Europe and Muslim Immigrants

[Rotobeast]

(03-14-2016, 02:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's a fair proposal that would be a good suggestion for the immigration thread. If you catch someone here illegally but they are productive members of society, give a fine as opposed to deporting.

In lieu of fines, we could turn some into Confidential Informants to uncover those in nefarious activities ?

Yeah, we'll get into some McCarthy-esque situations, but could be beneficial in the long run.

[Belsnickel]

(03-14-2016, 03:13 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: In lieu of fines, we could turn some into Confidential Informants to uncover those in nefarious activities ?

Yeah, we'll get into some McCarthy-esque situations, but could be beneficial in the long run.

The difficulty in that is a lot of immigrants comes from areas where the police are obscenely corrupt, and so getting them to actually trust that authority would be extremely difficult.

[Rotobeast]

(03-14-2016, 03:20 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: The difficulty in that is a lot of immigrants comes from areas where the police are obscenely corrupt, and so getting them to actually trust that authority would be extremely difficult.

Understandable, hence the incentive to avoid the fine.
Just an option.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 02:55 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: That's a fair proposal that would be a good suggestion for the immigration thread. If you catch someone here illegally but they are productive members of society, give a fine as opposed to deporting.

Define Productive.

[GMDino]

(03-14-2016, 03:59 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Define Productive.

Working?  No criminal record?

Now if their employer is paying them "under the table" we should fine them too.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 04:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: Working?  No criminal record?

Now if their employer is paying them "under the table" we should fine them too.

Working? How are they going to work?
Borrow someone's SSN?

[Benton]

(03-14-2016, 04:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Working? How are they going to work?
Borrow someone's SSN?

Worker visa, getting paid cash, not putting a SS# and having no one check it. The bulk of these workers aren't applying for bank manager jobs or school district superintendents. Immigrants who com here with higher training (nurses, lawyers, teachers, etc) typically start the path to citizenship early.

[GMDino]

(03-14-2016, 04:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Working? How are they going to work?
Borrow someone's SSN?

That's why I added the "paying them under the table" bit.

From what I have gathered there are many, many here working.  Buying things...paying taxes on those things.  It would be great if we could get them above board and be fully contributing members of society.

[BmorePat87]

(03-14-2016, 03:59 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Define Productive.

I did earlier. Working, paying taxes, not committing crime. 

[CKwi88]

(03-13-2016, 10:53 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yea, I don't really see a family working hard, contributing to the economy, and paying taxes as criminals because they don't have documentation.

I should know better than to speak in absolutes.

Many of them aren't criminals even by the definition of the law. Being in the USA illegally is not a crime. The 30-40% of illegal immigrants here are on overstayed visas, and that's a civil infraction. So unless we're labeling all people with a civil infraction as a criminal...but that actually wouldn't surprise me around here.

Another thing is that criminal courts don't give a rat's ass about a person's immigration status. I've worked with many people that admitted in open court that they're an illegal and nothing happens to them. Immigration court is entirely separate. 


Edit: I just realized that this was the "Immigrants Suck" thread. Maybe this line of conversation could get moved to one of our 2 open immigrant threads? Now that we have this thread (hallelujah) I don't want to give any incentive for a new thread about a Libyan man jaywalking while looking at a white woman in east fumbuck Bulgaria because this thread turned into illegal stateside immigration.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 04:35 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I did earlier. Working, paying taxes, not committing crime. 

Must not have seen it prior to threads being combined, I decided not to go back more than a couple of pages because it's too many different specific topics to talk about. However, Europe's immigration problem is not the same as our immigration problem.

False Personification of a US Citizen
Fraud and False Statements
SS Fraud

All Felonies.

Just because an Illegal Alien isn't a 'voilent' threat, doesn't mean that they aren't a threat to rule of the Law, taxpayers, and society in general.

It's a shame that the prerequisite for immigration enforcement is for Americans to be victimized first.

