ICE crackdown forcing some families to self deport

[StLucieBengal]

http://www.dailywire.com/news/18413/ice-crackdown-scaring-some-families-self-deport-joseph-curl

Everyone made fun of Romney when he mentioned this would happen by just enforcing the current laws. I am no Romney supporter but he was right in this instance. Deserves his due.

Quote:ICE Crackdown Scaring Some Families To 'Self-Deport' Back To Mexico

July 10, 2017

Getty Images
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney was derided for his contention that illegal aliens would "self-deport" if the federal government cracked down on companies that hire them, expressly against the law. If they can't find work, they'll leave, Romney said.

To critics, that was laughable. In fact, in a 2012 debate, the audience actually laughed when Romney said the words.

But, guess what? It works. Sort of.

President Donald Trump has ordered the federal government to crack down on illegal aliens, and agents of the Immigration and Custom Enforcement agency have been doing what they're supposed to do — enforce the law.

That has prompted some families to leave the U.S. and return to Mexico, reports The Pueblo Chieftain.

The paper says a February memorandum ordered ICE agents "to detain any undocumented person they encountered — not just those with a criminal history or those in jails, the previous policy."

That ramped-up enforcement has reportedly led to 14 people in the Pueblo area being arrested by ICE agents this year.

One of those people — 49-year-old Benito Rubio — died in a Denver hospital from undetermined causes while in federal custody after being arrested Feb. 28 in Pueblo.

Sources report that some undocumented families have left the area for Mexico rather than run the risk of having a parent arrested or even sentenced to prison for immigration violations.

Rubio, for example, was facing felony charges from repeat immigration violations and was likely to be sentenced to prison before being deported, according to his family.

The danger of arrest is also being felt in the number of longtime local people who offer to pick fruits and vegetables in Southern Colorado.

Michael Hirakata, whose family has grown cantaloupe, watermelon and pumpkins in the Rocky Ford area since 1927, said he has applied for 60 federal H2A worker visas this year. The documents allow workers to stay here from July to October and work on Hirakata's farm.

"Fewer and fewer local people have been taking part in the (farm) labor pool anymore," Hirakata said Friday.

Federal law makes it a crime for an employer to hire an undocumented worker. But the law has been hardly enforced for years, allowing companies to hire illegal aliens without any consequence.

Still, if illegal aliens know that they might — just might — be picked up and deported, that may change the equation enough to spur them to go home.

So far, it seems to be working.

[ballsofsteel]

" I am no Romney supporter"

Why not? Would it be because he called Trump a liar, cheat and a con man? Then, when Trump got elected ran to him with his tail between his legs sucking up to get a piece of the action. Is this why you don't support him?

[Vlad]

(07-11-2017, 06:44 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: " I am no Romney supporter"

Why not? Would it be because he called Trump a liar, cheat and a con man? Then, when Trump got elected ran to him with his tail between his legs sucking up to get a piece of the action. Is this why you don't support him?

That would be a good reason.

Gotcha question fail.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 06:44 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: " I am no Romney supporter"

Why not? Would it be because he called Trump a liar, cheat and a con man? Then, when Trump got elected ran to him with his tail between his legs sucking up to get a piece of the action. Is this why you don't support him?

Romney is a progressive and I do not support progressives.

[*michaelsean*]

I say crackdown on the employers. Quit handing out H2As to people who just want skilled labor for cheaper, and give them out so that employers can hire unskilled labor from countries south of the border if they are indeed having a difficult time filling job vacancies at a decent wage. If you are offering jobs at minimum wage and nobody is taking, then the market says you raise the wages, but there is a point where you can't afford to pay a certain wage, and that's where the H2As should come in.

[Belsnickel]

(07-11-2017, 10:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I say crackdown on the employers. Quit handing out H2As to people who just want skilled labor for cheaper, and give them out so that employers can hire unskilled labor from countries south of the border if they are indeed having a difficult time filling job vacancies at a decent wage. If you are offering jobs at minimum wage and nobody is taking, then the market says you raise the wages, but there is a point where you can't afford to pay a certain wage, and that's where the H2As should come in.

Really what we need to do in this country is establish a good job training program. There are some industries that are at full-employment (though there is some disagreement on this because of wage stagnation) which means that they can't find people to work the jobs they need to have filled. But, we all know that the country as a whole is not a full-employment, and I doubt there are many regions that are, if any. This comes from having people looking for jobs that aren't qualified for them. Having a job training program supported by the government is one area of social policy that our country is way behind in, and we really need to find a solution for that. Otherwise, the reliance on those VISAs is needed.

Just my two cents, and sorry if this derails the thread.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 10:46 AM)michaelsean Wrote: I say crackdown on the employers. Quit handing out H2As to people who just want skilled labor for cheaper, and give them out so that employers can hire unskilled labor from countries south of the border if they are indeed having a difficult time filling job vacancies at a decent wage. If you are offering jobs at minimum wage and nobody is taking, then the market says you raise the wages, but there is a point where you can't afford to pay a certain wage, and that's where the H2As should come in.

(07-11-2017, 10:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Really what we need to do in this country is establish a good job training program. There are some industries that are at full-employment (though there is some disagreement on this because of wage stagnation) which means that they can't find people to work the jobs they need to have filled. But, we all know that the country as a whole is not a full-employment, and I doubt there are many regions that are, if any. This comes from having people looking for jobs that aren't qualified for them. Having a job training program supported by the government is one area of social policy that our country is way behind in, and we really need to find a solution for that. Otherwise, the reliance on those VISAs is needed.

Just my two cents, and sorry if this derails the thread.

We need a bit of both.

Severely restricting immigration is a good start. Then we can get the citizens who are on benefits here to take these unskilled jobs. If they do t they need to be forced off all benefit programs.

