Drag March "Coming for your children"

[BengalYankee]

(06-29-2023, 01:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This is what passed for wholesome family entertainment in my day.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-29-2023, 02:17 PM)Lucidus Wrote: If the outrage concerning the perceived grooming and targeting of children is genuine in the subforum, one should be able to find ongoing discussions about the actual, verified patterns of such instances, such as the never ending cases of clergy members not only grooming and targeting children, but actually abusing them physically and mentally. 

It seems these discussions rarely get touched upon though, even though clergy members are getting arrested, prosecuted and convicted on a daily basis in this country. However, there is no outrage. Instead, the clergy community just keeps actually doing the very things the drag / transgender communities are being accused of.

I find it very hard to take the outrage seriously when a blind eye is turned and voices are silent in regards to very real and demonstrable grooming, targeting and abuse that happens every day in churches, youth groups, religious schools, etc. across the US and the world. 

Why is that topic, that outrage, almost nonexistent in this subforum, and usually gets dismissed when it is brought up? Why is it that the outage is so unproportionate? Perhaps those asserting transgender grooming and targeting on a daily basis in this subforum could explain?

I get that your post is coming from a personal place of frustration and unhappiness, but I really hate to see posts like this.  It comes off as deflecting, which is, for many, tacit admission that there is a groomer problem in the gay community.  I've stated several times, I've fought tooth and nail against the gay=pedophile trope on this board for well over a decade, long before you started posting in here.  The movement is not helping that cause at the moment.  There are too many people attempting to excuse or mitigate unacceptable conduct as they view it as an attack on everyone in the community.  Those who do speak up from a position of concern, such as Fred Sargeant, are viscously attacked.  The LGBT community needs to do a far better job of policing/calling out their own as fringe elements are constantly giving their detractors ammunition to use against them.  I'm literally seeing decades of progress being eroded due to a failure in this regard, and it bothers me deeply.


As for the Catholic Church, they've been lambasted over this issue for years.  I would take issue to the frequency you cite, especially as it has no proof attached, but there is literally not one defender of the Church's conduct in this regard on this board.  Your post, while well intentioned and from a place of sincerity, misses the mark.

[*pally*]

(06-29-2023, 03:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get that your post is coming from a personal place of frustration and unhappiness, but I really hate to see posts like this.  It comes off as deflecting, which is, for many, tacit admission that there is a groomer problem in the gay community.  I've stated several times, I've fought tooth and nail against the gay=pedophile trope on this board for well over a decade, long before you started posting in here.  The movement is not helping that cause at the moment.  There are too many people attempting to excuse or mitigate unacceptable conduct as they view it as an attack on everyone in the community.  Those who do speak up from a position of concern, such as Fred Sargeant, are viscously attacked.  The LGBT community needs to do a far better job of policing/calling out their own as fringe elements are constantly giving their detractors ammunition to use against them.  I'm literally seeing decades of progress being eroded due to a failure in this regard, and it bothers me deeply.


As for the Catholic Church, they've been lambasted over this issue for years.  I would take issue to the frequency you cite, especially as it has no proof attached, but there is literally not one defender of the Church's conduct in this regard on this board.  Your post, while well intentioned and from a place of sincerity, misses the mark.

This is an age-old argument concerning all marginalized communities fighting for equal rights.  Do you be a "good" minority so as not to upset the majority and work quietly within the mainstream to get ahead or do you scream loud and proud from the trees that you are here?

you had conventional abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison vs John Brown
you had Susan B Anthony & Elizabeth Cady Staton vs Alice Paul and Ida B Wells
MLK vs Malcolm X
Cleve Jones vs Larry Kramer

Conventional guys want to sway the world over to their viewpoint.  Radicals want to upset the apple cart.

Success comes from the efforts of both sides.

[BengalYankee]

(06-29-2023, 01:32 PM)Nately120 Wrote: This is what passed for wholesome family entertainment in my day.

That's you and your wholesome family entertainment day, to each his own. 

This is mine ...  .... excluding the family...

