(09-04-2023, 06:13 PM)pally Wrote: Joe is the ONLY candidate talking about corporations paying their fair share. Don't forget the Republicans LOWERED corporate taxes and taxes on the 1%
Trump is only talking about 2020. DeSantis is banking on "anti-woke", Vivek is counting on being a younger Trump. There is no Republican actually talking about plans to improve the economy. The do talk about how "awful" things are with lots of fearmongering to gin things up.
The ONLY candidate who talks about jobs and the economy, and what still needs to happen is Biden
And if polls more than a year in advance were accurate...then we would have several different presidents, including President Hillary Clinton who beat Jeb Bush in the 2016 election.
Biden vs Trump will NOT come down to most people voting with their pocketbooks. It will come down to whether want chaos and revenge of Trump vs normality with challenges of Biden
we've already covered this.
Not just the 1%, Everyone got lowered taxes. And those cuts to ALL individuals was not permanent.
Corporate taxes were permanent.
(09-04-2023, 07:04 PM)pally Wrote: NAFTA was signed 30 years ago. It was not signed with the idea that jobs would move to Mexico and Canada. I'm sure when he first proposed it Ronald Readen didn't think so. I'm equally sure that George H. W. Bush when he started the negotiations in 1991, didn't think job loss would be the consequence either.
I'm not downplaying the results of NAFTA and other decisions from the long-ago past that have an impact on today's voters. But, the people who have let NAFTA be a guiding force in their votes are already in Tump's camp so am not really sure what impact that would have on 2024.
You ignore the younger voters who care about things that are being ignored or poo-pooed by the Republicans. Voters from ages 18-35 frankly don't give a damn about NAFTA.
And mangled or not, at least Biden is talking about jobs which is more than anyone can say about the Republicans.
Here's a SNL skit from late in 1993, firmly during the Bill Clinton era, over 5 years past Ronald Reagan's time in office. NAFTA wasn't even signed into effect until 1994, but the clever writers at SNL (along with most everyone else) knew exactly what NAFTA was going to bring.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(09-05-2023, 08:30 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's a SNL skit from late in 1993, firmly during the Bill Clinton era, over 5 years past Ronald Reagan's time in office. NAFTA wasn't even signed into effect until 1994, but the clever writers at SNL (along with most everyone else) knew exactly what NAFTA was going to bring.
I never said Clinton didn't sign it. I said it was proposed under the Reagan administration and negotiated during the Bush administration. It was finalized and signed by Clinton. There are more reliable sources on the history of NAFTA than SNL
Regardless, it still does not move the needle for voters under 40. They are looking towards the future not the past. Republicans, especially Trump, need to start looking years into the future not years into the past to gain anything with younger voters
(09-05-2023, 08:39 AM)pally Wrote: I never said Clinton didn't sign it. I said it was proposed under the Reagan administration and negotiated during the Bush administration. It was finalized and signed by Clinton. There are more reliable sources on the history of NAFTA than SNL
Regardless, it still does not move the needle for voters under 40. They are looking towards the future not the past. Republicans, especially Trump, need to start looking years into the future not years into the past to gain anything with younger voters
Perhaps younger voters need to examine the mistakes of the past, and realize that dramatic changes for the future do not always turn out the way you'd like them to?
Regardless of the source of the video that offered perspective on what the general public was thinking about NAFTA, well before it was signed. YOU stated that it wasn't intended to send jobs to Mexico and Canada, when obviously everyone down to pop culture entertainment writers knew that it was.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(09-05-2023, 08:39 AM)pally Wrote: I never said Clinton didn't sign it. I said it was proposed under the Reagan administration and negotiated during the Bush administration. It was finalized and signed by Clinton. There are more reliable sources on the history of NAFTA than SNL
Regardless, it still does not move the needle for voters under 40. They are looking towards the future not the past. Republicans, especially Trump, need to start looking years into the future not years into the past to gain anything with younger voters
So young people are looking at a 2nd term for POTUS who promised them their student debt would be taken care of by the government. Yeah, they were dumb enough to believe that promise back in 2020, I have a hunch that they would hang JB if given the chance now.
They also got another lesson, the green deal killed our economy along with other poor Biden policies. The Biden economy flat out sucks and the lower and middle income feel it the worst. Guess what, a lot of them are 40 and under.
