonable to be skeptical of them even today when there "is no racism anymore" (which is obviously not true, but a lot of people like to tell themselves this).

It's going to take a long time to heal the wounds of this country's past and those wounds will only stay open longer when conservatives continue to refuse to acknowledge and reconcile with these realities.

(04-21-2021, 12:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have no issue with anything in this post.  I will add that the current tact of the left is equally unhelpful.  The current environment is essentially white people are racist.  We're literally "solving" a problem by engaging in the same behavior that caused it in the first place.  I can't tell you how many very left leaning friends of mine have become completely turned off to the current brand of racial politics.  As usual we aren't correcting, we're over correcting.

I was going to say something similar, specifically in response to the last line in the top post. These wounds won't heal when people are so quick to judge without waiting for all the information. I am quite happy to be skeptical of a situation, but before the entire Twitterverse starts sharpening their knives for a LEO, they need to wait for all of the information. When they jump to conclusions so quickly it does their arguments no good.

[Stewy]

(04-21-2021, 12:09 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I have no issue with anything in this post.  I will add that the current tact of the left is equally unhelpful.  The current environment is essentially white people are racist.  We're literally "solving" a problem by engaging in the same behavior that caused it in the first place.  I can't tell you how many very left leaning friends of mine have become completely turned off to the current brand of racial politics.  As usual we aren't correcting, we're over correcting.

But are we or have we correcting anything?  No laws have changed (yet).   It appears Congress is at least talking about it (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7120), but it isn't like this is a new issue (hi Rodney King from 30 years ago).

However, it's speculated that Republicans are going to do everything they can to kill the above legislation.

Until the gov't ACTS and does something, the situation is going to continue to get worse.   

[*jason*]

(04-21-2021, 11:17 AM)Nately120 Wrote: There is a societal aspect to this trial that goes beyond one cop and one black man.  I'll admit i have the luxury to brush it off, though. 

Kinda like how you weren't chomping at the bit (while sitting in your reasonably comfortable home in your reasonably comfortable neighborhood) to riot over the outcome of this case?

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 01:00 PM)Stewy Wrote: But are we or have we correcting anything?  No laws have changed (yet).   It appears Congress is at least talking about it (https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7120), but it isn't like this is a new issue (hi Rodney King from 30 years ago).

However, it's speculated that Republicans are going to do everything they can to kill the above legislation.

Until the gov't ACTS and does something, the situation is going to continue to get worse.   

In all seriousness, police reform can be important but we need to take a hard look at other laws that really play a role in this. Things like the federal decriminalization or legalization of marijuana could go a long way in helping mitigate the inequities in our society, especially considering how black people are incarcerated for those crimes at a much higher rate than white people despite similar usage rates.

[*Nately120*]

(04-21-2021, 02:03 PM)jason Wrote: Kinda like how you weren't chomping at the bit (while sitting in your reasonably comfortable home in your reasonably comfortable neighborhood) to riot over the outcome of this case?

Numerous Trump signs and flags are still up around me, so I can't declare myself safe from riots quite yet.  

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 11:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The stats on gun death rates show the highest numbers by far in mostly in the head deep red southern and western states.

But conservative Republicans like yourself iignore these facts in order to blame all the gun violence on "inner cities".

I'm not a conservative or a republican.  Am I a Conservative Republican when I am for LGBT rights?  Stop with the boxes.

[*Nately120*]

(04-21-2021, 02:59 PM)Mickeypoo Wrote: I'm not a conservative or a republican.  Am I a Conservative Republican when I am for LGBT rights?  Stop with the boxes.

Your talking points seem straight outta the neo con playbook. 

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2021, 03:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Your talking points seem straight outta the neo con playbook. 

They are. No one parrots more right-wing propaganda tham Mickey.

And no one is more ignorant of facts from outside the right-wing echo chamber than Mickey. I am constantly having to point these out to him.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 11:52 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, there are a bunch of things at play making this all happen. First, I would love for people to wait until all of the information is out before making their snap judgements. However, in the information age we live in that just isn't likely to happen. So many of these incidents could have had better results had people just waited for all the information. This is why body cameras really are a boon for law enforcement in many ways.