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-29-2023, 04:13 PM)pally Wrote: This is an age-old argument concerning all marginalized communities fighting for equal rights.  Do you be a "good" minority so as not to upset the majority and work quietly within the mainstream to get ahead or do you scream loud and proud from the trees that you are here?

you had conventional abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison vs John Brown
you had Susan B Anthony & Elizabeth Cady Staton vs Alice Paul and Ida B Wells
MLK vs Malcolm X
Cleve Jones vs Larry Kramer

Conventional guys want to sway the world over to their viewpoint.  Radicals want to upset the apple cart.

Success comes from the efforts of both sides.

I would argue that the LGBT community is far from marginalized in most of the country.  In fact, they're literally immune from any criticism or you risk being labeled a pariah.  At the basic level, you're not addressing my point at all, simply saying that this happens all the time.  Your Malcolm X example is interesting, especially considering why he was killed and by whom.

But keep on the current tack and see how it works out for you.  I see it as counter-productive, you don't.  I highly doubt your position will be vindicated in time, you clearly feel differently.

[*pally*]

(06-29-2023, 04:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I would argue that the LGBT community is far from marginalized in most of the country.  In fact, they're literally immune from any criticism or you risk being labeled a pariah.  At the basic level, you're not addressing my point at all, simply saying that this happens all the time.  Your Malcolm X example is interesting, especially considering why he was killed and by whom.

But keep on the current tack and see how it works out for you.  I see it as counter-productive, you don't.  I highly doubt your position will be vindicated in time, you clearly feel differently.

everyone has different viewpoints on how to do things.  As I said, it often takes a combination of the mainstream and the radical to see movement. Time will tell in this case.  

[Lucidus]

(06-29-2023, 03:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get that your post is coming from a personal place of frustration and unhappiness, but I really hate to see posts like this.  It comes off as deflecting, which is, for many, tacit admission that there is a groomer problem in the gay community.  I've stated several times, I've fought tooth and nail against the gay=pedophile trope on this board for well over a decade, long before you started posting in here.  The movement is not helping that cause at the moment.  There are too many people attempting to excuse or mitigate unacceptable conduct as they view it as an attack on everyone in the community.  Those who do speak up from a position of concern, such as Fred Sargeant, are viscously attacked.  The LGBT community needs to do a far better job of policing/calling out their own as fringe elements are constantly giving their detractors ammunition to use against them.  I'm literally seeing decades of progress being eroded due to a failure in this regard, and it bothers me deeply.


As for the Catholic Church, they've been lambasted over this issue for years.  I would take issue to the frequency you cite, especially as it has no proof attached, but there is literally not one defender of the Church's conduct in this regard on this board.  Your post, while well intentioned and from a place of sincerity, misses the mark.

It's neither a deflection nor a tacit admission. Quite the opposite in fact. The point is to demonstrate that the drag / transgender opposition isn't actually concerned with grooming, targeting, etc., because they don't actually go after the environments where it's demonstrably prevalent, which illuminates - to an alarming degree - the concern for children is but a cloak to disguise their hatred, bigotry an ignorance. 

When I refer to clergy, it's not simply the Catholic Church. Examples of Protestant clergy members preying on and abusing children can unfortunately be found daily, and are in no short supply. Yet, there is no outrage, protest or panic demonstrated by same who do so in regards to the drag / transgender communities. 

You speak of decades of progress being eroded where it concerns the LGBTQIA+ community, but there are people, groups and political movements actively working to stifle and revert that progress. When a community finds themselves under this type of attack, that very progress finds itself in danger. While members of the community may occasionally say or do things that are counterproductive; that behavior - generally speaking - is a direct result of the fear, anger and frustration they feel from being constantly accused, demeaned and threatened. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-29-2023, 05:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It's neither a deflection nor a tacit admission. Quite the opposite in fact.

