Ephesians 6:5

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

[NATI BENGALS]

Lolz. I’ve never read the Bible. Never will. But geeze.

[GMDino]

(06-21-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

I mean, obviously, it is because they weren't slaves anymore.  

[*Nately120*]

I actually have that verse written on the wall of my sex dungeon.

[*bfine32*]

(06-21-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

Because Paul understood their plight as a byproduct of the secular world and assured them it was only temporary. At the end he assures them that the reward will be great. 

[Benton]

(06-21-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

Because He also told masters to take care of their slaves.

Which, for context, slaves in that region/time period weren't treated like later colonial slaves. Slaves he's referencing (outside of female concubines) were more similar to our minimum wage workers. They were counted as part of a family for tax purposes and often working off an impossible debt while being taken care of. Having quality slaves was a status symbol. Injuring a slave was against the law, and killing one had significant penalties (which varied considering time periods, regions and interpretations). Not the same penalties as killing a free man, but that's pretty similar to our approach to how we handle the systemic poor here, too.

[fredtoast]

(06-21-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

Why?

Just read the very next verse

"Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart."




See, Christians are like slaves.  They have to do whatever Christ says, or else.  Thus the "fear and trembling"

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-21-2020, 11:26 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Because Paul understood their plight as a byproduct of the secular world and assured them it was only temporary. At the end he assures them that the reward will be great. 

So why didn’t the Christian god suggests something like, “Don’t keep slaves.” Instead of, “Slaves, obey your human masters.”

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-21-2020, 12:12 PM)Benton Wrote: Because He also told masters to take care of their slaves.

Which, for context, slaves in that region/time period weren't treated like later colonial slaves. Slaves he's referencing (outside of female concubines) were more similar to our minimum wage workers. They were counted as part of a family for tax purposes and often working off an impossible debt while being taken care of. Having quality slaves was a status symbol. Injuring a slave was against the law, and killing one had significant penalties (which varied considering time periods, regions and interpretations). Not the same penalties as killing a free man, but that's pretty similar to our approach to how we handle the systemic poor here, too.

It was okay to beat their slaves as long as they didn’t die and were able to stand within a day or two because they were property.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies under his abuse, the owner must be punished. However, if the slave can stand up after a day or two, the owner should not be punished because he is his [owner's] property. -Exodus 21:20-21

[*bfine32*]

(06-21-2020, 01:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So why didn’t the Christian god suggests something like, “Don’t keep slaves.”  Instead of, “Slaves, obey your human masters.”

Because he knows the way of a secular world and was providing counsel to the slave not the owner.

[Benton]

(06-21-2020, 01:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: It was okay to beat their slaves as long as they didn’t die and were able to stand within a day or two because they were property.

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod, and the slave dies under his abuse, the owner must be punished.  However, if the slave can stand up after a day or two, the owner should not be punished because he is his [owner's] property. -Exodus 21:20-21

And you could stone a woman for stepping out on you or sell your kid into slavery to make a debt good.

It's hard to compare societal norms from 2000 years ago to today.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-21-2020, 02:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Because he knows the way of a secular world and was providing counsel to the slave not the owner.

Ephesians also provides counsel to the slave owner. So the question still stands, why didn’t the Christian god tell slave owners not to own slaves rather than tell slaves to obey their owners.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(06-21-2020, 02:19 PM)Benton Wrote: And you could stone a woman for stepping out on you or sell your kid into slavery to make a debt good.

It's hard to compare societal norms from 2000 years ago to today.

I’m not comparing societal norms. I’m comparing the Christian god’s instruction. God instructed murder was a sin. Why not slavery? Societal norms don’t dictate right and wrong to god. God dictates right and wrong to society.

[GMDino]

(06-21-2020, 02:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m not comparing societal norms. I’m comparing the Christian god’s instruction. God instructed murder was a sin. Why not slavery?  Societal norms don’t dictate right and wrong to god. God dictates right and wrong to society.

It will forever be the bugaboo of the Christian.

God is all knowing and all loving but he knows man is fallible so he told us what we *should* do and then gave us rules for living as the hairless apes we are.

So man can justify slavery, war, stealing, whatever with the old "well, we're trying" line.