The second, and larger issue, is that the black community has some solid reasons to have a distrust for the government, and that includes the police. Almost immediately upon black people being granted their freedom and their right to vote, laws were enacted to incarcerate them for petty crimes that denied them that right and allowed their labor to still be used without having to compensate them. They've been treated as guinea pigs by the government without their knowledge and face any number of systemic injustices that are still occurring in modern society, today. These aren't distant wrongs of the 19th century, these are things faced by those still living in their communities. The memory of the worst of these injustices is still strong, so when there is a perceived injustice it is added to that.

I want fairness for all, but we aren't there yet on either side of this.

I agree with some to most of this.  

I'm not trying to downplay how the black community may feel towards the govt, police, etc., but this rioting and destruction is not helping them.  How do you think the average Joe Blow American of any race feels when every time there is a riot or looting or destruction by a large group of people he sees a super majority of black people who only make up 13% of the population?  

They are not helping themselves in any way, shape or form by acting like this.  In fact I would say the opposite is happening.  People are getting tired of it.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 03:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Your talking points seem straight outta the neo con playbook. 

(04-21-2021, 03:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They are. No one parrots more right-wing propaganda tham Mickey.

And no one is more ignorant of facts from outside the right-wing echo chamber than Mickey. I am constantly having to point these out to him.

Uh huh.  I don't even know what a Neo-con is.  lol.

[Mickeypoo]

(04-21-2021, 02:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Numerous Trump signs and flags are still up around me, so I can't declare myself safe from riots quite yet.  

I have a feeling you know you are perfectly safe.  Now if there were a bunch of ANTIFA/BLM flags up around you I am sure you would have some actual cause for concern.

[BFritz21]

(04-21-2021, 11:31 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes. That is exactly what the jury considered. 

If Chauvin was just "doing his job" he would not have continued kneeling on Floyd after he became unresponsive.

He was only unresponsive for three of those minutes, which, after 6 minutes of yelling that he can't breathe, why would he all the sudden believe that Floyd couldn't breathe when he obviously could for those 6 minutes?

Chauvin may have been guilty of manslaughter in that regard, but intent still isn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Belsnickel]

(04-21-2021, 03:20 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He was only unresponsive for three of those minutes, which, after 6 minutes of yelling that he can't breathe, why would he all the sudden believe that Floyd couldn't breathe when he obviously could for those 6 minutes?

Chauvin may have been guilty of manslaughter in that regard, but intent still isn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Intent is irrelevant to the conversation. It isn't a requirement for the murder charge he was convicted of.

[BFritz21]

(04-21-2021, 11:50 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: I do think they considered intent to do harm, but I do not believe that they considered intent to kill him, because the crime doesn’t include intent to kill him, as stated in the definition you just posted. That lowers the barrier for conviction. That wasn’t your original question. Your original question was regarding intent in murder, and whether or not Chauvin intended to murder him. I said that part was irrelevant because the crimes don’t include intent to kill. What you just posted supports that.

I do believe that Chauvin was kneeling on him intentionally to cause harm, yes. I do not believe Chauvin intended to kill Floyd, but there are multiple other ways that Floyd could have been kept under control other than kneeling on him as he pleads that he can’t breathe.

He was kneeling on his shoulder to keep him under control.  Guy just tried to use a counterfeit bill, had drugs on him and possibly in his system, and had a long rap sheet, that included holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly, so you don't think that Chauvin was correct in keeping him under control.  

Once again, you can't speak if you can't breathe.

[Au165]

(04-21-2021, 03:26 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He was kneeling on his shoulder to keep him under control.  Guy just tried to use a counterfeit bill, had drugs on him and possibly in his system, and had a long rap sheet, that included holding a gun to a pregnant woman's belly, so you don't think that Chauvin was correct in keeping him under control.  

Once again, you can't speak if you can't breathe.

Experts said otherwise and a jury of his peers agreed with those experts. You are wrong yet again Brad.