Ugh, I acknowledged as much in my actual post.  I said it can easily be perceived as such.  Seriously, I went to great pains to make this point

Quote:The point is to demonstrate that the drag / transgender opposition isn't actually concerned with grooming, targeting, etc., because they don't actually go after the environments where it's demonstrably prevalent, which illuminates - to an alarming degree - the concern for children is but a cloak to disguise their hatred, bigotry an ignorance. 

No, it's not just that.  It's the pushing of it in elementary school.  It's the efforts to hide things from parents.  You yourself made the argument in another thread that schools have/had to step up because parents historically do such a poor job in this area.  Until you, and others, grasp that this is not about homophobia for most people you'll continue to be upset and frustrated.  Again, and I have said this I don't know how many times, there are absolutely homophobes present in this movement.  But they are nowhere near as prevalent as you'd like to think.

Quote:When I refer to clergy, it's not simply the Catholic Church. Examples of Protestant clergy members preying on and abusing children can unfortunately be found daily, and are in no short supply. Yet, there is no outrage, protest or panic demonstrated by same who do so in regards to the drag / transgender communities. 

Yes, and as I pointed out earlier, it happened in the Boy Scouts as well.  But you're completely living in an alternate reality if you think there was/is no outrage at those institutions.  Also, you again made the claim this happens "daily".  If you're going to make such a claim you're going to need to provide evidence, because I'm calling bullshit on it being a daily occurrence.

Quote:You speak of decades of progress being eroded where it concerns the LGBTQIA+ community, but there are people, groups and political movements actively working to stifle and revert that progress.

Very true, and unfortunately there are many in the LGBT movement who are giving them plenty of assistance in that regard.

Quote:When a community finds themselves under this type of attack, that very progress finds itself in danger. While members of the community may occasionally say or do things that are counterproductive; that behavior - generally speaking - is a direct result of the fear, anger and frustration they feel from being constantly accused, demeaned and threatened. 

No, you can't explain all of this away with a fear response.  You can't explain away elementary kids being taught things best left to their parents and a much older age.  You can't use it to explain attempts to hide things from parents.  The movement stepped over a line and until that is acknowledged and reversed you're going to see this pushback grow and grow.  All the while you'll be telling yourself it's just homophobia while ignoring the bedrock reason for most people.

Like I said, it's sad and it makes me unhappy.  And you just don't see it.

[*pally*]

(06-29-2023, 07:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, you can't explain all of this away with a fear response.  You can't explain away elementary kids being taught things best left to their parents and a much older age.  You can't use it to explain attempts to hide things from parents.  The movement stepped over a line and until that is acknowledged and reversed you're going to see this pushback grow and grow.  All the while you'll be telling yourself it's just homophobia while ignoring the bedrock reason for most people.

Like I said, it's sad and it makes me unhappy.  And you just don't see it.

What things are actually being taught to elementary kids that you believe should be left to parents?

So you are a teacher and a child tells you that they are gay.  They tell you that their parents are strong conservative Christians and they are afraid of their parent's reactions. They are genuinely afraid of being hurt or thrown out of their home.  What do you tell the child?  Who are you, as a teacher, supposed to protect, the child or the parent? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 02:01 PM)pally Wrote: What things are actually being taught to elementary kids that you believe should be left to parents?

Uhm, sex related topics.  You know exactly what we've been talking about in multiple threads.

Quote:So you are a teacher and a child tells you that they are gay.  They tell you that their parents are strong conservative Christians and they are afraid of their parent's reactions. They are genuinely afraid of being hurt or thrown out of their home.  What do you tell the child?  Who are you, as a teacher, supposed to protect, the child or the parent? 

In elementary school?  Unless a child reports abuse, which you are then mandated to report, you should not be having personal conversations with children about sensitive subjects. 

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-30-2023, 02:12 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Uhm, sex related topics.  You know exactly what we've been talking about in multiple threads.


In elementary school?  Unless a child reports abuse, which you are then mandated to report, you should not be having personal conversations with children about sensitive subjects.

So if a 10 year old who loves their teacher and confides deeply in them, goes up to said teacher and has the above conversation, as a teacher, you're REALLY going to say to the student, "that's really too bad, Timmy. I can't discuss this with you, you will need to speak to this police officer/social worker/whoemever that you've never met before and need to spill your guts to them instead of me, whom you trust?"

