Confederate Flag Misunderstood?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-24-2015, 05:40 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: They have been changing history and what's taught for over 100 years now...   It's a mistake to change history we must all know the good, the bad, and the ugly.

What history have "they" changed?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-24-2015, 05:43 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Sure as soon as they take their pro sharia law buddies from my country and take them home.  

Oh and stop raping, murdering, and enslaving christians.  

Soon as they do that then I will stop.

It's okay to enact laws to discriminate against homosexuals based upon your religion, but you won't stand for another religion's laws governing you. The irony.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-24-2015, 05:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I dont care one way or the other.   The only part that bothers me is that so many outside of SC are chiming in to slam the flag that obviously aren't educated on it or the whole reason we had a civil war.    I don't live there so I don't have the right to tell anyone there what they should do....  But I don't like the tone of some who are trying to push an agenda.   Let the citizens of SC decide, put it on the ballot .  

Do you live in SC?  I know you have told me before but I can't remember...

I live in Charleston...

[*jason*]

(06-24-2015, 06:37 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I live in Charleston...

Boom....  The people have spoken.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-24-2015, 05:48 PM)jason Wrote: Substitute Christians with blacks, and maybe you will see what the hubbub about that flag is all about...

Your about 150 years late on that mate. Move on.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-24-2015, 06:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What history have "they" changed?

Haha where do I start ....

Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, FDR, Hoover.... None of their realities make it a public school lesson.

History is kind to Ford who pardons Nixon. It shoudln't be.... That inability to come down hard on those who corrupt the system has created a world where the top political class is doing favors when each other are corrupt.

The whole reason we had the civil war. History is told from a Northeners perspective. So they have painted the south in a way that's unflattering. And some of that is not far. Some of it is however. But many of those things were common practice in the north as well.

Too many to keep naming. But it's history from their perspective. Not giving the whole picture and then letting us decide what we agree with and what we do not... And by them I mean progressives, who have invaded our univeristies and taken tried to put forth their version of history. Exactly why we have people using that ridiculous Howars Zinn book.

[StLucieBengal]

(06-24-2015, 06:37 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I live in Charleston...

I thought you were down that way ... Wasn't sure if it were NC.  

[*bfine32*]

http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/HaireoftheDog/archives/2015/06/22/sc-sons-of-confederate-veterans-on-mother-emanuel-shooting

Quote:On the night of June 17, 2015, an attempt was made to break the spirit of all South Carolinians.

The deranged mind of a horrendous individual, entered Emanuel AME Church in Charleston, and took the lives of nine admirable individuals. This historic House of God became the scene of a brutal massacre beyond understanding. We all contemplate, why did this happen?

Perhaps this is a question that cannot be answered. What kind of a world are we leaving behind for our children, when you can’t go into God’s House without the threat of being gunned down? This is, in fact a crime of hate and an act of terrorism. It is reported that the culprit’s craving was to bring about “civil” war and division between Black and White citizens of the Palmetto State. This did not happen. We will not allow it to happen. South Carolinians will stand together hand in hand regardless of race, creed, or skin color to prevent it from happening. South Carolina will not cower to the evil deeds of one hateful being.

The Sons of Confederate Veterans extends our heartfelt sympathy to the families who have lost loved ones in this tragedy. We stand with the citizens of Charleston as they come together to mourn the loss of these beloved individuals. We pray that God will grant them comfort and peace during this time of despair. Emanuel Church proclaims compassion, peace, and justice throughout the historic Grand City of the South. This congregation stands for what is right and is a force against evil. Hatred has reared its ugly face in our country masquerading as political correctness. What God has ordained as righteous and just will always be righteous and just. What God has ordained as evil will always be evil. No man, government, or principality has authority to change the will of God.

Hatred is evil. Recent acts in Charleston are just plain evil. South Carolinians have chosen to defeat evil by offering love and support of each other, rather than disobedience, distrust and destruction. Disobedience and destruction only breeds yet more hatred and evil.