Because you are 100% right that the men who were guided by God to wrote the bible COULD have written that all slavery is bad and all people should be treated equally but instead for SOME reason wrote a list of rule that seem to fit the power structure of the time instead.

[Dill]

(06-21-2020, 12:12 PM)Benton Wrote: Because He also told masters to take care of their slaves.

Which, for context, slaves in that region/time period weren't treated like later colonial slaves. Slaves he's referencing (outside of female concubines) were more similar to our minimum wage workers. They were counted as part of a family for tax purposes and often working off an impossible debt while being taken care of. Having quality slaves was a status symbol. Injuring a slave was against the law, and killing one had significant penalties (which varied considering time periods, regions and interpretations). Not the same penalties as killing a free man, but that's pretty similar to our approach to how we handle the systemic poor here, too.

Injuring or killing someone else's slave was against Roman law in the 1st century, for sure. But I don't think injuring or killing one's own was.*  You seem to be describing small household slavery, where it would not make economic sense to kill a slave. For those working the large estates outside Rome and in the provinces, killing recalcitrant slaves to maintain discipline was not uncommon at all. Antoninus Pius (d. 161 CE) passed a law making it illegal to kill slaves without cause, but the punishment was something like a fine for cost--same penalty as if a master had killed someone else's slave. No penalty if a slave dies while being beaten; and no investigation in such cases.  He did recommend that abused slaves flee to State-owned property, where charges of their abuse could be investigated. This probably does not indicate concern for the slave's well being, but more in the interest of in preserving total economic wealth of the Empire.

So far as I know, it is not until after Constantine (4th century) that Romans began incorporating Christian precepts into Roman law, giving slaves a smidgen of Persona or legally recognized power to will acts, and a bit of legal protection (of questionable enforcement). That sets the stage for legal developments to the point that killing a slave could be defined as murder in Christian and subsequently Muslim territories.

*In De Ira (On Anger), Seneca tells a story about Caesar Augustus intervening to prevent a rich man, with whom he was dining, from killing a young slave who had broken a crystal goblet. Augustus, though, was apparently contravening the law when he did this. And his motivation seems to have been in part the excessive and exotic cruelty of the punishment--the boy was to be fed to eels in the rich man's eel pond.  Augustus ordered all the man's crystal broken and the pond filled in, for good measure.

[Dill]

(06-21-2020, 01:27 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So why didn’t the Christian god suggests something like, “Don’t keep slaves.”  Instead of, “Slaves, obey your human masters.”

Because it was ok to keep slaves.

What the Christian God, or any god, says depends upon the mores and values of the people who speak for him/her.

As those mores and values change, so will what god said or "really" meant.

Paul was still 1500 years before the fledgling conception of universal liberal human rights appears in Europe, so he's not going to be bound by something not yet invented.

Also, the early Christian community was not about changing this world, but about preparing oneself for the imminent return of Jesus, who would then take care of things himself, put the last first, etc. If you are trying to spread the word of your new religion under these circumstances, it would not make sense to tick off the authorities and get your sect declared "seditious," hindering your power to move about and preach.

[Benton]

(06-21-2020, 02:45 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I’m not comparing societal norms. I’m comparing the Christian god’s instruction. God instructed murder was a sin. Why not slavery?  Societal norms don’t dictate right and wrong to god. God dictates right and wrong to society.

Oh if you're talking bigger picture, He did. The NT boils down to one thing: love each other. It took less than a paragraph. The rest of it was how to accomplish that in the society at the time so that going forward they could accomplish one command.

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-21-2020, 01:31 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Slaves, obey your human masters with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as you would Christ.


Why would the Christian god instruct slaves to obey their masters?

That's a loving God we have there.

BS ...

[Arturo Bandini]

(06-21-2020, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why?

Just read the very next verse

"Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but like slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart."




See, Christians are like slaves.  They have to do whatever Christ says, or else.  Thus the "fear and trembling"

What's the point of fearing God ? You fear your enemies right ? 

Dude is crazy. He made things he hates. 

Poor him.

I'm noone's slave.

[*michaelsean*]

This is Paul writing and giving instructions to slaves. Everyone thinks Jesus came to change the world. To make it a better place. That ain’t his primary purpose. His primary purpose was to save the individual. Although my thoughts are more along the line of He came to advance the individual. There is no saving necessary. But that’s a whole nother topic.