(of course the conversation wouldn't go that way, but you know what I mean)

THAT'S definitely not doing your job properly.

[BengalYankee]

(06-30-2023, 02:19 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: So if a 10 year old who loves their teacher and confides deeply in them, goes up to said teacher and has the above conversation, as a teacher, you're REALLY going to say to the student, "that's really too bad, Timmy. I can't discuss this with you, you will need to speak to this police officer/social worker/whoemever that you've never met before and need to spill your guts to them instead of me, whom you trust?"

(of course the conversation wouldn't go that way, but you know what I mean)

THAT'S definitely not doing your job properly.

Unless a child reports abuse.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 02:19 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: So if a 10 year old who loves their teacher and confides deeply in them, goes up to said teacher and has the above conversation, as a teacher, you're REALLY going to say to the student, "that's really too bad, Timmy. I can't discuss this with you, you will need to speak to this police officer/social worker/whoemever that you've never met before and need to spill your guts to them instead of me, whom you trust?"

(of course the conversation wouldn't go that way, but you know what I mean)

THAT'S definitely not doing your job properly.

In that scenario you could refer the child to the school counselor, a person who is actually trained to address sensitive topics.  If a person who trusts you came up and asked for legal advice would you address it with them or refer them to an attorney who actually knows what they're talking about?

I get your point, there's not an easy answer here.  A child could come up and tell you about abuse in the home and beg you not to say anything.  But you're required by law to report said abuse to CPS, DCFS or the equivalent.  Knowing the limits of your position is rather important and not following that can often create much more harm.  Unintentional harm, but harm nonetheless.

[*pally*]

(06-30-2023, 02:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In that scenario you could refer the child to the school counselor, a person who is actually trained to address sensitive topics.  If a person who trusts you came up and asked for legal advice would you address it with them or refer them to an attorney who actually knows what they're talking about?

I get your point, there's not an easy answer here.  A child could come up and tell you about abuse in the home and beg you not to say anything.  But you're required by law to report said abuse to CPS, DCFS or the equivalent.  Knowing the limits of your position is rather important and not following that can often create much more harm.  Unintentional harm, but harm nonetheless.

and in some states, like Florida, teachers are mandated to report to the parents the original conversation and the counselor is supposed to tell the parents about their conversations as well

Exactly, what "sex stuff" that is currently being discussed in schools should be banned?  It's easy to stay vague...what specifically is happening in schools.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 02:42 PM)pally Wrote: and in some states, like Florida, teachers are mandated to report to the parents the original conversation and the counselor is supposed to tell the parents about their conversations as well

I'd need to see specifics before commenting further.

Quote:Exactly, what "sex stuff" that is currently being discussed in schools should be banned?  It's easy to stay vague...what specifically is happening in schools.

Seriously?  Do you not have internet access?  

https://www.foxnews.com/media/wisconsin-parents-outraged-inappropriate-sex-education-curriculum-elementary-schools-really-bad


Any sexual topic with elementary school kids is over the line.  Point blank, it is the responsibility of parents to have these discussions with their children.  If you want to have a lesson on a "bad touch" that's fine.  But teaching children about gender identity, homosexuality and other such topics is introducing a lot that children are likely not ready for.  Even if they are ready, it's the responsibility of the parents.

Which begs the question, why are you so pro children being taught sex in elementary school?  I'm not being accusatory here, but it seems like a very odd hill on which to plant your flag.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(06-30-2023, 02:26 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Unless a child reports abuse.

(06-30-2023, 02:27 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: In that scenario you could refer the child to the school counselor, a person who is actually trained to address sensitive topics.  If a person who trusts you came up and asked for legal advice would you address it with them or refer them to an attorney who actually knows what they're talking about?

I get your point, there's not an easy answer here.  A child could come up and tell you about abuse in the home and beg you not to say anything.  But you're required by law to report said abuse to CPS, DCFS or the equivalent.  Knowing the limits of your position is rather important and not following that can often create much more harm.  Unintentional harm, but harm nonetheless.

