Faith

[WhoDeyWho]

(09-18-2015, 01:56 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: He's "responsible" for absolutely everything.
Has he told you personally that he isn't ?

He has never said a thing to me no.  In fact, I don't even know if he exists.  

Many of his believers would have you believe that we humans are responsible however.  For "sin" as well as many other things they find to be undesirable.  

[Rotobeast]

(09-18-2015, 02:09 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: He has never said a thing to me no.  In fact, I don't even know if he exists.  

Many of his believers would have you believe that we humans are responsible however.  For "sin" as well as many other things they find to be undesirable.  

I understand your thoughts.
I'm not as stubborn as some people.
In fact I"m rather open-minded about my religion.
I think it rather vain to assume that any of us has it all figured out.
I only felt the discussion seemed a little narrow without a small amount of responsibility given to humankind.
Without interjecting that, we enable the zealot's excuse of "It's all God's will and there's nothing you can do" defense.
I would feel terrible knowing I could have contributed to fortifying that, by remaining silent.

[WhoDeyWho]

(09-18-2015, 03:30 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I understand your thoughts.
I'm not as stubborn as some people.
In fact I"m rather open-minded about my religion.
I think it rather vain to assume that any of us has it all figured out.
I only felt the discussion seemed a little narrow without a small amount of responsibility given to humankind.
Without interjecting that, we enable the zealot's excuse of "It's all God's will and there's nothing you can do" defense.
I would feel terrible knowing I could have contributed to fortifying that, by remaining silent.

I'm just taking the attributes that Christians prescribe to their god and trying to make sense of them.  If he is who they say he is and has the attributes that they say he has, then it is silly to pretend like he isn't the cause and ultimate responsibility for any and everything that happens.  

They can't have their cake and eat it too.  Either he planned it to be this way, or he is a bystander whose plans have been sabotaged by humans.  

[*bfine32*]

(09-18-2015, 03:59 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I'm just taking the attributes that Christians prescribe to their god and trying to make sense of them.  If he is who they say he is and has the attributes that they say he has, then it is silly to pretend like he isn't the cause and ultimate responsibility for any and everything that happens.  

They can't have their cake and eat it too.  Either he planned it to be this way, or he is a bystander whose plans have been sabotaged by humans.  

Religious scholars have debated this point for centuries and there have been numerous theodicies. Someone that questions in the nature that you do might subscribe to the Process Theodicy. its themes are:

[*]•God is not omnipotent in the sense of being coercive. The divine has a power of persuasion rather than coercion. Process theologians interpret the classical doctrine of omnipotence as involving force, and suggest instead a forbearance in divine power. "Persuasion" in the causal sense means that God does not exert unilateral control.
 
•Reality is not made up of material substances that endure through time, but serially-ordered events, which are experiential in nature. These events have both a physical and mental aspect. All experience (male, female, atomic, and botanical) is important and contributes to the ongoing and interrelated process of reality.
 
•The universe is characterized by process and change carried out by the agents of free will. Self-determination characterizes everything in the universe, not just human beings. God cannot totally control any series of events or any individual, but God influences the creaturely exercise of this universal free will by offering possibilities. To say it another way, God has a will in everything, but not everything that occurs is God's will.
 
•God contains the universe but is not identical with it (panentheism, not pantheism or pandeism). Some also call this "theocosmocentrism" to emphasize that God has always been related to some world or another.
 
•Because God interacts with the changing universe, God is changeable (that is to say, God is affected by the actions that take place in the universe) over the course of time. However, the abstract elements of God (goodness, wisdom, etc.) remain eternally solid.

[Rotobeast]

(09-18-2015, 03:59 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I'm just taking the attributes that Christians prescribe to their god and trying to make sense of them.  If he is who they say he is and has the attributes that they say he has, then it is silly to pretend like he isn't the cause and ultimate responsibility for any and everything that happens.  

They can't have their cake and eat it too.  Either he planned it to be this way, or he is a bystander whose plans have been sabotaged by humans.  

I personally don't feel that God has EVERYTHING planned out.
I feel that He possibly gave us free will so he might provide plenty of entertainment.
One day we will all know, for sure.