You all do understand that in most cases, ICE will deport individuals based on their legal status and not both filing identity fraud or perjury charges against them. Fraud has to be used for them to get a job.

Sure that saves us money and time deporting them like that since we won't need to detain them for a trial, and it creates the myth of "law abiding Illegals" that you all seem to think actually exist.

So tell me how can an Illegal alien work, pay taxes and not commit a crime?

[GMDino]

(03-14-2016, 05:36 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Must not have seen it prior to threads being combined, I decided not to go back more than a couple of pages because it's too many different specific topics to talk about. However, Europe's immigration problem is not the same as our immigration problem.

False Personification of a US Citizen
Fraud and False Statements
SS Fraud

All Felonies.

Just because an Illegal Alien isn't a 'voilent' threat, doesn't mean that they aren't a threat to rule of the Law, taxpayers, and society in general.

It's a shame that the prerequisite for immigration enforcement is for Americans to be victimized first.

You all do understand that in most cases, ICE will deport individuals based on their legal status and not both filing identity fraud or perjury charges against them. Fraud has to be used for them to get a job.

Sure that saves us money and time deporting them like that since we won't need to detain them for a trial, and it creates the myth of "law abiding Illegals" that you all seem to think actually exist.

So tell me how can an Illegal alien work, pay taxes and not commit a crime?

I think we all agree that if they are here illegally they are criminals.

Speeders are criminals.  So are murderers.  We don't treat them the same.

Heck we have different punishments for people who kill depending on the circumstances.

So I am sure we can come with lots of different scenarios where some is here illegally but has never been in trouble and has worked and paid taxes (sales tax for example) that we could use to get them on the path to citizenship without simply yelling "EVIL"* and shipping them home.










* I wrote "criminal" but then I thought of Mermaid Man running around yelling Evil so I went with that.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 07:07 PM)GMDino Wrote: I think we all agree that if they are here illegally they are criminals.

Speeders are criminals.  So are murderers.  We don't treat them the same.

Heck we have different punishments for people who kill depending on the circumstances.

So I am sure we can come with lots of different scenarios where some is here illegally but has never been in trouble and has worked and paid taxes (sales tax for example) that we could use to get them on the path to citizenship without simply yelling "EVIL"* and shipping them home.




* I wrote "criminal" but then I thought of Mermaid Man running around yelling Evil so I went with that.

You simply don't get it.

Every Illegal that works and collects a Paycheck and pays taxes, has to have a valid SSN, that same SSN in many cases actually belongs to a Real USC somewhere.

I know elderly's that keep getting their SS checks lowered because the US Gov thinks that they are out there working... is that fair to them? What happens if the little lady can't pay her bills, she dies. Should that be considered murder?

Is it fair to you when you file your taxes and the IRS comes back and says, what about that other 24k you earned? Where's the taxes on that? Next thing you know, IRS has frozen your assets.

How about when you go to apply for a loan to get a house or even a credit card and they deny you cause you have cc's already open in your name that are maxed out??

How about when you are ready to retire and they come back and say, you're still working in Alaska pal and have been for the last 30 years.
http://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/apr7-identity-theft

So remember that next time you say "law abiding Illegal alien".

[GMDino]

(03-14-2016, 07:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You simply don't get it.

Every Illegal that works and collects a Paycheck and pays taxes, has to have a valid SSN, that same SSN in many cases actually belongs to a Real USC somewhere.

I know elderly's that keep getting their SS checks lowered because the US Gov thinks that they are out there working... is that fair to them? What happens if the little lady can't pay her bills, she dies. Should that be considered murder?

Is it fair to you when you file your taxes and the IRS comes back and says, what about that other 24k you earned? Where's the taxes on that? Next thing you know, IRS has frozen your assets.

How about when you go to apply for a loan to get a house or even a credit card and they deny you cause you have cc's already open in your name that are maxed out??

