Gov. Ralph Northam ‘deeply sorry’ after photo emerges from his 1984 yearbook...

[GMDino]

(02-04-2019, 12:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have to look at how a person is living his life now to judge him.

Seems the same people who argue that a felon should get his voting rights back after spending several years in prison don't think a guy can have an elected position 40 years after adopting a racist symbol.  There are not any even any allegations that he was actually a member of the Klan or was a white supremist activist or took part in any demonstrations.  It just looks like he went to a very stupid party.

If a 24 year old was to wear a white power t shirt today would you say he could never hold an elected office for the rest of their life? 

I'd say yes because 24 is old enough to know better.  But what if they have a life changing event and they come out against such things?  

Hard questions.  

But I agree that seeing if they have "changed" is one way to judge it.

In this particular case he may have changed, but his reaction/response to the image makes it seem he should step down.

[*michaelsean*]

40 years ago, and no evidence I'm assuming of it being a continuing issue. I'd let him off the hook as long as he promises to immediately assemble an A list committee to help get the word out that black face is not appropriate?

[BmorePat87]

(02-04-2019, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Not if they hit women though. 

On topic, I do have to wonder how long ago a stupid decision has to have been made for it to no longer have the ability to destroy your life?  Not commenting on this specific example, but seriously.  Joe Reed gets a pass for making blatantly homophobic comments around ten years ago.  Understood that she's not an elected official but the concept is the same.

Tulsi is getting a pass for her past statements from her supporters because of her current stance, but I think the kickers is the fact that we all knew about it a decade ago. If this had come out a decade ago, we'd be over it.

Since we just found out, we're in a period of reacting to it where we are not sure if we think (we just being the public) he should be in office or that we would have elected him in the first place. 

But, yea, standards need to be applied across the board. 

[Belsnickel]

(02-04-2019, 12:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: On topic, I do have to wonder how long ago a stupid decision has to have been made for it to no longer have the ability to destroy your life?  Not commenting on this specific example, but seriously.  Joe Reed gets a pass for making blatantly homophobic comments around ten years ago.  Understood that she's not an elected official but the concept is the same.

We had a long discussion about that on Saturday. We were pretty much on the consensus that the knee-jerk calls for his resignation from the Democratic organizations and officials really just perpetuated this climate of reactionary politics. It's one of the reasons why we didn't call for his resignation because of the photos. We did, however, talk about how everyone makes mistakes, but there needs to be the right response when those mistakes are brought to light.

I know this will probably come across as SJWish or something, but here is what we said as our official news release:

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-04-2019, 12:41 PM)GMDino Wrote: And believe it or not I agree with you.  It's just a hard thing to gauge because of changing times.  

People still look at "The Jazz Singer" as a good film, but debate the use of black face.  Whereas blackface gets criticized elsewhere.

I'm sure the vast majority of us said or did something that NOW is considered horrible.  

The only answer I can think of is that the time and forgiveness are fluid.  So many factors like publicity, which group is offended, what the current climate is, etc.  Lots of variables that sometimes are not fair to the accused.

You're making a good point here.  The only thing I'd add is that forgiveness isn't so much fluid as it is dependent on the person needing it and what they're asking it for.  Mel Gibson has been forgiven and the guy is clearly an antisemite, homophobe, misogynist and racist.  Two of the women's march leaders are ardent followers of Louis Farrakhan, a virulent antisemite and avowed racist.  I guess if you can make someone money you can be forgiven.  I also think that the less "privilege" you have dint of your birth the more you can get away with, either forty years or forty minutes ago.

(02-04-2019, 12:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You have to look at how a person is living his life now to judge him.

Seems the same people who argue that a felon should get his voting rights back after spending several years in prison don't think a guy can have an elected position 40 years after adopting a racist symbol.  There are not any even any allegations that he was actually a member of the Klan or was a white supremist activist or took part in any demonstrations.  It just looks like he went to a very stupid party.