[WhoDeyWho]

(09-18-2015, 04:40 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I personally don't feel that God has EVERYTHING planned out.
I feel that He possibly gave us free will so he might provide plenty of entertainment.
One day we will all know, for sure.

Do you believe he knows the future consequences of his choices?  Or does it come as a surprise to him?  If indeed he knows, what difference does "free will" make?  We can't act "freely" unless he puts us in a position to knowingly.

For example Hitler couldn't have killed all of those people if God didn't first create him knowing he would do exactly that.  

I guess in that since, I don't really see a distinction.   

[Rotobeast]

(09-18-2015, 06:02 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Do you believe he knows the future consequences of his choices?  Or does it come as a surprise to him?  If indeed he knows, what difference does "free will" make?  We can't act "freely" unless he puts us in a position to knowingly.

For example Hitler couldn't have killed all of those people if God didn't first create him knowing he would do exactly that.  

I guess in that since, I don't really see a distinction.   

Honestly, I just think He rolls the pinewood derby car over the edge and watches to see how we react.
We do have a bit to act "knowingly" on, as we have the 10 commandments.
I suppose it's possible He may steer us a certain direction, once in a while.
However, we may just be a series of science projects to Him.
Sorry, I'm just not one of the people that think everything is scripted out.
I have enjoyed your questions though.
They have provoked deep thought and reflection for me this evening.

[BigPapaKain]

I like the movie 'Dogma's take on it.

It's not important what you have faith in, just that you have faith.

That being said, I'm agnostic on good days. I honestly enjoy learning the teachings of all faiths. I think most would be happiest practicing Satanism, but I don't. I find practicing religion a waste of time as everything you do should be a representation of your beliefs.

[*Nately120*]

(09-18-2015, 04:40 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: One day we will all know, for sure.

I have to disagree with this, as well.  We know nothing about god or the pre-life or non-existence prior to our life, so what makes us so sure we will "know" anything once we cease to exist?  

[Rotobeast]

(09-20-2015, 11:25 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I have to disagree with this, as well.  We know nothing about god or the pre-life or non-existence prior to our life, so what makes us so sure we will "know" anything once we cease to exist?  

I merely meant that when you die, there's either afterlife, or there isn't.
I suppose if there was no afterlife,  you wouldn't "know" anything.
So I guess I see what you're saying in that respect.

[StLucieBengal]

(09-18-2015, 06:02 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Do you believe he knows the future consequences of his choices?  Or does it come as a surprise to him?  If indeed he knows, what difference does "free will" make?  We can't act "freely" unless he puts us in a position to knowingly.

For example Hitler couldn't have killed all of those people if God didn't first create him knowing he would do exactly that.  

I guess in that since, I don't really see a distinction.   

God doesn't deliver us from evil but he will walk us through evil.

[GodHatesBengals]

(09-20-2015, 12:58 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: God doesn't deliver us from evil but he will walk us through evil.

Is this on a magnet on your fridge or something?

[GMDino]

(09-20-2015, 02:53 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Is this on a magnet on your fridge or something?

Fridge?  Then they might have food that is bad for you tempting them!!!

[SteelCitySouth]

(09-20-2015, 12:58 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: God doesn't deliver us from evil but he will walk us through evil.

The bigger question though is...delivery or Digiorno?

[StLucieBengal]

(09-20-2015, 02:53 PM)GodHatesBengals Wrote: Is this on a magnet on your fridge or something?

No it was in our homily.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2015, 06:27 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: No it was in our homily.

Homily grits and shrimp. Mmmmm.

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2015, 03:08 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Homily grits and shrimp. Mmmmm.

Leviticus takes issue with one of those things!

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-21-2015, 03:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Leviticus takes issue with one of those things!

I just pick which parts of the Old Testament I'm going to follow or ignore based upon the situation without any consistency.

[Arturo Bandini]

The Light is not in a state of emotion but contemplation.

The difference is important.

When you study Alchemy. You have 3 things : sel / soufre / mercure ( salt / sulfur / mercury ). Body / Soul / Spirit

Your body is moved by soul ( emotions ) and it is analyzed by the Spirit.

Basically the Trinity is that : Son / Holy Spirit / Father -

But it is all One.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(09-20-2015, 12:58 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: God doesn't deliver us from evil but he will walk us through evil.

Who created evil?