Hamas Attacks Israel: 70 Israelis, 198 Palestinians Dead

[basballguy]

(10-10-2023, 01:42 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Sure.

Any comment on the actual post or just felt like re-wording someone's already understandable post?

Your first sentence reads the same way to me. There’s nothing rational (or warranted) about attacking a music festival and slaughtering teenagers dude. The rest of your post is on point but you really whiffed on that first part of that sentence.

Edit: I’ll add this could be a completely different conversation if it was a military strike by Hamas. It wasn’t.

[Dill]

(10-10-2023, 07:22 AM)pally Wrote: The war didn’t end until 1945 so I guess in a manner you are correct.  It wasn’t being discussed in 1944.
However,  you need to revisit your post WWII history.  Of course, people were examining how the war came to be and what conditions led to the wholesale massacre of millions of people while seemingly sane human beings turned their heads in denial.

The whole history of the Middle East is complicated.  But we can trace the roots of the current conflicts back to the 1917 Balfour Declaration that stated the support for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, then held by the Ottoman Empire and controlled by the British when the Ottoman Empire was dissolved at the conclusion of WW1.

No. He's dead wrong about that. 

By 1944 Soviet Jurist Aron Trainin had already formulated the legal basis for international prosecution of Nazis for Crimes against peace and genocide.

He is quite well known to international genocide/humanitarian law scholars.
https://publications.hse.ru/en/chapters/412582262
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14623528.2019.1651558

A good discussion of the prep for prosecution of war crimes and genocide, which began in 1942 in the Soviet case,
begins on page 103 here.
https://digitalcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1588&context=gsp

The basis of most of the UN resolutions condemning Israel were developed from war crimes documented in WWII
--e.g. use of collective punishment on civilians, unlawful summary detention of non-combatants, annexation of sovereign territory, and more.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-10-2023, 08:35 AM)Dill Wrote: Such a bad guess. 

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/history-of-the-un/preparatory-years
https://www.britannica.com/event/Dumbarton-Oaks-Conference
https://archive.org/details/internationallaw4445nava/page/248/mode/2up

But misinformation aside, why would you even want to make that point?

I’m not sure what any of your links have to do with it. You yourself said, “after fascism was defeated “..

Edit: Nevermind. I wasn't at my best last night. Tired and pretty mad.

[GMDino]

What a world.

Innocent people being killed on both sides for thousands of years over a piece of land.

And people choose sides based on which side they think is the "worst".

We will never learn. There will never be peace.  Ever.

The bible says we were created in god's image, and we are just as petty and violent as him.  His image sucks.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-10-2023, 01:42 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Sure.

Any comment on the actual post or just felt like re-wording someone's already understandable post?

I'm sorry.  It was late, for me, and I was so disgusted reading about what was going on that I was venting some.

[Dill]

(10-10-2023, 08:33 AM)basballguy Wrote: So make an argument that IDF is terrorizing people.  I’m not saying one is and the other isn’t.  

What I am saying is the majority of the world calls these actions terroristic.   Now I feel like you do agree this is terrorism (hence why I called it silly) but you would rather lock in on a random comment simply because you enjoy arguing with people.  

Or I could be completely wrong.  You could possibly think murdering teenagers in cold blood to incite fear isn’t terrorism.  I doubt you feel that way though :)

The majority of the world calls the occupation illegal.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law

So far it looks to me like you are applying a double standard here, on a number of levels. World opinion matters when it favors Israel,
but not when it favors palestinians under their military control. 

But I'll make the argument the IDF has and does terrorize people, focusing for the moment on Gaza.
Israel has killed thousands of civilians in Gaza. The Israeli human rights group B'etselem keeps a data base
which disaggregates casualties by gender and age. 
https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=charts

Israel has killed far more Palestinian teenagers, most of the death raining down on trapped civilians from the air--to "incite fear." 

Two million people whose grandparents were stripped of their land are penned into an open air prison they cannot leave. 
Any show of resistance to that imprisonment brings bombs.  Ho hum. Excusable.

But if some break out and kill their captors there is suddenly outrage at "terrorism" which "nothing can excuse."

