Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[Dill]

Coordinated attacks by land, sea and air (hang-and paragliders).
Thousands of rockets overwhelm Iron Dome. Israeli soldiers taken hostage. 
Some villages in southern Israel reported occupied by Hamas fighters
Marc Polyermopoulos (NSC intel analyst) on Morning Joe today--"Stunning failure of intelligence."

22 killed in unprecedented Hamas attack in Israel; prime minister says country is "at war"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/israel-attack-hamas-unprecedented-rocket-invasion/

Gaza and Israel on War Footing After Militants Launch Surprise Assaults
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/07/world/israel-gaza-attack

Israel and Gaza were at war on Saturday after Palestinian militants launched an early morning assault on southern Israel that had few precedents in its complexity and scale, invading several Israeli towns and firing thousands of rockets toward cities as far away as Jerusalem.

The militants crossed into Israel by land, sea and air, according to the Israeli military. By late morning, at least 22 Israelis had been reported dead by the country’s main ambulance service, and Israel had retaliated with massive strikes on Gazan cities, killing at least one Palestinian, according to local reports.

Why the Palestinian group Hamas launched an attack on Israel? All to know
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/7/palestinian-group-hamas-launches-surprise-attack-on-israel-what-to-know

The Palestinian armed group Hamas has launched “Operation Al-Aqsa Flood” against Israel in the most serious escalation since Israel and Hamas fought an 11-day war in 2021.
Hamas said it had fired 5,000 rockets, while Israel confirmed that the group’s fighters had entered its territory.
Daniel Hagari, an Israeli army spokesman, said that the group attacked from land, sea and air.
The first round of rockets was fired at 06:30am local time (03:30 GMT).
The Israeli army also said it launched “Operation Iron Swords” against the Hamas group in the Gaza Strip.
The early-morning strikes occur.

How many casualties in Israel and Palestine?
At least 22 Israelis have been killed, local media said, quoting emergency services. More than 500 Israelis have been injured, Reuters quoted the country’s health ministry as saying.
At least four Palestinians have been killed and five are wounded in confrontations between the Israeli army and Palestinian groups in the border area of the Gaza Strip, Anadolu news agency said.

Why did Hamas attack Israel?
Hamas spokesperson Khaled Qadomi has told Al Jazeera that the group’s military operation is in response to all the atrocities the Palestinians have faced over the decades.
“We want the international community to stop atrocities in Gaza, against Palestinian people, our holy sites like Al-Aqsa. All these things are the reason behind starting this battle,” he said.
“This is the day of the greatest battle to end the last occupation on earth,” Mohammed Deif, the Hamas military commander said, adding that 5,000 rockets were launched.
“Everyone who has a gun should take it out. The time has come,” Deif said, according to reports.
Hamas called on “the resistance fighters in the West Bank” as well as “our Arab and Islamic nations” to join the battle, in a statement posted on Telegram.

What is the Israeli government saying?
The Israeli army warned Israelis who live near Gaza to stay in their homes or head to shelters.
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says his country is in a war it “will win”.
Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant said Israel “will win this war.” Hamas, he said, had made a “grave mistake this morning and launched a war against the State of Israel.”

What is the latest on the ground?
The Israeli military is fighting Hamas fighters in seven locations in southern Israel near the fence with the Gaza Strip, according to the Times of Israel.
The Israeli cabinet is expected to hold a meeting at 1pm (10:00 GMT) in the headquarters of the Ministry of Defence.
The Ministry of Health in Gaza has issued a call for blood donations at hospitals in the besieged enclave.

[Millhouse]

Hamas has been deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S. under President Clinton and the E.U., and is largely funded by Iran.

I will always side with Israel over them and Iran, not even a moments thought about it. I do hope this gets resolved quickly though so that innocent people don't die in the areas these terrorists are attacking. And by people that is all the people there, muslims, jews, christians, atheists.

[Dill]

(10-07-2023, 10:04 AM)Millhouse Wrote: Hamas has been deemed a terrorist organization by the U.S. under President Clinton and the E.U., and is largely funded by Iran.

I will always side with Israel over them and Iran, not even a moments thought about it. I do hope this gets resolved quickly though so that innocent people don't die in the areas these terrorists are attacking. And by people that is all the people there, muslims, jews, christians, atheists.

What about innocent people in those areas the Israelis are attacking?

I'm in the "DO give it a moment's thought" school.

I.e., examine the causes of such the conflicts before siding with anyone.

Sometimes not siding at all.

[basballguy]

(10-07-2023, 10:48 AM)Dill Wrote: What about innocent people in those areas the Israelis are attacking?

I'm in the "DO give it a moment's thought" school.

I.e., examine the causes of such the conflicts before siding with anyone.

Sometimes not siding at all.

many people will say this but lots of those same people were quick to pick sides in the Ukraine conflict.

“Israel committed atrocities, let’s stop to think why Hammas did this!”

“Let’s ignore the Ukraine lunatics that contributed to the Russian War! Russia bad!”

