Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[Dill]

(10-09-2023, 06:07 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Kill every Israeli in the Middle East.

Other nations stepping in and helping Israel with boots on the ground to take him out.

The first is a wish, not a plan. I don't think they are practically aiming at that in this attack.

But they know they are calling hell down on Gaza by this attack.

So given that, what could the goal of the attack be?

Is it possible that "other nations stepping in" was hoped for, a goal?

[Millhouse]

(10-09-2023, 06:47 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Alright, well I just saw videos of Hamas fighters mutilating dead bodies of Israelis, stabbing them, shooting them and their families in their living rooms,  riding around with the dead body of an Israeli woman whose legs are literally bent the wrong way cause they're broken, one Israeli man getting beheaded with a shovel.......

Complete annihilation seems like the only option at this point. I'd be surprised if Israel did anything less.
When Israel called them ISIS, they weren't kidding.

It's interesting to still see them being called militants by some out there. Maybe militants is the politically correct term for terrorists nowadays? I get the U.N. failed a motion to have them labeled as such, but the U.N. also is where China is on the human rights council smh.

But yeah they are no better than ISIS. Maybe they think this will guarantee them their virgins when they get blasted to their insane view of heaven. 

[Luvnit2]

(10-09-2023, 07:16 PM)Millhouse Wrote:
It's interesting to still see them being called militants by some out there. Maybe militants is the politically correct term for terrorists nowadays? I get the U.N. failed a motion to have them labeled as such, but the U.N. also is where China is on the human rights council smh.

But yeah they are no better than ISIS. Maybe they think this will guarantee them their virgins when they get blasted to their insane view of heaven. 

It is sad any politician would call for a cease fire as AOC did and also Blinken, then removed it. Their actions showed they are terrorists. Iran's actions show they are a terrorist state. Yet, Biden lets them off the hook and now as Israel tries to work with Saudi Arabia, terrorists attacks on Israel. It was not an accident, it was Iran working with Hamas and our intelligence was blinded by it.  

[NATI BENGALS]

You know who is buddies with Iran? Russia.
You know who leaked Israeli spy secrets to Russia? Trump.
You know who wins when the world looks away from the war in Ukraine? Russia.

Putin is an evil genius. Would not be surprised if they had a hand in this.

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/trumps-disclosure-endangered-spy-inside-isis-israel-officials/story?id=47449304

Massive intelligence failure on the Israelis was preceded by an American president sharing secrets with a Hamas/Iran ally. Hmm?

I’ve been thinking for years we won’t know the true consequences of his presidency for some time.

[*pally*]

(10-09-2023, 01:35 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote:

The White House has called a lid before noon.

We do not expect to see or hear from President Biden for the rest of the day.

— Jacqui Heinrich (@JacquiHeinrich) October 9, 2023

Edit, update:

One hour after Biden called a lid, Hamas is threatening to execute prisoners on live TV

They reportedly have multiple American hostages pic.twitter.com/EzHEmOLcmx

— John Hasson (@SonofHas) October 9, 2023

Someone needs to hold a mirror under the old man’s nose.

 Putting the lid on simply means they are making no public appearances and not planning any announcements for the rest of the day.  It doesn't mean they shut down the West Wing and the President is upstairs drinking a beer.  No, he is meeting with the NSC and other senior officials.  He is making phone calls to world leaders.

Hamas making an announcement had nothing to do with any press lid.  They were aiming for a reaction that a smart President doesn't give them

[treee]

I don't see how groups like Hamas gets routed out without integrating normal Palestinians into Israel's legal system. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Big picture, Palestinians don't have as many rights as Israelis even though they're being subjected to Israeli control. I think a 2 state solution is the only 'fair' way forward at this point. They'd probably need a federal government above their 2 states designed protect itself internally and externally from extremism. Let the two states have home rule in as many facets as possible while protecting both Israelis and Palestinians from violence.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-09-2023, 08:07 PM)pally Wrote:  Putting the lid on simply means they are making no public appearances and not planning any announcements for the rest of the day.  It doesn't mean they shut down the West Wing and the President is upstairs drinking a beer.  No, he is meeting with the NSC and other senior officials.  He is making phone calls to world leaders.

Hamas making an announcement had nothing to do with any press lid.  They were aiming for a reaction that a smart President doesn't give them

I’ll take your word for it.

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 08:17 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: I’ll take your word for it.

This is something I learned from The West Wing back before I became a bureaucrat.

FWIW, she is right. That is what the term means. Essentially, it is that there is no more planned news coming out of the White House.

[basballguy]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-music-festival-6a55aae2375944f10ecc4c52d05f2ffe

Quote:Festival-goers who managed to make it to the road and parking lot where their vehicles were parked found themselves trapped in a traffic jam, with militants stalking the cars and spraying those inside with gunfire.

But hey let's try to understand the motivations and reasons behind senselessly murdering innocents like this.