An excellent point and it perfectly illustrates how ideologues, whether left or right leaning, don't let pesky things like logic or consistency get in the way of their beliefs.

Quote:If a 24 year old was to wear a white power t shirt today would you say he could never hold an elected office for the rest of their life? 

Given that none of us are the person we were in our early twenties I'd say no.  The person you are now is what's important.  There appears to be no such thing as redemption for many people.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-04-2019, 12:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We had a long discussion about that on Saturday. We were pretty much on the consensus that the knee-jerk calls for his resignation from the Democratic organizations and officials really just perpetuated this climate of reactionary politics. It's one of the reasons why we didn't call for his resignation because of the photos. We did, however, talk about how everyone makes mistakes, but there needs to be the right response when those mistakes are brought to light.

I know this will probably come across as SJWish or something, but here is what we said as our official news release:

Would I be correct in thinking you've been more convinced by his response to this crisis of his need to resign than based on the pictures themselves?

[Belsnickel]

(02-04-2019, 12:55 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Would I be correct in thinking you've been more convinced by his response to this crisis of his need to resign than based on the pictures themselves?

Yes. That has been the biggest issue for me. I will freely admit that my calls for his resignation at the onset were politically based.

This is the "local" election year (or the "off-off-year") which means the entire General Assembly will be up for election in November. Right now, the GOP holds slight, tiny majorities in both chambers (in the House, it is 51-49 and was decided by drawing a name from a bowl because of a tie). Because of the abortion commentary dust-up, things were already a little tenuous. With this situation, it weakens the Democratic chances if Northam is still in office. I immediately saw this situation and that is why I called for it.

Then he held that press conference. Him walking back his apology, trying to change the story, almost frickin' moonwalking at the presser (thank goodness for Pam), and all that has happened since have shown me that he needs to go not just for political reasons, but because he is now unable to govern. He has lost any political capital he had as governor. He has lost the trust of Virginians.

At first, I was of the mindset that he needed to go for the good of the Democratic Party of Virginia, now I'm of the mindset he needs to go for the good of the Commonwealth as a whole.

[*bfine32*]

My original stance was to consider who he is today and not what he did 40 years ago as a drunken Grad Student; so I was willing to let bygones be bygones. But after that BS press conference and his wife having to control him; he needs to go. But as a Conservative I'm digging every minute of the show.

[BmorePat87]

Speaking generally: Past mistakes can be overcome by a change in character and action, but the people need time to process the past mistakes.

If someone's mistakes are known from the get go, it's easier to forgive over time and you also can make a judgement call during the primary. If someone hides their mistakes for decades and they're later exposed, the people are going to need time to process it.

I think it is acceptable to ask that someone resign and then run again later so that the public can make the decision again with the new information.

[6andcounting]

It's fair to not judge current him on things from 40 years ago that really don't even matter. It's fair to judge someone who is making contradictory statements as excuses until he finds one that sticks the best politically by back tracking from taking responsibility.

[GMDino]

Taking another day to think about this...maybe he was in a locker room so that makes it ok? 

[Goalpost]

If Virginia wants/gets a democratic replacement, they cant even find one.

https://www.salon.com/2019/02/06/second-blackface-case-strikes-virginia-democrats-attorney-general-mark-herring-admits-racist-past/

[Belsnickel]

This is me right now.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2019, 03:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is me right now.

Yeah, dude.  The Dems really shit the bed in VA within the last few weeks.  Top three elected officials all embroiled in scandal.  It's crazy that the whole thing was kicked off by the, even in my pro choice opinion, rather overreaching proposed abortion bill.  It's crazy how both parties overreach every single damn time they think they're in the catbird seat.  Apparently studying history is not in the wheelhouse of a single US politician.

[Dill]

(02-06-2019, 03:32 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is me right now.

I remember those electronic typewriters.