So keep thinking Biden and Democrats own the black, hispanic and young vote. I think you are your left friends are in for a rude awakening. Two other issues impacting those 40 and under are illegal immigration killing jobs and keeping wages lower and the left's push to disregard parents in their school districts.
I will be interested to see the urban cities vote in vast majority cities like New York, Boston, Chicago and LA now that these cities have to deal with illegal immigrants given more than tax payers in those cities. Illegal immigrants forcing their children off of the football and soccer field to house illegal immigrants. The left leaning liberal parents were fine when it had no impact on their children or their life, but that has all changed now.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(09-05-2023, 09:19 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Perhaps younger voters need to examine the mistakes of the past, and realize that dramatic changes for the future do not always turn out the way you'd like them to?
Well, they are looking at the mistakes of the past and adjusting their views. Clinton marked shift to the right for the Democratic party and NAFTA was a part of that. NAFTA is an economically conservative policy as it is an effort to promote a more free and open market economy. It is a policy in what is called the "neo-liberal" school of thought that was a hallmark of the Democratic party for the past few decades and, arguably, still is.
Both the Republicans and Democrats held to this line of policy which is one of the reasons why the culture wars were so heavily relied upon by our politicians. What do you have to turn to when both parties are doing the same thing of keeping taxes low, claiming to balance the budget, and promoting a more free-market global economy? Well, you stoke the flames on social issues. But I digress.
Anyway, Trump was able to resonate with so many Americans because the Democratic party, who for many years was the party of labor, had abandoned them for these neo-liberal principles. Trump latched onto the GOP because that was where his rhetoric got traction, but his messaging on the economic issues could have tracked well on the Democratic side; it's why you saw a lot of Bernie-to-Trump folks. He turned things on their heads by doing this, though. The GOP is toeing the MAGA line, but it abandons their principles in many ways. At the same time, we are seeing a more progressive group start to recognize the way the Democrats have moved away from their anti-trust, pro-labor, for-the-little-guy ways and are attempting to pull them back to the left on these issues. The difference between the two movements is that Trump's is a little paradoxical. He talks out of both sides of his mouth on the issues which allows the GOP politicians to continue on with their pro-business ways without much concern because it still matches up with much of what Trump says and they just ignore any of the things that are pro-labor.
Anyway, I just had to pop in for this because it really is an interesting phenomenon but is often misunderstood. People tie too much of their identities into this whole mess and it becomes too emotional for them and makes it hard to cut through to look at it objectively. It's what leads to the behavior that has caused me to step back from the forum.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
Note, this a NYT article, not a Fox news article. It explains why Biden is losing votes by the day.
NY Times columnist gives readers surprising reality check on why Americans are 'down on Biden'
Bret Stephens also pointed to increased prices, the border crisis and a 'humiliating' withdrawal from Afghanistan
NYT columnist Bret Stephens first noted the increased price of eggs and white bread. He added that the price of gasoline was "up 63 percent since January 2021, the month Biden became president."
"The news isn’t all that good. Americans are unsettled by things that are not always visible in headlines or statistics but are easy enough to see," Stephens wrote.
"The inflation ordinary people experience in everyday life is not the one the government prefers to highlight," he wrote.
Stephens also pointed to "the collapse of public order," the border crisis, concerns about his age and "a humiliating Afghanistan withdrawal."
"Easy to see is that the president is not young for his age. The stiff gait and the occasional falls. The apparent dozing off. The times he draws a blank or struggles to complete a thought. Yet the same people yelling #ResignFeinstein or #ResignMcConnell don’t appear to be especially vocal when it comes to the president’s fitness, as if noting the obvious risks repeating a Republican talking point," he wrote.
"But people notice, and they vote," he added.
Stephens also said tent cities in places like New York as well as increased theft in major cities across the U.S. were "easy" for voters to see.
"Not all the ruin mentioned above is Biden’s fault, and none of it is irreversible. But there’s much more ruin than his apologists — blinkered by selective statistics and too confident about the president’s chances next year — care to admit," he added.
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
The above post just makes me think that the GOP could win with anyone except Trump who may or may not win in 2024. This would be like pointing out that by 1980 Americans weren't thrilled with Jimmy Carter, so instead of turning to Reagan they just said "Well, Gerald Ford should be able to beat him this time. People have opened their eyes that they made a mistake in 1976 and will correct it in 1980."
