High school locker rooms and transgender

[StLucieBengal]

(11-01-2015, 09:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: Gays?

My daughter has multiple gay friends.  They take gym together.  Is that better?  Worse?

YOU made the claim...and YOU have produced ZERO to back it up.

So either do it or stop trying to use your own fevered fears and fantasies to make a point.

Not talking about gays. Talking about those who have opposite anatomy. Your anatomy dictates where you change clothing. A unisex arrangement seemed the most logical solution..... But it seems logic is out the window when it comes to the courts.

[*bfine32*]

(11-01-2015, 08:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: but I honestly do not know what compels people to be so awful to other human beings.

BmorePat87 Wrote:No, I said shitty.

[GMDino]

(11-01-2015, 09:38 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Not talking about gays.    Talking about those who have opposite anatomy.   Your anatomy dictates where you change clothing.   A unisex arrangement seemed the most logical solution..... But it seems logic is out the window when it comes to the courts.

You change what you "mean" a lot.

So give an example...of something you "mean".

*I* brought up gay people.  Do you think have a gay man in a male locker room is better or worse than an transgender person in the opposite locker room?  What kind of "shenanigans" do you think they will be up to?

[StLucieBengal]

(11-01-2015, 09:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: You change what you "mean" a lot.

So give an example...of something you "mean".

*I* brought up gay people.  Do you think have a gay man in a male locker room is better or worse than an transgender person in the opposite locker room?  What kind of "shenanigans" do you think they will be up to?

A gay man belongs In the men's room. A she/he does not belong in the men's room.

A gay woman belongs in the women's room. A he/she does not belong in the men's room.

Since "gender identity" is a fluid thing. You can only default to what parts you have... The real question is why anyone is afraid of unisex spaces for them. Then they can change gender while in there if they choose.

[BmorePat87]

(11-01-2015, 09:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes I do not swear.   I don't feel the need to express myself with foul language.   I have self control.  

Racism is worse than the word "shitty". 

S

Quote:uicide rates are high with people who have mental disorders.    I guess that explains the trannys.   

and dentists.

Quote:Not sure why you are Bringing in black people or Muslims into this convo.    This is a thread about trannys and where boys and girls should be changing their clothes.   

You said you're not a crappy person. I was citing evidence that contradicts your claim.

Quote:And I do treat them as human beings .... I make fun of everyone.   If it's funny I laugh...   Idc what group it is about .... I have an equal opportunity  laugh.    

Repeatedly using a slur to describe a whole group is dehumanizing. 

Quote:I tried to not say ***** but you get equally upset when I say he or she ....  Or when I say transexual.    So what does it matter if I say ***** .... If you are just going to get the same level of upset.    I can't be bothered when you guys change the acceptable words every few weeks.   

No, you're not. You're using it because the website doesn't block it. Your argument is like saying "I'm going to call black people the N-word because you get mad when I call them negroes". 

Quote:I know you tossed in blacks or Muslims in this post to try and get others to pile on .... Because you know most here know the acceptable word list is always changing and it's ridiculous.    

I went over this. I was citing evidence that showed why you claim was false. 

Quote:For someone who has all this sympathy and empathy for others you sure lack that when it comes to anyone who doesn't believe lock stock in everything that you believe.    So maybe your not so sympathic or emphathetic.

My belief that you shouldn't use slurs to insult whole groups of people? Yea... I'm lacking sympathy for racism, transphobia, and homophobia. 

[Belsnickel]

(11-01-2015, 08:26 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Because mixed sexes do not belong crammed together in these locations. It's inappropriate on numerous levels for them to be changing anoungst each other.

You are saying it is inappropriate but you are not giving any actual reasoning for it. I am trying to determine the reason you feel it is inappropriate. The reason why can help me understand why you feel someone that identifies as a particular gender should not be allowed in a restroom for that gender. Right now all I have got from you on ot is "because it's wrong" and some claims of violence that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

(11-01-2015, 09:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Yes I do not swear. I don't feel the need to express myself with foul language. I have self control.

No, you don't have self control. Your use of offensive language to demean entire populations (which is also foul language) of people after being told your language is offensive shows that. The language you use to describe groups of people is considered worse than the traditional swear words we are all familiar with in today's society. So you have no moral high ground. Using these phrases and feigning confusion over the issue after having it repeatedly explained to you is immoral. It is not loving your neighbor as yourself.