Hamas is nuts. Twisted. They have become more twisted year by year, and have themselves killed hundreds of 
Palestinians--anyone who supports the two-state solution and peace. But it is Israeli policy, with US support, that has
created this monster. It is aggravating that when they suddenly strike back at their jailers, so few, SAFE here in the US, have time
question why they were jailed in the first place--for three generations--while so many deny that understanding this history
should play any role in resolving present war and preventing future ones. 

[*pally*]

(10-10-2023, 09:41 AM)Dill Wrote:
The majority of the world calls the occupation illegal.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law

So far it looks to me like you are applying a double standard here, on a number of levels. World opinion matters when it favors Israel,
but not when it favors palestinians under their military control. 

But I'll make the argument the IDF has and does terrorize people, focusing for the moment on Gaza.
Israel has killed thousands of civilians in Gaza. The Israeli human rights group B'etselem keeps a data base
which disaggregates casualties by gender and age. 
https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=charts

Israel has killed far more Palestinian teenagers, most of the death raining down on trapped civilians from the air--to "incite fear." 

Two million people whose grandparents were stripped of their land are penned into an open air prison they cannot leave. 
Any show of resistance to that imprisonment brings bombs.  Ho hum. Excusable.

But if some break out and kill their captors there is suddenly outrage at "terrorism" which "nothing can excuse."

Hamas is nuts. Twisted. They have become more twisted year by year, and have themselves killed hundreds of 
Palestinians--anyone who supports the two-state solution and peace. But it is Israeli policy, with US support, that has
created this monster. It is aggravating that when they suddenly strike back at their jailers, so few, SAFE here in the US, have time
question why they were jailed in the first place--for three generations--while so many deny that understanding this history
should play any role in resolving present war and preventing future ones. 

and if/when they succeed in destroying this version of Hamas, unless something massively changes, another more violent, less civilized, and more determined Hamas will take its place.

[CJD]

(10-10-2023, 09:35 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I'm sorry.  It was late, for me, and I was so disgusted reading about what was going on that I was venting some.

I understand, no hard feelings :)
I'm sorry too, the purpose of my post was not to imply that Hamas is justified in killing/raping/kidnapping innocent people. Maybe the first part of that first sentence was unnecessary. I only wrote it to prevent the "but Israel deserves this!" and the "Hamas is evil so everything they're doing makes Palestinians 100% wrong" responses that I figured would come had I not addressed it. My post was purely meant to discuss the inevitability of inhumane behavior because of the nature of the struggle between the two governing powers.

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2023, 08:33 AM)basballguy Wrote: So make an argument that IDF is terrorizing people. I’m not saying one is and the other isn’t.

What I am saying is the majority of the world calls these actions terroristic. Now I feel like you do agree this is terrorism (hence why I called it silly) but you would rather lock in on a random comment simply because you enjoy arguing with people.

Or I could be completely wrong. You could possibly think murdering teenagers in cold blood to incite fear isn’t terrorism. I doubt you feel that way though :)

I understand your point, and I don't disagree that Hamas is a terrorist organization and these are terrorist actions. I was commenting on the word choice initially because it was being used to critique news agencies. The journalists writing those articles were following the guidelines for their job in reporting the news. It frustrates me that people want them to insert subjectivity into their articles and then turn around to complain about those news agencies and journalists being too opinionated when they don't agree with the news that they report.

So anyway, I was merely trying to point out that the word choice was intentional and correct to uphold journalistic standards in response to the criticism of the word choice which was unnecessary.

[basballguy]

(10-10-2023, 09:41 AM)Dill Wrote:
The majority of the world calls the occupation illegal.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2022/10/commission-inquiry-finds-israeli-occupation-unlawful-under-international-law

So far it looks to me like you are applying a double standard here, on a number of levels. World opinion matters when it favors Israel,
but not when it favors palestinians under their military control. 

But I'll make the argument the IDF has and does terrorize people, focusing for the moment on Gaza.
Israel has killed thousands of civilians in Gaza. The Israeli human rights group B'etselem keeps a data base
which disaggregates casualties by gender and age. 
https://statistics.btselem.org/en/stats/during-cast-lead/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=charts

Israel has killed far more Palestinian teenagers, most of the death raining down on trapped civilians from the air--to "incite fear." 