(09-06-2023, 05:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: The above post just makes me think that the GOP could win with anyone except Trump who may or may not win in 2024. This would be like pointing out that by 1980 Americans weren't thrilled with Jimmy Carter, so instead of turning to Reagan they just said "Well, Gerald Ford should be able to beat him this time. People have opened their eyes that they made a mistake in 1976 and will correct it in 1980."
I mean, that is what Stephens is trying to portray. He is a conservative that is a part of the "never Trump" crowd. The "article" is an opinion column written by him, a conservative commentator.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
"The news isn’t all that good. Americans are unsettled by things that are not always visible in headlines or statistics but are easy enough to see," Stephens wrote.
"The inflation ordinary people experience in everyday life is not the one the government prefers to highlight," he wrote.
Stephens also pointed to "the collapse of public order," the border crisis, concerns about his age and "a humiliating Afghanistan withdrawal."
"Easy to see is that the president is not young for his age. The stiff gait and the occasional falls. The apparent dozing off. The times he draws a blank or struggles to complete a thought. Yet the same people yelling #ResignFeinstein or #ResignMcConnell don’t appear to be especially vocal when it comes to the president’s fitness, as if noting the obvious risks repeating a Republican talking point," he wrote. "But people notice, and they vote," he added.
Stephens also said tent cities in places like New York as well as increased theft in major cities across the U.S. were "easy" for voters to see.
"Not all the ruin mentioned above is Biden’s fault, and none of it is irreversible. But there’s much more ruin than his apologists — blinkered by selective statistics and too confident about the president’s chances next year — care to admit," he added.
These people who are so good at noticing things might be expected to notice Trump tried to overturn a valid election and will promise
more of the same, less fettered, fewer guard rails, the next time around.
Did they also "notice" that Trump was found liable for defamation of his rape victim, twice?
That he's heading for multiple court dates on multiple felony charges?
How would another Trump presidency reverse the "ruin"? He would pick another great cabinet for starters, right?
Maybe pardon Eastman and Meadows, get the band back together.
(09-06-2023, 06:34 PM)Dill Wrote: These people who are so good at noticing things might be expected to notice Trump tried to overturn a valid election and will promise
more of the same, less fettered, fewer guard rails, the next time around.
Did they also "notice" that Trump was found liable for defamation of his rape victim, twice?
That he's heading for multiple court dates on multiple felony charges?
How would another Trump presidency reverse the "ruin"? He would pick another great cabinet for starters, right?
Maybe pardon Eastman and Meadows, get the band back together.
Stephens isn't arguing for Trump. He is trying to make the case that the GOP needs to ditch Trump because Biden is weak and they can win against him if they put up the right candidate. Stephens is a part of the GOP "never Trump" movement.
"A great democracy has got to be progressive, or it will soon cease to be either great or a democracy..." - TR
"The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little." - FDR
(09-06-2023, 06:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Stephens isn't arguing for Trump. He is trying to make the case that the GOP needs to ditch Trump because Biden is weak and they can win against him if they put up the right candidate. Stephens is a part of the GOP "never Trump" movement.
That's got to be rough. Biden trips and democrats start shining up Newsome like he's a blemished apple, meanwhile Trump could die on national TV tomorrow and he'd still get millions of votes in 2024 and probably a few hundred thousand in 2028.