[*bfine32*]

Who "whined" and got me....eer I mean St. Lucie banned?

[fredtoast]

(11-01-2015, 11:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who "whined" and got me....eer I mean St. Lucie banned?

I don't know, but there was some guy who just started a thread where he was bawling about how everyone here had been so mean lately.

Probably that guy.

[GMDino]

(11-01-2015, 11:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who "whined" and got me....eer I mean St. Lucie banned?

(11-02-2015, 04:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know, but there was some guy who just started a thread where he was bawling about how everyone here had been so mean lately.

Probably that guy.

[*bfine32*]

(11-02-2015, 04:04 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know, but there was some guy who just started a thread where he was bawling about how everyone here had been so mean lately.

Probably that guy.

Yes. Because there are those that need to talk big on message board to demonstrate their toughness.

[*PhilHos*]

(11-01-2015, 11:02 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You are saying it is inappropriate but you are not giving any actual reasoning for it. I am trying to determine the reason you feel it is inappropriate. The reason why can help me understand why you feel someone that identifies as a particular gender should not be allowed in a restroom for that gender. Right now all I have got from you on ot is "because it's wrong" and some claims of violence that have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Since, Lucie's no longer here allow me to respond on his behalf even though I have no idea where he was coming from or what he's said in this thread (haven't read anything but the last page). I don't know if you have any kids, but let's say you have a child under the age of 10 who has no idea what sex is nor has any sexual thoughts whatsoever. Would you let this child be completely naked around strangers his or her age that aren't family?

[Belsnickel]

(11-02-2015, 12:56 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Since, Lucie's no longer here allow me to respond on his behalf even though I have no idea where he was coming from or what he's said in this thread (haven't read anything but the last page). I don't know if you have any kids, but let's say you have a child under the age of 10 who has no idea what sex is nor has any sexual thoughts whatsoever. Would you let this child be completely naked around strangers his or her age that aren't family?

I'm not able to give a clear answer on that. There are far too many variables running through my head, and also because of the hypothetical (don't have kids, likely never will because I'm too poor) being something I've never really considered.

[Rotobeast]

This is for the people that feel that a boy that identifies as a girl is to be in the girls locker room.....

Are you ok with a 6 month psychological evaluation period to determine that it is legit ?
I am VERY uncomfortable with taking a teen's word for it.
I am all for a person's rights to be comfortable (transsexual in this case), but I think a proper evaluation would go a long way in assuring the comfort of others that could be impacted.

And... to revisit a previous interjection....

How do we handle gender-fluid peoples ?
I cannot fathom bouncing back and forth, day to day.
:snark:

[*bfine32*]

(11-02-2015, 12:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not able to give a clear answer on that. There are far too many variables running through my head, and also because of the hypothetical (don't have kids, likely never will because I'm too poor) being something I've never really considered.

Perhaps that could be the source of your lack of "understanding". There is a built in "paternal" instinct that motivates one to protect their young. I was never blessed with a daughter; however, if I had I would not be happy with someone with a penis using her bathroom at school, regardless of a history of attacks or lack thereof.  

[*PhilHos*]

(11-02-2015, 12:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm not able to give a clear answer on that. There are far too many variables running through my head, and also because of the hypothetical (don't have kids, likely never will because I'm too poor) being something I've never really considered.

Fair enough, but, IMO, if it's inappropriate for boys tobe naked around girls (and vice versa) and not because of anything sexual but simply because they have different "plumbing" then I don't see how that changes when you're talking about adults, especially adding the sexual factors into the mix.

To be fair, many people don't think children should be naked around ANYONE outside of family (you know what I mean ... I hope). 

[Rotobeast]

(11-02-2015, 01:03 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps that could be the source of your lack of "understanding". There is a built in "paternal" instinct that motivates one to protect their young. I was never blessed with a daughter; however, if I had I would not be happy with someone with a penis using her bathroom at school, regardless of a history of attacks or lack thereof.  

Thoroughly agree, concerning the paternal instinct.
It may be overprotective, but my daughter is my life.
One thing though, do the girls toilet stalls not have doors anymore ?
Perhaps if we insist on more privacy inside of the bathrooms, there would be less issue ?

For the record, I don't have much issue regarding bathrooms, if privacy is available.
The locker rooms and showers are the issue.
I don't want my daughter to have to shower with a biological male, because the state said so.