There is no moment to “stop and reflect” when terrorists are murdering children for whatever cause they believe in. It’s either bad or it’s not.

In both cases, it’s bad

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-07-2023, 12:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: many people will say this but lots of those same people were quick to pick sides in the Ukraine conflict.  

“Israel committed atrocities, let’s stop to think why Hammas did this!”

“Let’s ignore the Ukraine lunatics that contributed to the Russian War!  Russia bad!”

There is no moment to “stop and reflect” when terrorists are murdering children for whatever cause they believe in.  It’s either bad or it’s not.

In both cases, it’s bad

100% correct.  When a terrorist organization funded by a terrorist state, Iran, attacks a country out of the blue there is no considering, "why is Hamas so angry?".  They're terrorist scum who care nothing for the lives their ending or endangering.  Dill loathes Israel though, so he's fishing for some sympathy for their attackers.

[HarleyDog]

(10-07-2023, 12:19 PM)basballguy Wrote: There is no moment to “stop and reflect” when terrorists are murdering children for whatever cause they believe in.  It’s either bad or it’s not.

In both cases, it’s bad

Murdering innocent people on both sides. Hamas hides within the innocent population. Therefore, when Israel retaliates, innocent people die and hamas celebrates it because it gains support for their cause by screaming Israel is killing innocent people. 

[Millhouse]

(10-07-2023, 10:48 AM)Dill Wrote: What about innocent people in those areas the Israelis are attacking?

I'm in the "DO give it a moment's thought" school.

I.e., examine the causes of such the conflicts before siding with anyone.

Sometimes not siding at all.

I'll give benefit of the doubt to Israel over Iran and a terrorist group known as Hamas for what's happened today. 

[Arturo Bandini]

Sounds like all the russians allies are attempting to rise local conflicts ( Armenia, Israel, Africa ) all around the world.

A nice reminder that the fight is not only in Ukraine. It's coming from everywhere and we better be ready.

[Matt_Crimson]

I'm not sure what to think of this entire situation, however it is really interesting to see how this is being covered by Fox News and CNN where sides have clearly been picked.

On Fox News it's constant coverage of Israel's viewpoint. On CNN it's constant coverage of the Palestinian viewpoint.

On Fox News it says 100 Israelis dead. 

On CNN it says 70 Israelis dead, 198 Palestinians dead from Israeli response. 

And CNN had someone live on air tell them at least a hundred Israelis have died and it's not as low as some News stations are reporting but the headline still remains at 70. 

[basballguy]

(10-07-2023, 03:22 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not sure what to think of this entire situation, however it is really interesting to see how this is being covered by Fox News and CNN where sides have clearly been picked.

On Fox News it's constant coverage of Israel's viewpoint. On CNN it's constant coverage of the Palestinian viewpoint.

On Fox News it says 100 Israelis dead. 

On CNN it says 70 Israelis dead, 198 Palestinians dead from Israeli response. 

And CNN had someone live on air tell them at least a hundred Israelis have died and it's not as low as some News stations are reporting but the headline still remains at 70. 

It’s also interesting to see liberal media actually blame the IDF since their intelligence gathering didn’t see this coming.

It’s basically like “well she was raped because she dressed in a promiscuous way”.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-07-2023, 12:34 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: 100% correct.  When a terrorist organization funded by a terrorist state, Iran, attacks a country out of the blue there is no considering, "why is Hamas so angry?".  They're terrorist scum who care nothing for the lives their ending or endangering.  Dill loathes Israel though, so he's fishing for some sympathy for their attackers.

I’m somewhat reminded of this classic.

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-07-2023, 03:31 PM)basballguy Wrote: It’s also interesting to see liberal media actually blame the IDF since their intelligence gathering didn’t see this coming.  

It’s basically like “well she was raped because she dressed in a promiscuous way”.

I'm just waiting for The One Who Shall Not Be Named to get thrown into this somewhere. I know it's coming.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-07-2023, 03:22 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I'm not sure what to think of this entire situation, however it is really interesting to see how this is being covered by Fox News and CNN where sides have clearly been picked.

On Fox News it's constant coverage of Israel's viewpoint. On CNN it's constant coverage of the Palestinian viewpoint.

On Fox News it says 100 Israelis dead. 

On CNN it says 70 Israelis dead, 198 Palestinians dead from Israeli response. 

And CNN had someone live on air tell them at least a hundred Israelis have died and it's not as low as some News stations are reporting but the headline still remains at 70. 

(10-07-2023, 03:31 PM)basballguy Wrote: It’s also interesting to see liberal media actually blame the IDF since their intelligence gathering didn’t see this coming.  

It’s basically like “well she was raped because she dressed in a promiscuous way”.

(10-07-2023, 03:33 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: I’m somewhat reminded of this classic.