September 7, 2023 Polls
More bad news for Biden. from CNN polls
Thursday, September 7
Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
General Election: Trump vs. Biden CNN Biden 46, Trump 47 Trump +1
General Election: DeSantis vs. Biden CNN Biden 47, DeSantis 47 Tie
General Election: Ramaswamy vs. Biden CNN Biden 46, Ramaswamy 45 Biden +1
General Election: Haley vs. Biden CNN Biden 43, Haley 49 Haley +6
General Election: Pence vs. Biden CNN Biden 44, Pence 46 Pence +2
General Election: Scott vs. Biden CNN Biden 44, Scott 46 Scott +2
General Election: Christie vs. Biden CNN Christie 44, Biden 42 Christie +2 President Biden Job Approval CNN Approve 39, Disapprove 61 Disapprove +22
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(09-07-2023, 10:35 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: September 7, 2023 Polls
More bad news for Biden. from CNN polls
Thursday, September 7
Race/Topic (Click to Sort) Poll Results Spread
General Election: Trump vs. Biden CNN Biden 46, Trump 47 Trump +1
General Election: DeSantis vs. Biden CNN Biden 47, DeSantis 47 Tie
General Election: Ramaswamy vs. Biden CNN Biden 46, Ramaswamy 45 Biden +1
General Election: Haley vs. Biden CNN Biden 43, Haley 49 Haley +6
General Election: Pence vs. Biden CNN Biden 44, Pence 46 Pence +2
General Election: Scott vs. Biden CNN Biden 44, Scott 46 Scott +2
General Election: Christie vs. Biden CNN Christie 44, Biden 42 Christie +2 President Biden Job Approval CNN Approve 39, Disapprove 61 Disapprove +22
Quote:Most Americans say they think President Joe Biden was involved in his son’s business dealings with Ukraine and China while he served as vice president under Barack Obama, according to a CNN poll conducted by SSRS.
A majority, 61%, say they think that Biden had at least some involvement in Hunter Biden’s business dealings, with 42% saying they think he acted illegally, and 18% saying that his actions were unethical but not illegal. Another 38% say they don’t believe Joe Biden had any involvement in his son’s business dealings during his vice presidency. Just 1% believe Biden was involved, but did not do anything wrong. A 55% majority of the public says the president has acted inappropriately regarding the investigation into Hunter Biden over potential crimes, while 44% say that he has acted appropriately. The poll was conducted before special counsel David Weiss said in a Wednesday court filing that he intends to seek an indictment against Hunter Biden relating to gun charges by the end of the month. President Biden has denied being involved in any of his son’s business dealings, and House Oversight Republicans have not presented any direct evidence that the president personally benefited from any of them. Americans’ views on Joe Biden’s conduct related to Hunter Biden largely divide along partisan lines. Fewer than one-third of Democrats believe that Biden had involvement in his son’s business dealings, or that he has acted inappropriately regarding the investigation. Even among Democratic-aligned voters who say they’d prefer to see their party nominate someone different in next year’s presidential election, just 37% believe Joe Biden was involved in his son’s business dealings, and only 29% find his actions regarding the investigation inappropriate. In response to an open-ended question asking for their biggest concern about Joe Biden as a candidate, almost none mentioned the situation regarding Hunter Biden. By contrast, broad majorities of Republicans say they think Joe Biden acted illegally in regards to his son’s business dealings (76%), and behaved inappropriately regarding the later investigation into Hunter Biden (90%). Independents mostly say Joe Biden did have some involvement in Hunter Biden’s business dealings while serving as vice president (64%), but fewer (39%) say he acted illegally in doing so. About half feel he has acted inappropriately regarding the investigation (52%). The CNN Poll was conducted by SSRS from August 25-31 among a random national sample of 1,503 adults drawn from a probability-based panel. The survey included an oversample to reach a total of 898 Republicans and Republican-leaning independents; this group has been weighted to its proper size within the population. Surveys were either conducted online or by telephone with a live interviewer. Results among the full sample have a margin of sampling error of plus or minus 3.5 points.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
The liberals will spin this in some way. They hate to admit Joe Biden is considered corrupt by most Republicans and Independents. I wonder if CNN will cover their own polls.How about MSNBC and NBC, will they cover the liberal CNN polls?
Free Agency ain't over until it is over.
First 6 years BB - 41 wins and 54 losses with 1-1 playoff record with 2 teams Browns and Pats
(09-07-2023, 12:01 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: People think birds are government cameras.
People think the moon isn't real.
People think the Earth is flat.
People are idiots.
Idk, 61% covers a lot more than extreme Right Wingers and lunatic fringe tin foil hatters.. Hell, that's actually getting close to a veto-proof majority.
Volson is meh, but I like him, and he has far exceeded my expectations
(09-07-2023, 05:01 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Pretty sure this falls under that whole personal attack thing we all just got a stern talking to about.
Might wanna check yourself; otherwise you'll have to read your Fox News echo chamber nonsense by yourself.
I'd be interested to see if being condescending warrants discipline around here because there are a few posters that (in past) have reeked of it and have always gone unchecked.
-The only bengals fan that has never set foot in Cincinnati 1-15-22
![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png)