Two million people whose grandparents were stripped of their land are penned into an open air prison they cannot leave. 
Any show of resistance to that imprisonment brings bombs.  Ho hum. Excusable.

But if some break out and kill their captors there is suddenly outrage at "terrorism" which "nothing can excuse."

Hamas is nuts. Twisted. They have become more twisted year by year, and have themselves killed hundreds of 
Palestinians--anyone who supports the two-state solution and peace. But it is Israeli policy, with US support, that has
created this monster. It is aggravating that when they suddenly strike back at their jailers, so few, SAFE here in the US, have time
question why they were jailed in the first place--for three generations--while so many deny that understanding this history
should play any role in resolving present war and preventing future ones. 

Ok, you took that a bit too literally.  :)  I'm not here to support Israel, I'm here to condemn Hamas.  I can do one without the other.  

Quote:But if some break out and kill their captors there is suddenly outrage at "terrorism" which "nothing can excuse."

Were these teenagers at this festival holding anyone captive?  

What Hamas has done has no justification....had they launched a military offensive on civic/military targets then maybe some would have an argument.  

[Dill]

(10-09-2023, 08:55 PM)basballguy Wrote: You say some of the most ridiculous things

Here's a better definition as provided by the UN...
Quote:

• Resolution 1566 (2004) adopted by the Security Council of the United Nations: “…criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature…
  

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/terrorism#:~:text=criminal%20acts%2C%20including%20against%20civilians,a%20government%20or%20an%20international

How does that definition NOT apply to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and confinement of two million regularly bombed civilians in Gaza?

[basballguy]

(10-10-2023, 09:57 AM)Dill Wrote: How does that definition NOT apply to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and confinement of two million regularly bombed civilians in Gaza?

please see my previous reply to you.  :)

[HarleyDog]

(10-09-2023, 09:04 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter. Militant applies to both, though.

Mowing down innocent people at a concert in the desert is terrorism regardless how you look at it. Shooting innocent kids trying to leave the concert and remove themselves from the situation is also terrorism. They were fleeing and not fighting. There is no justification.

[Luvnit2]

(10-10-2023, 10:41 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Mowing down innocent people at a concert in the desert is terrorism regardless how you look at it. Shooting innocent kids trying to leave the concert and remove themselves from the situation is also terrorism. They were fleeing and not fighting. There is no justification.

Good Post

Sadly, Democrats support Hamas who is working with Iran. God help us all as due to Biden' open border policy the US is susceptible to terror attacks inside our borders. it amazes me anyone would defend beheading innocent people, raping women (Democrats say they care about women, but do they), killing and kidnapping innocent children, grandmothers and teenagers.

But hey, show us your true colors. I hope and pray for all the innocent, but Hamas's actions called for an all out war to to take over Gaza and kill all Gaza leaders. Iran is complicit, time to destroy their nuclear capabilities, Israel, US and other allies need to unite and declare war on Iran.

Can you imagine how Iran wil use. nuclear weapons to take the world hostage, it is their M.O.

[Luvnit2]

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/hamas-attack-israel-war

40 Babies massacred, just sick.

Israel soldiers said to discover unspeakable horrors in community attacked by Hamas

Israeli soldiers shared details of unimaginable atrocities committed in a community where dozens of victims, including about 40 babies, were massacred by Hamas terrorists.

Israel's rescue service said 200 Israelis were found dead in Kfar Aza, i24 News reported.

Reporters with i24 News toured the "scene of devastation" in the community of about 700, where soldiers worked to remove bodies of victims who were brutally murdered in their homes. Some soldiers said they found babies with their heads cut off, according to i24 News.

"The community’s cars, parked outside, were completely torched. And it was just a small part of the destruction, with no exact number yet of how many people were murdered, as bodies are still being collected and removed from the homes," the report said.

More than 70 terrorists invaded the community and butchered residents, leaving naught but a "smell of death" behind, i24 News reported.