I agree about the abuse part: I absolutely feel that the CORRECT person should speak to the child in a situation like this, but for a teacher to be completely hands off if they have a strong bond with the child, it doesn't make sense.

It's a very grey area.

Despite the legal advice example being a bit more black and white, because there's the law and there's breaking the law: defined and precise... the law should not be interpreted by non-practitioners, so I agree with you on that. Also, because legal ramifications are at stake, it's a bit irresponsible for someone to give legal advice in a case like that: with the example of the child above, a lot of it is human emotion and feelings-based, something teachers are also trained to deal with in the classroom.

All I know is that if I ever had issues as a kid, outside of my parents, my teacher would've been the first person I'd have gone to in every single situation, point blank.

[*Nately120*]

(06-30-2023, 03:53 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: All I know is that if I ever had issues as a kid, outside of my parents, my teacher would've been the first person I'd have gone to in every single situation, point blank.

When I was a kid we were told that teachers were one of the go-to sources of help if someone was being all pervy towards you, now we tell kids that teachers are the ones systematically trained to be pervs towards kids.  Of course I went to a catholic school, so we were already told to tell our problems to the nearest sex offenders and/or sex offender enablers, but still...for normal society this has got to be a real switcheroo. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(06-30-2023, 03:53 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I agree about the abuse part: I absolutely feel that the CORRECT person should speak to the child in a situation like this, but for a teacher to be completely hands off if they have a strong bond with the child, it doesn't make sense.

It's a very grey area.

It is indeed.  But a teacher doesn't know everything about their students.  There could be mental health issues or other things going on that the teacher has no idea exist.  Always better to err on the side of caution in my experience.   You could end up causing a lot of harm with nothing but good intentions.

Quote:Despite the legal advice example being a bit more black and white, because there's the law and there's breaking the law: defined and precise... the law should not be interpreted by non-practitioners, so I agree with you on that. Also, because legal ramifications are at stake, it's a bit irresponsible for someone to give legal advice in a case like that: with the example of the child above, a lot of it is human emotion and feelings-based, something teachers are also trained to deal with in the classroom.

True, it is far from a perfect analogy.  But we both acknowledge the importance of professional expertise.

Quote:All I know is that if I ever had issues as a kid, outside of my parents, my teacher would've been the first person I'd have gone to in every single situation, point blank.

I only had two elementary teachers I liked, 2nd and 5th grade.  My fourth grade teacher, Mrs. Blood (I am not shitting you, that was how it was pronounced, not sure on spelling) was one of the worst people I've met in my life.  I can't see going to any of them with a huge problem though.  But my parents were both rock solid, so I probably lack perspective in that regard.

[Dill]

(06-29-2023, 05:16 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It's neither a deflection nor a tacit admission. Quite the opposite in fact. The point is to demonstrate that the drag / transgender opposition isn't actually concerned with grooming, targeting, etc., because they don't actually go after the environments where it's demonstrably prevalent, which illuminates - to an alarming degree - the concern for children is but a cloak to disguise their hatred, bigotry an ignorance. 

When I refer to clergy, it's not simply the Catholic Church. Examples of Protestant clergy members preying on and abusing children can unfortunately be found daily, and are in no short supply. Yet, there is no outrage, protest or panic demonstrated by same who do so in regards to the drag / transgender communities. 

You speak of decades of progress being eroded where it concerns the LGBTQIA+ community, but there are people, groups and political movements actively working to stifle and revert that progress. When a community finds themselves under this type of attack, that very progress finds itself in danger. While members of the community may occasionally say or do things that are counterproductive; that behavior - generally speaking - is a direct result of the fear, anger and frustration they feel from being constantly accused, demeaned and threatened. 

The first bolded is the point I understood you to be making all along.

You are placing the drive to gin up anger at trans people and convert that energy to elections and policy 

in a larger context which reveals how selective that drive is. 