Historical fact shows there were Black Confederate soldiers. These brave men fought in the trenches beside their White brothers, all under the Confederate Battle Flag. This same Flag stands as a memorial to these soldiers on the grounds of the SC Statehouse today. The Sons of Confederate Veterans, a historical honor society, does not delineate which Confederate soldier we will remember or honor. We cherish and revere the memory of all Confederate veterans. None of them, Black or White, shall be forgotten.

The SC Division, Sons of Confederate Veterans has a stringently enforced Hate Policy. We will remove any member who expresses racist hatred sentiments. Anyone with ties to racist organizations will not be granted membership. The perpetrator of the vile act in Charleston has never been a member or associated with the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Unfortunately some other subversive organizations distort Confederate symbols in an attempt to make them stand for hatred and disillusion. The SCV vehemently opposes the ideals and actions of such organizations.
The Sons of Confederate Veterans has both Black and White members. In our eyes there is no difference. Our membership is made up of descendants of Native-Americans, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Hispanics, Christians and Jewish who took a stand for the Cause they believed was right. The love and defense of the South’s symbols, culture, and heritage is not hate. It is knowing and understanding of the truth.

Not knowing your heritage is ignorance.

Our organization offers to everyone the opportunity to learn the true facts of the war fought on American soil between 1861-1865 and the heritage we value. That is why we exist. Our camps are listed on our website, http://www.scscv.com on our About Us Page. This is your invitation to attend any of our meetings.
It is shameful and disgraceful that other organizations chose to use this heinous act to promote their political agenda. Do not associate the cowardly actions of a racist to our Confederate Banner; for it is a Banner of honorable men, both Black and White.

There is absolutely no link between The Charleston Massacre and The Confederate Memorial Banner. Don’t try to create one.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(06-24-2015, 03:08 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: . Originally, the Civil War was never started over slavery, it was started because of many issues, states rights being one of those issues, but slavery was one reason way down the list.

http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/dukes-hazzard-star-ben-jones-defends-confederate-flag-article-1.2269598

First you stated this.

(06-24-2015, 03:53 PM)RICHMONDBENGAL_07 Wrote: Wow you fail at history.   You're one of those that refer to it as "The War of Northern Aggression" aren't you.

So I then stated this.  Note I was only commenting on the bolded part  (Which is why bolded it in the first place), and made no comment on the confederate flag.

(06-24-2015, 05:13 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: Soooooo, you're saying we have a moral obligation to eradicate the flag from history?




what are you saying?

So you'll have to excuse me as to how you came to this conclusion?  But since we're here, no it shouldn't be eradicated history.  But, also, it should not be flown from government buildings.


Back to my original point though.  You should brush up on the "how's" and "why's" the Civil war started. You're partially correct on states rights, But very far off on the slavery issue.

[fredtoast]

(06-24-2015, 04:01 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: Most people in this thread, in the United States, as well in most of the states that were a part of the Confederacy have not read the Articles of Succession.  We are blessed that the leaders of that failed country had the forethought to document so clearly what they thought would be the beginning of their new countries rich history.  It is within that documentation that historians are easily able to brush of the idea that Slavery was not the key issue.

This times 1000.

People can try to spin it as much as they want, but the war was mainly over slavery.

The fact that people without slaves were forced to fight in defense of their homeland does not change the fact that the war was over slavery.

You can claim that the American revolution was also treason, but it was justified because it was a war against colonial exploitation.

I don't judge the results of these two wars just based on who won.  If there were similar wars fought today that did not involve the United States I would still say that a war against colonial exploitation was justified and a war to support slavery was not.

[fredtoast]

(06-24-2015, 10:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: http://www.charlestoncitypaper.com/HaireoftheDog/archives/2015/06/22/sc-sons-of-confederate-veterans-on-mother-emanuel-shooting

There is absolutely no link between The Charleston Massacre and The Confederate Memorial Banner. Don’t try to create one.