How about when you are ready to retire and they come back and say, you're still working in Alaska pal and have been for the last 30 years.
http://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/apr7-identity-theft

So remember that next time you say "law abiding Illegal alien".

Yes I understand that.

did you not see where I and others said they are probably working under the table.  No SSN.  No payroll taxes.  No SS taxes.

So we go after the company who is doing that too.  And then we get them a SSN and get them legal.

Get it?

[Benton]

(03-14-2016, 07:37 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: You simply don't get it.

Every Illegal that works and collects a Paycheck and pays taxes, has to have a valid SSN, that same SSN in many cases actually belongs to a Real USC somewhere.

I know elderly's that keep getting their SS checks lowered because the US Gov thinks that they are out there working... is that fair to them? What happens if the little lady can't pay her bills, she dies. Should that be considered murder?

Is it fair to you when you file your taxes and the IRS comes back and says, what about that other 24k you earned? Where's the taxes on that? Next thing you know, IRS has frozen your assets.

How about when you go to apply for a loan to get a house or even a credit card and they deny you cause you have cc's already open in your name that are maxed out??

How about when you are ready to retire and they come back and say, you're still working in Alaska pal and have been for the last 30 years.
http://oig.ssa.gov/audits-and-investigations/investigations/apr7-identity-theft

So remember that next time you say "law abiding Illegal alien".

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Quote: Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.

"They are paying an estimated $15 billion a year into Social Security with no intention of ever collecting benefits," Stephen Goss, chief actuary of the SSA told CNNMoney. "Without the estimated 3.1 million undocumented immigrants paying into the system, Social Security would have entered persistent shortfall of tax revenue to cover payouts starting in 2009," he said.

But as to the need for a SSN, mostly illegals work in cash businesses. Agriculture, service industry, etc. There's no need for a SSN if you're cutting tobacco or working weekends in a warehouse moving stuff around, and getting paid cash to do it.

[*bfine32*]

The whole thing is kind of ironic.

We got to have unemployment benefits because there is not enough jobs

We go to excuse illegal immigration because there is not enough workers.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 07:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes I understand that.

did you not see where I and others said they are probably working under the table.  No SSN.  No payroll taxes.  No SS taxes.

So we go after the company who is doing that too.  And then we get them a SSN and get them legal.

Get it?

How do you make them legal Trump? What's your plan?

(03-14-2016, 07:59 PM)Benton Wrote: http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid an eye-popping $100 billion into the fund over the past decade.


But as to the need for a SSN, mostly illegals work in cash businesses. Agriculture, service industry, etc. There's no need for a SSN if you're cutting tobacco or working weekends in a warehouse moving stuff around, and getting paid cash to do it.

That's rich, they put $100 billion back into the system over a 10 year period.. I think I did the math where Anchor Babies drain the Public School systems by $64.485 Billion annually. That's not including the cost of births, nor the SNAP we are giving to the babies family to keep them fed, nor the medical assistance for the USC.

I'd say what they pay in doesn't equate to what they use.

For those needed to help in the agriculture, there's a special VISA they can get. We don't need them here illegally.
Do it right and legal and I have no beef with anyone.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(03-14-2016, 07:59 PM)Benton Wrote: http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/immigration-myths/

by Maria Santana   @CNNMoney

Maria Santana..... Nope no bias there. She's only the NY Based anchor person for CNN Espanol.

Gee, not only that but I can easily do the math and Debunk 4 of her "so called 5 myths".

[GMDino]

(03-14-2016, 08:50 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: How do you make them legal Trump? What's your plan?

You have them get a work visa and you have them got through the proper steps to become a citizen.

And then you properly fund the mechanism that provides those services.

Anything else?

[BmorePat87]

(03-14-2016, 05:36 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: So tell me how can an Illegal alien work, pay taxes and not commit a crime?

The way millions do. They find a job, they use a fake Social Security Number (paying into the system and never being able to receive the benefits), and they don't commit crimes.