[Belsnickel]

(11-02-2015, 01:03 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is for the people that feel that a boy that identifies as a girl is to be in the girls locker room.....

Are you ok with a 6 month psychological evaluation period to determine that it is legit ?
I am VERY uncomfortable with taking a teen's word for it.
I am all for a person's rights to be comfortable (transsexual in this case), but I think a proper evaluation would go a long way in assuring the comfort of others that could be impacted.

What is interesting is that this strikes at the core of the issue, to me. People seem to think we are just talking about someone that decides one day to identify as a gender different than their sex and demands accommodations immediately. In every one of these legitimate cases that we are talking about there are likely years worth of behavioral observations that would lead one to see legitimacy with the claim. As an outside observer, we do not have that to view. Some of these folks may be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria, but my problem with that is the subjectivity with which these things are diagnosed and the availability of professionals to make such a diagnosis. Not to mention the privacy issues involved with medical information.

But anyway, my biggest point is that when we are talking about schools, we are talking about teachers and administrators that would have observed, or would have access to people that have observed, behaviors that would point to the legitimacy of the claim. It absolutely is not something that should be taken lightly, but when you're around these kids on a regular basis you would be able to know better than we can reading an article about it.

[Belsnickel]

(11-02-2015, 01:05 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Fair enough, but, IMO, if it's inappropriate for boys tobe naked around girls (and vice versa) and not because of anything sexual but simply because they have different "plumbing" then I don't see how that changes when you're talking about adults, especially adding the sexual factors into the mix.

To be fair, many people don't think children should be naked around ANYONE outside of family (you know what I mean ... I hope). 

See, I guess that is my issue is that I don't really see any issue outside of the sexual side. Maybe different life experiences make people see it differently, but I've also been someone that has said for years that we are far too prudish as a society.

[Rotobeast]

(11-02-2015, 01:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What is interesting is that this strikes at the core of the issue, to me. People seem to think we are just talking about someone that decides one day to identify as a gender different than their sex and demands accommodations immediately. In every one of these legitimate cases that we are talking about there are likely years worth of behavioral observations that would lead one to see legitimacy with the claim. As an outside observer, we do not have that to view. Some of these folks may be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria, but my problem with that is the subjectivity with which these things are diagnosed and the availability of professionals to make such a diagnosis. Not to mention the privacy issues involved with medical information.

But anyway, my biggest point is that when we are talking about schools, we are talking about teachers and administrators that would have observed, or would have access to people that have observed, behaviors that would point to the legitimacy of the claim. It absolutely is not something that should be taken lightly, but when you're around these kids on a regular basis you would be able to know better than we can reading an article about it.

I understand and agree with your assessment.
However, considering we live in a litigious society, we know that schools and parents will need to cover their posterior.
That is why this is such a difficult issue and I don't feel that there is any perfect solution.
People deserve to know that their children are free from things that may put them in distress, but HIPAA would prevent any documentation.
Also, the person that has the gender dysphoria deserves that respect and privacy.
That is the pickle (cheap pun intended).

As I've stated before, I think the only solution is private shower and changing stalls.
Also a school rule needs to be instituted that no person shall be nude in front of another, infraction resulting in suspension.
It is the only way that I can see around this situation.

[*bfine32*]

(11-02-2015, 01:17 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: What is interesting is that this strikes at the core of the issue, to me. People seem to think we are just talking about someone that decides one day to identify as a gender different than their sex and demands accommodations immediately. In every one of these legitimate cases that we are talking about there are likely years worth of behavioral observations that would lead one to see legitimacy with the claim. As an outside observer, we do not have that to view. Some of these folks may be diagnosed as having gender dysphoria, but my problem with that is the subjectivity with which these things are diagnosed and the availability of professionals to make such a diagnosis. Not to mention the privacy issues involved with medical information.

But anyway, my biggest point is that when we are talking about schools, we are talking about teachers and administrators that would have observed, or would have access to people that have observed, behaviors that would point to the legitimacy of the claim. It absolutely is not something that should be taken lightly, but when you're around these kids on a regular basis you would be able to know better than we can reading an article about it.

..and in the article I cited the school decided the best answer was a unisex bathroom, but the feds stepped in and said that wasn't good enough. So it seems their decision would go against your thoughts here.