This is absurd.  There absolutely is a link.  The Confederate Flag is one of the main symbols of the White Supremacists movement.  Just because this group denies it is does not make it so.  They can control how they view the flag, but they can't change reality just because they don't believe it.

[Bilbo Saggins]

(06-24-2015, 03:19 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I challenge you to read the articles of secession and find the numerous issues that are mentioned prior to slavery. 

The vast majority of the verbiage used in the articles of secession were just euphemisms for slavery. The secession and the war were 100% brought about by the issue of slavery and nothing else. It wasn't until after the war that the "states rights" myth started.

As far as the OP's question: the confederate flag represents a nation that was formed ONLY for the purpose of continuing the barbaric practice of slavery. I may have a cultural bias being a "yank" and all, but I really do despise that flag. Anyone who wears it or displays it is basically sporting a gigantic "I'm a douchebag" bullseye on their forehead. Slavery was wrong, the south got its ass kicked, let's get the losers flag out of US government.

[Devils Advocate]

In broader terms, the entire civil war has been misrepresented, to say the least, in our history books.

It was not a war for states rights. It was about slavery but not in the sense we've been taught. Unfortunately many of you's will gloss over or outright ignore this but it's important information that's been omitted from the class room. You are about to graduate from history 101 and move on to H102.

After the war ended congress passed The Reconstruction Act, claiming the Southern states were under unlawful governments essentially declaring war and placing them under Martial Law and dividing them up into 5 military districts which still stand to this day.  The bill was then vetoed by President Johnson, but over ruled by congress dubiously, Northern States even removing a NJ senator and counting 30 absent votes as 'yah's' to secure the 2/3's necessary for ratification.

from Johnson's veto message

Quote:"It is plain that the authority here given to the military officer amounts to absolute despotism. But to make it still more unendurable, the bill provides that it may be delegated to as many subordinates as he chooses to appoint, for it declares that he shall 'punish or cause to be punished'. Such a power has not been wielded by any Monarch in England for more than five hundred years. In all that time no people who speak the English language have borne such servitude. It reduces the whole population of the ten States- all persons, of every color, sex and condition, and every stranger within their limits- to the most abject and degrading slavery. No master ever had a control so absolute over the slaves as this bill gives to the military officers over both white and colored persons...."

Quote:"...The Constitution also forbids the arrest of the citizen without judicial warrant, founded on probable cause. This bill authorizes an arrest without warrant, at pleasure of a military commander. The Constitution declares that 'no person shall be held to answer for a capital or otherwise infamous crime unless on presentment of a grand jury'. This bill holds ever person not a soldier answerable for all crimes and all charges without any presentment. The Constitution declares that 'no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due process of law'. This bill sets aside all process of law, and makes the citizen answerable in his person and property to the will of one man, and as to his life to the will of two. Finally, the Constitution declares that 'the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended unless when, in case of rebellion or invasion, the public safety may require it'; whereas this bill declares martial law (which of itself suspends this great writ) in time of peace, and authorizes the military to make the arrest, and gives to the prisoner only one privilege, and that is trial 'without unnecessary delay'. He has no hope of release from custody, except the hope, such as it is, of release by acquittal before a military commission."

The cotton gin and industrialization would've made slavery obsolete. The 'rebel' flag represents more, as I only barely touched upon. It's been demonized because TPTB don't want you to know what really happened.

[RICHMONDBENGAL_07]

(06-25-2015, 02:21 AM)Devils Advocate Wrote: In broader terms, the entire civil war has been misrepresented, to say the least, in our history books.

It was not a war for states rights. It was about slavery but not in the sense we've been taught. Unfortunately many of you's will gloss over or outright ignore this but it's important information that's been omitted from the class room. You are about to graduate from history 101 and move on to H102.