“It’s not a war, it’s not a battlefield. You see the babies, the mother, the father, in their bedrooms, in their protection rooms, and how the terrorists killed them,” IDF Major General Itai Veruv said. “It’s a massacre.”

[*michaelsean*]

(10-10-2023, 11:56 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/hamas-attack-israel-war

40 Babies massacred, just sick.

Israel soldiers said to discover unspeakable horrors in community attacked by Hamas

Israeli soldiers shared details of unimaginable atrocities committed in a community where dozens of victims, including about 40 babies, were massacred by Hamas terrorists.

Israel's rescue service said 200 Israelis were found dead in Kfar Aza, i24 News reported.

Reporters with i24 News toured the "scene of devastation" in the community of about 700, where soldiers worked to remove bodies of victims who were brutally murdered in their homes. Some soldiers said they found babies with their heads cut off, according to i24 News.

"The community’s cars, parked outside, were completely torched. And it was just a small part of the destruction, with no exact number yet of how many people were murdered, as bodies are still being collected and removed from the homes," the report said.

More than 70 terrorists invaded the community and butchered residents, leaving naught but a "smell of death" behind, i24 News reported.

“It’s not a war, it’s not a battlefield. You see the babies, the mother, the father, in their bedrooms, in their protection rooms, and how the terrorists killed them,” IDF Major General Itai Veruv said. “It’s a massacre.”

This stuff cannot have been a part of the plan.  The original attack was a horrendous atrocity, but you start adding babies, and nobody but the extreme is going to support you.

[Millhouse]

(10-10-2023, 12:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: This stuff cannot have been a part of the plan.  The original attack was a horrendous atrocity, but you start adding babies, and nobody but the extreme is going to support you.

These are Islamic jihadist terrorists. This isn't about making war on Israel's military and police force, it's about annihilation of all Israelites.

[*pally*]

(10-10-2023, 11:05 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Good Post

Sadly, Democrats support Hamas who is working with Iran. God help us all as due to Biden' open border policy the US is susceptible to terror attacks inside our borders. it amazes me anyone would defend beheading innocent people, raping women (Democrats say they care about women, but do they), killing and kidnapping innocent children, grandmothers and teenagers.

But hey, show us your true colors. I hope and pray for all the innocent, but Hamas's actions called for an all out war to to take over Gaza and kill all Gaza leaders. Iran is complicit, time to destroy their nuclear capabilities, Israel, US and other allies need to unite and declare war on Iran.

Can you imagine how Iran wil use. nuclear weapons to take the world hostage, it is their M.O.

For goodness sake...what absolute nonsense.  Democrats do not support Hamas or any other terrorist organization.   Democrats do not support attacks on women and children and no one is defending that.  Even those who advocate for the Palestinians don't condone this attack.  It only hurts their cause.

You must live in a different world because these statements aren't even close to being realistic. It really is very sad.  



 We do not have open borders. If we did we could save a helluva lot of money on border protections.  And I'll remind you the last terrorist attack by foreign nationals inside the US was done by people here legally. 

[Mickeypoo]

(10-10-2023, 01:46 PM)pally Wrote: For goodness sake...what absolute nonsense.  Democrats do not support Hamas or any other terrorist organization.   Democrats do not support attacks on women and children and no one is defending that.  Even those who advocate for the Palestinians don't condone this attack.  It only hurts their cause.

You must live in a different world because these statements aren't even close to being realistic. It really is very sad.  



 We do not have open borders. If we did we could save a helluva lot of money on border protections.  And I'll remind you the last terrorist attack by foreign nationals inside the US was done by people here legally. 

Millions entering illegally = open borders.  This is not rocket science.

[Belsnickel]

(10-10-2023, 10:41 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Mowing down innocent people at a concert in the desert is terrorism regardless how you look at it. Shooting innocent kids trying to leave the concert and remove themselves from the situation is also terrorism. They were fleeing and not fighting. There is no justification.

I don't disagree. I am speaking more in generalities and merely pointing out the journalistic standards. Anyone who is in favor of neutral reporting should be supportive of word choices that are non-judgmental.