When priests or ministers abuse children, it's merely the actions of individuals independent of their Christian identity. 

"They're coming for your children" won't mass voters behind you if "they"  are the Catholic/Protestant ministry, or Christianity as a "lifestyle.".

As for the second bolded, thanks for keeping your focus on the real problem. The LGBTQIA community, in the U.S. and elsewhere, is not stifled and persecuted because some in that group engage in flamboyant protest. As if that community has ALWAYS been accepted and now the problem is some bad eggs are spoiling it for everyone.  That wouldn't work unless misrepresentation and hatred were still the norm for at least a plurality of Americans. 

And I think you are quite correct about what produces "bad eggs"--the fear and hatred they still experience in personal transactions. There is, seriously, no transgender cabal after children and publicly announcing their intent. The inability to sort that out, or conscious desire NOT to, gives some indication of how far this community has to go for full acceptance. 
 

[Lucidus]

(06-29-2023, 07:24 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: No, it's not just that.  It's the pushing of it in elementary school.  It's the efforts to hide things from parents.  You yourself made the argument in another thread that schools have/had to step up because parents historically do such a poor job in this area.  Until you, and others, grasp that this is not about homophobia for most people you'll continue to be upset and frustrated.  Again, and I have said this I don't know how many times, there are absolutely homophobes present in this movement.  But they are nowhere near as prevalent as you'd like to think.

The frustration stems from the right - both voters and politicians - labeling every thing that is part of the LGBTQIA+ community in extremely derogatory ways, and that includes anyone or anything deemed as guilty by association; teachers, libraries, businesses, etc. In addition, they are actively wanting to ban books, curriculum, drag queen story hours and anything else they label as grooming, targeting or pedophilic. 

When you state the prevalence is not as great as I think, I must respectfully disagree. As some who is a member of said community and has been an activist for over three decades, the prevalence is very real and identifiable at the moment. Whether it's right wing talking heads, social media, politicians, religious organizations or very loud and vitriolic segments of the voter base -- the current environment has become saturated with LGBTQIA+ hated and utterly disgusting rhetoric. 

It's much easier to claim the issues aren't that prevalent when you are not the direct target of such nonsense. 

Quote:Yes, and as I pointed out earlier, it happened in the Boy Scouts as well.  But you're completely living in an alternate reality if you think there was/is no outrage at those institutions.  Also, you again made the claim this happens "daily".  If you're going to make such a claim you're going to need to provide evidence, because I'm calling bullshit on it being a daily occurrence.

The public outrage over the Boy Scouts scandal paled in an embarrassing fashion to that of the drag queen / transgender outrage we are currently experiencing.- and was almost nonexistent on the right. In fact, a search of this very subforum returns scant results on the subject. Odd, considering the whole protect the children narrative being used as rationale by some members in terms of their current outrage.

As to examples of clergy members being accused, charged or convicted on a daily basis; this is just the first page from the past week. 

https://www.fox7austin.com/news/round-rock-pastor-child-pornography-charge-guilty-plea-david-walther
https://newschannel9.com/news/local/tennessee-mother-teacher-and-pastor-charged-in-failing-to-report-childs-alleged-sex-abuse-crime-alert-news
https://www.dailyherald.com/news/20230628/child-porn-suspect-was-pastor-of-geneva-area-church
https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/local/former-manchester-pastor-found-guilty-of-abusing-10-month-old-child/3057756/
https://eu.timesrecordnews.com/story/news/2023/06/27/wichita-falls-pastor-accused-of-indecency-with-a-child/70362267007/

We can keep going back and providing examples of this "bullshit" for as long as you like. 

Quote:No, you can't explain all of this away with a fear response.  You can't explain away elementary kids being taught things best left to their parents and a much older age.  You can't use it to explain attempts to hide things from parents.  The movement stepped over a line and until that is acknowledged and reversed you're going to see this pushback grow and grow.  All the while you'll be telling yourself it's just homophobia while ignoring the bedrock reason for most people.

What exactly are kids being taught that you find objectionable. Specific examples would be appreciated.