After the war ended congress passed The Reconstruction Act, claiming the Southern states were under unlawful governments essentially declaring war and placing them under Martial Law and dividing them up into 5 military districts which still stand to this day.  The bill was then vetoed by President Johnson, but over ruled by congress dubiously, Northern States even removing a NJ senator and counting 30 absent votes as 'yah's' to secure the 2/3's necessary for ratification.

from Johnson's veto message



The cotton gin and industrialization would've made slavery obsolete. The 'rebel' flag represents more, as I only barely touched upon. It's been demonized because TPTB don't want you to know what really happened.

You mean the same Andrew Johnson that was a known white supremacist who said and I quote: "This is a country for white men, and by God, as long as I am President, it shall be a government for white men."

But though he especially despised wealthy plantation owners, he was a firm believer in the institution of slavery, and he himself was a slave owner.  "If you liberate the negro, what will be the next step?" He once asked in typically outrageous form.  "It would place every splay-footed, bandy-shanked, humpbacked negro in the country upon an equality with the poor white man." "You can't get rid of the negro except by holding him in slavery."

Another good quote:  "To think," said an editorial in the New York World, "that one frail life stands between this insolent, clownish creature and the Presidency."

I'd say it's safe to say he sympathized with the south.  Interesting President though.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-24-2015, 07:17 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Haha where do I start ....    

Woodrow Wilson, Teddy Roosevelt, Taft, FDR, Hoover.... None of their realities make it a public school lesson.  

History is kind to Ford who pardons Nixon.   It shoudln't be.... That inability to come down hard on those who corrupt the system has created a world where the top political class is doing favors when each other are corrupt.  

The whole reason we had the civil war.   History is told from a Northeners perspective.  So they have painted the south in a way that's unflattering.   And some of that is not far.    Some of it is however.   But many of those things were common practice in the north as well.  

Too many to keep naming.  But it's history from their perspective.   Not giving the whole picture and then letting us decide what we agree with and what we do not...     And by them I mean progressives, who have invaded our univeristies and taken tried to put forth their version of history.    Exactly why we have people using that ridiculous Howars Zinn book.

this argument that southerners are painted in a way that is unflattering holds no water. All one needs to do is read what the southerner wrote to see that as far as the reasons for secession, it is the southerner that is working the revisionist history.

[*michaelsean*]

See I wouldn't remove it because modern racists have adopted it. I wouldn't let them force me out of my heritage. I would change it for what it originally stood for. Rebellion against a government in which they had equal participation and the right to have slaves.

[SteelCitySouth]

(06-25-2015, 10:28 AM)michaelsean Wrote: See I wouldn't remove it because modern racists have adopted it.  I wouldn't let them force me out of my heritage.  I would change it for what it originally stood for.  Rebellion against a government in which they had equal participation and the right to have slaves.

How about both.

[Belsnickel]

(06-25-2015, 07:50 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: this argument that southerners are painted in a way that is unflattering holds no water. All one needs to do is read what the southerner wrote to see that as far as the reasons for secession, it is the southerner that is working the revisionist history.

Yeah, there are some things I can see the southern viewpoint on, but the end point is that the secession occurred because of slavery. Any time they say that the issue was states' rights they are neglecting to mention it was the right to be a slave state that caused the whole debate.

That all being said, the war was bound to happen. There were too many cultural, ideological, and economic differences between the two halves of the country going back to the founding that were not reconciled well enough at that point. Much like the issue of slavery in and of itself the founders took the option of "let the people in the future deal with it."

[Au165]

The swastika wasn't invented by the Nazi's but was adopted by them forever changing it's meaning. A symbols meaning is based on how the majority of those who see it perceive it. It is now a symbol of racism based on it's current use and the general public's perception.

[BengalHawk62]

(06-25-2015, 11:32 AM)Au165 Wrote: The swastika wasn't invented by the Nazi's but was adopted by them forever changing it's meaning. A symbols meaning is based on how the majority of those who see it perceive it. It is now a symbol of racism based on it's current use and the general public's perception.

Originally, the swastika was a Hindu symbol meaning 'good luck' or 'lucky charm'.