[Belsnickel]

(02-06-2019, 07:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yeah, dude.  The Dems really shit the bed in VA within the last few weeks.  Top three elected officials all embroiled in scandal.  It's crazy that the whole thing was kicked off by the, even in my pro choice opinion, rather overreaching proposed abortion bill.  It's crazy how both parties overreach every single damn time they think they're in the catbird seat.  Apparently studying history is not in the wheelhouse of a single US politician.

Eh, the abortion bill thing was blown way out of proportion. The bill doesn't do much but reduce the number of doctors needed to make the call down from three to one, and also make it so a late term abortion could actually happen if necessary. The language in the law currently is so restrictive it isn't ever interpreted as legal, even if the health of the mother is in jeopardy. It would still require the life or health of the mother or the fetus to be in jeopardy for a third trimester abortion. The same bill was introduced last year, verbatim, and there was no big issue. This year is an election year, so Republicans decided to grandstand to try to rally their base and caught Tran, a freshman legislator, off guard.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2019, 08:41 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Eh, the abortion bill thing was blown way out of proportion. The bill doesn't do much but reduce the number of doctors needed to make the call down from three to one, and also make it so a late term abortion could actually happen if necessary. The language in the law currently is so restrictive it isn't ever interpreted as legal, even if the health of the mother is in jeopardy. It would still require the life or health of the mother or the fetus to be in jeopardy for a third trimester abortion. The same bill was introduced last year, verbatim, and there was no big issue. This year is an election year, so Republicans decided to grandstand to try to rally their base and caught Tran, a freshman legislator, off guard.

I get that, never take the hot take at face value.  My main point was that the whole scandal, and it's cascade effect, was caused by the recent abortion bill.  I'd have to review the text of the bill in its entirety to really comment on how much of an overreach it was.  

[Belsnickel]

(02-06-2019, 08:45 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I get that, never take the hot take at face value.  My main point was that the whole scandal, and it's cascade effect, was caused by the recent abortion bill.  I'd have to review the text of the bill in its entirety to really comment on how much of an overreach it was.  

Oh yeah, the whole chain of events has been interesting. It should be noted, though, that some of this is Dems doing it to each other. The party has so many factions, and everyone involved other than Northam was a potential 2021 candidate for governor since it is a one-term governorship state.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-06-2019, 09:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Oh yeah, the whole chain of events has been interesting. It should be noted, though, that some of this is Dems doing it to each other. The party has so many factions, and everyone involved other than Northam was a potential 2021 candidate for governor since it is a one-term governorship state.

One term?  I'm assuming a four year term as per the norm?  I get the desire to not have the incumbent firmly ensconced but I think some degree of continuity is desirable.  Although after Gavin Newsome's first month in office I see the appeal.

[Belsnickel]

(02-06-2019, 09:06 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: One term?  I'm assuming a four year term as per the norm?  I get the desire to not have the incumbent firmly ensconced but I think some degree of continuity is desirable.  Although after Gavin Newsome's first month in office I see the appeal.

Yep, one four-year term. It is something that has its ups and downs. So you'd think the obvious heir-apparent would be the Lieutenant Governor, but Herring stayed as Attorney General this time because it has more potential to make a difference. The LG is a part-time position that pretty much just presides over the State Senate. So in 2021, both Herring and Fairfax were going to be vying to the Governorship. Then, Richmond Mayor Levar Stoney is also in the mix and has been implicated by Fairfax as the person pushing the allegations against him, the presumption being that he was going to throw his hat into the ring in 2021. There are also accusations against Northam from the Fairfax camp because they presume that Northam will favor Herring for 2021, and if Northam would resign it would allow Fairfax to run as an incumbent in 2021, which would really back-bench Herring.

On top of all of this, the next in line after those three is Speaker Cox. He is speaker because of a tiny GOP majority in the House of Delegates (51-49). The reason the GOP has the majority is because one election in 2017 was tied, and it literally came down to pulling the name out of a bowl.

Virginia state politics is ***** crazy.