Also, calling them militants instead of terrorists is a bit silly

[Matt_Crimson]

(10-09-2023, 08:07 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: You know who is buddies with Iran? Russia.
You know who leaked Israeli spy secrets to Russia? Trump.
You know who wins when the world looks away from the war in Ukraine? Russia.

Putin is an evil genius. Would not be surprised if they had a hand in this.

https://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/trumps-disclosure-endangered-spy-inside-isis-israel-officials/story?id=47449304

Massive intelligence failure on the Israelis was preceded by an American president sharing secrets with a Hamas/Iran ally. Hmm?

I’ve been thinking for years we won’t know the true consequences of his presidency for some time.

You mean the "secrets" he shared 6 years ago about ISIS? Or are you referring to something else?

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-09-2023, 08:09 PM)treee Wrote: I don't see how groups like Hamas gets routed out without integrating normal Palestinians into Israel's legal system. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Big picture, Palestinians don't have as many rights as Israelis even though they're being subjected to Israeli control. I think a 2 state solution is the only 'fair' way forward at this point. They'd probably need a federal government above their 2 states designed protect itself internally and externally from extremism. Let the two states have home rule in as many facets as possible while protecting both Israelis and Palestinians from violence.

Do you who does NOT want a two-state system? The Palestinians! They want ONE state: Theirs — with Israel destroyed and completely eradicated. Read their charter if you don’t believe me.

[StoneTheCrow]

(10-09-2023, 08:42 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is something I learned from The West Wing back before I became a bureaucrat.

FWIW, she is right. That is what the term means. Essentially, it is that there is no more planned news coming out of the White House.

I get what it is. Alternatively, I learned what the term meant when his campaign called one seemingly every day at like 9:30 a.m.

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 08:44 PM)basballguy Wrote: https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-gaza-hamas-music-festival-6a55aae2375944f10ecc4c52d05f2ffe


But hey let's try to understand the motivations and reasons behind senselessly murdering innocents like this.

Also, calling them militants instead of terrorists is a bit silly

Militant is an accurate word choice. Calling a militant a terrorist is making a value/judgement statement about the individuals involved and moves the tone of the article from hard news into opinion.

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 08:50 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Do you who does NOT want a two-state system? The Palestinians! They want ONE state: Theirs — with Israel destroyed and completely eradicated. Read their charter if you don’t believe me.

Correction. Hamas does not want a two-state solution. Most Palestinians do.

Edit: Correction on myself. This is the former position of the majority of Palestinians. Younger Palestinians are more against the two-state solution. This is likely the result of being born into the situation they have been.

[*pally*]

(10-09-2023, 08:17 PM)StoneTheCrow Wrote: I’ll take your word for it.

apparently, also on his schedule today was an interview with the special counsel investigating his documents

NOW: From the WH regard Biden’s special documents case pic.twitter.com/Thrm4zSDxk

— Brian J. Karem (@BrianKarem) October 9, 2023

 

[basballguy]

(10-09-2023, 08:51 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Militant is an accurate word choice. Calling a militant a terrorist is making a value/judgement statement about the individuals involved and moves the tone of the article from hard news into opinion.

You say some of the most ridiculous things

Quote:ter·ror·ist
/ˈterərəst/

noun

1. a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
   

Here's a better definition as provided by the UN...

Quote:

• Resolution 1566 (2004) adopted by the Security Council of the United Nations: “…criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature…”
  

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/terrorism#:~:text=criminal%20acts%2C%20including%20against%20civilians,a%20government%20or%20an%20international

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 08:55 PM)basballguy Wrote: You say some of the most ridiculous things

https://www.ap.org/press-releases/new-ap-stylebook-includes-300-new-or-revised-entries-inclusive-storytelling-chapter

Quote:New guidance on terrorism that says to describe specific actions that are being perpetrated, and attribute the use of the word terrorism or terrorist to authorities except when talking about historical events widely acknowledged as terrorist actions.

So, what the AP style guide, the most commonly used way to write in news media, says about it is that it is a judgement statement and if the term is used for a contemporary event it must be a statement from an authority on the topic, quoted as such and attributed to them. It is not the role of the journalist to make that call.

I am just telling you what the AP says. I am not the one that should be the target of your ridicule.

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 09:03 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Terrorist in this instance isn't really an opinion though.

One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Militant applies to both, though.

[treee]

(10-09-2023, 08:50 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Do you who does NOT want a two-state system?  The Palestinians!  They want ONE state: Theirs — with Israel destroyed and completely eradicated.  Read their charter if you don’t believe me.

Most Palestinians are just normal people trying to live their lives like the rest of us. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-09-2023, 08:55 PM)basballguy Wrote: Here's a better definition as provided by the UN...

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/terrorism#:~:text=criminal%20acts%2C%20including%20against%20civilians,a%20government%20or%20an%20international

It's not, though. It is still a very subjective statement based on values. I could make very reasonable and logical arguments that the IDF are terrorists, as well. I could argue that our US intelligence and security services are terrorist organizations. We like to make excuses for our actions and find ways to justify them, but by the letter of the UN resolution, those could be deemed terrorist groups. It's all a judgement call.