The far left, personified here by OP, have decided that Israel is an evil apartheid state.  Thus, any actions taken against them are justified, or at least understandable.  Israel has major flaws, and I'm not a fan of many of their decisions.  But they didn't create themselves and since the creation of the state they have had numerous neighbors publicly state that their goal is the elimination of Israel.  Given that, I have a hard time casting them as the aggressors, regardless of how poor some of their decision, both past and present, have been.  This is especially true when you have one of the worst regimes on the planet, Iran, actively supporting and encouraging terrorist attacks against Israel.  Does anyone doubt for a second that if Iran ever develops a nuke it will be used on Israel as soon as possible?  If you doubt this one need only look at the signs held during the vile Al quds day events in Iran.

But yeah, let us take a moment to ponder the motivations of the terrorist group that started this conflict, maybe they're just misunderstood?  

BTW this is my favorite (and by favorite I mean most nauseating) sign.




She seems nice.

[*pally*]

It is interesting to note that board opinions on coverage follow party lines. Everyone reads into the coverage what their personal biases want them to see.

And as of now, I haven't seen televised coverage. I haven't been near a tv so I have no personal opinion.

One note of the differences in the number of deaths. Just online I've seen numbers all over the place. Until something is officially confirmed and announced there will be discrepancies. And not due to political biases in the reporting, it is just part and parcel of reporting an ongoing situation

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-07-2023, 03:59 PM)pally Wrote: It is interesting to note that board opinions on coverage follow party lines.  Everyone reads into the coverage what their personal biases want them to see.

And as of now, I haven't seen televised coverage.  I haven't been near a tv so I have no personal opinion.

One note of the differences in the number of deaths.  Just online I've seen numbers all over the place.  Until something is officially confirmed and announced there will be discrepancies. And not due to political biases in the reporting, it is just part and parcel of reporting an ongoing situation

Ahh I get it. 

We don't know how many Israelis died. We just know for sure much more Palestinians have died. And they didn't just die. They died from Israeli attacks specifically.

[basballguy]

(10-07-2023, 03:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: But yeah, let us take a moment to ponder the motivations of the terrorist group that started this conflict, maybe they're just misunderstood?  
She seems nice.

To the surprise of no one, Vox has taken the “let’s understand why hammas did this” approach

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/7/23907323/israel-war-hamas-attack-explained-southern-israel-gaza

Equally predictable, Fox seems to be blaming Biden lol

[Dill]

(10-07-2023, 03:31 PM)basballguy Wrote: It’s also interesting to see liberal media actually blame the IDF since their intelligence gathering didn’t see this coming.  

It’s basically like “well she was raped because she dressed in a promiscuous way”.

I have heard MSNBC and CNN pundits speak of an "intelligence failure."

That seems an accurate enough description.

Has anyone extended "blame" beyond that description?

[grampahol]

(10-07-2023, 04:31 PM)basballguy Wrote: To the surprise of no one, Vox has taken the “let’s understand why hammas did this” approach

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/7/23907323/israel-war-hamas-attack-explained-southern-israel-gaza

If you really want a villain to blame with a bit of history go back to WWI when the British promised both sides their own homeland on the same ground in exchange for both fighting against the Ottoman Turks..Buyers remorse anyone?  The UN did nobody any big favors in 1949 either. 

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-07-2023, 04:31 PM)basballguy Wrote: To the surprise of no one, Vox has taken the “let’s understand why hammas did this” approach

https://www.vox.com/2023/10/7/23907323/israel-war-hamas-attack-explained-southern-israel-gaza

Equally predictable, Fox seems to be blaming Biden lol

I don’t think the $6 billion for Iran has been brought up in here yet. I’m assuming that’s what they’re referring to.

[Dill]

(10-07-2023, 01:29 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I'll give benefit of the doubt to Israel over Iran and a terrorist group known as Hamas for what's happened today. 

It's a complicated situation, Mill.

In this year alone, over 200 Palestinians and 30 Israelis have been killed in the occupied West Bank.
https://ny1.com/nyc/all-boroughs/international/2023/08/21/this-year-over-200-palestinians-and-nearly-30-israelis-have-been-killed--highest-since-2005--un-says

That includes 38 children.
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/2023-marks-deadliest-year-record-children-occupied-west-bank

When we hear of Israeli-Palestinian violence in the US press, it is usually framed as the former's response to something the latter did out of the blue. Israel's "right to self defense" is quickly affirmed. From our Right Wing there is an effort to block discussion of conditions on the ground and substantive public discussion of the conflict's history. What is the Gaza Strip? We only hear the name when rockets come out there, launched by some inexplicable anger which can be neither excused nor examined.

I'm not a big fan of Hamas, and don't know what could be the immediate cause of the recent attack, but I suspect it has something to do with several recent tendencies in ME politics: the annexation of the the Golan Heights followed by Israeli talk of annexing the West Bank as well, the continuation of illegal settlement there along with unimpeded settler violence, the apparent abandonment by the US of any commitment to a two-state solution (or any solution, really), the Abraham Accords, and current discussions between Saudi Arabia and Israel about normalizing relations.

The latter two especially would leave the Palestinians pretty isolated, with only two effective players in the region backing them: Iran and Hezbollah.