And employers need to be hammered.

[Benton]

That's what I've been claiming for a while now.

We don't need more laws. We don't need to increase debt building a wall that isn't going to work.

You want to "fix" immigration? Start funding agencies so they become operational again, let them enforce current laws prohibiting employers from hiring undocumented workers and you'll see the problem fixed in a few years. All the propaganda and misinformation aside, the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens are just looking for work; American companies don't want laws enforced because they're looking for cheap labor.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 01:30 PM)Benton Wrote: That's what I've been claiming for a while now.

We don't need more laws. We don't need to increase debt building a wall that isn't going to work.

You want to "fix" immigration? Start funding agencies so they become operational again, let them enforce current laws prohibiting employers from hiring undocumented workers and you'll see the problem fixed in a few years. All the propaganda and misinformation aside, the overwhelming majority of illegal aliens are just looking for work; American companies don't want laws enforced because they're looking for cheap labor.

We also need an Australian style point system to weed out the immigrants who do not help our country.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 01:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We also need an Australian style point system to weed out the immigrants who do not help our country.

How is help our country defined?  As long as someone is not a drain, I'm good.  If you come here legally and get a job that's all I ask.  

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 01:52 PM)michaelsean Wrote: How is help our country defined?  As long as someone is not a drain, I'm good.  If you come here legally and get a job that's all I ask.  

That is what the Australian point system does.... i Will find a link with more detail.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(07-11-2017, 10:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Really what we need to do in this country is establish a good job training program. There are some industries that are at full-employment (though there is some disagreement on this because of wage stagnation) which means that they can't find people to work the jobs they need to have filled. But, we all know that the country as a whole is not a full-employment, and I doubt there are many regions that are, if any. This comes from having people looking for jobs that aren't qualified for them. Having a job training program supported by the government is one area of social policy that our country is way behind in, and we really need to find a solution for that. Otherwise, the reliance on those VISAs is needed.

Just my two cents, and sorry if this derails the thread.

A big problem with that is how now all through middle and highschool, kids are told over and over that they need to go to college, that college is the only way to be successful, etc.

Then they go to college, get 40k in debt, and a degree in something they can't find a job in (except maybe for teaching other people to get that degree... talk about a useless cycle).

Meanwhile if they hadn't been brainwashed into thinking that college was really the only choice they had, they could have gone to a trade school for like 1-2 years and become a welder, mechanic, plumber, electrician, etc. Jobs that pay well, are in high demand, and last I knew was primarily older folks who were nearing retirement.

- - - - - -
The other problem is it seems less employers are allowing for on-the-job training. They want entry level people to have a couple years of experience already.

[Benton]

(07-11-2017, 01:44 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: We also need an Australian style point system to weed out the immigrants who do not help our country.

(07-11-2017, 01:52 PM)michaelsean Wrote: How is help our country defined?  As long as someone is not a drain, I'm good.  If you come here legally and get a job that's all I ask.  

The intent is good, I just don't know how well the practical application goes for the U.S. Ultimately, I think it's an issue that corrects itself for those legally going through the steps.

Lucie may be a little better versed in what Australia does, but I think what he's referring to is Australia's system that ranks individuals based on government criteria. There's more info at the link below, but ultimately what they want is young, skilled workers who already have a job offer. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/what-is-australia-points-based-immigration-system-brexit

I've got two issues with it. One, our country is more diverse than Australia. The need in Kentucky for migrant workers is largely agricultural; visa labor in a state with more tech-based jobs is going to be very different. There's not a good one-size fits all approach that doesn't make it difficult on other states.

 The other issue that ultimately the points system can be used as a way to prohibit any immigration. If one party decides it doesn't like X population because they typically vote for the other side, then they can gerrymander the points. Looking for cheap labor? Water down the points system and flood the country with hungry people.

I think the system in place will work if we actually fund it and enforce laws. The market can decide what workers stay based on what skills they have. Immigrating from England with a philosophy degree? Good luck with that, I'll wave as your plane to London takes off in 6 months. Coming here from Guatemala with 10 years experience operating a bull dozer? I've got a half dozen Chamber of Commerce members that will pay your moving expenses. And they don't care what language you speak, as long as you can push dirt the right direction.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 03:56 PM)Benton Wrote: The intent is good, I just don't know how well the practical application goes for the U.S. Ultimately, I think it's an issue that corrects itself for those legally going through the steps.

Lucie may be a little better versed in what Australia does, but I think what he's referring to is Australia's system that ranks individuals based on government criteria. There's more info at the link below, but ultimately what they want is young, skilled workers who already have a job offer. 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/01/what-is-australia-points-based-immigration-system-brexit

I've got two issues with it. One, our country is more diverse than Australia. The need in Kentucky for migrant workers is largely agricultural; visa labor in a state with more tech-based jobs is going to be very different. There's not a good one-size fits all approach that doesn't make it difficult on other states.

 The other issue that ultimately the points system can be used as a way to prohibit any immigration. If one party decides it doesn't like X population because they typically vote for the other side, then they can gerrymander the points. Looking for cheap labor? Water down the points system and flood the country with hungry people.

I think the system in place will work if we actually fund it and enforce laws. The market can decide what workers stay based on what skills they have. Immigrating from England with a philosophy degree? Good luck with that, I'll wave as your plane to London takes off in 6 months. Coming here from Guatemala with 10 years experience operating a bull dozer? I've got a half dozen Chamber of Commerce members that will pay your moving expenses. And they don't care what language you speak, as long as you can push dirt the right direction.

I never want to base our immigration on skills and such.  i want the guy who just wants a shot.  That's what we are.  Maybe someone comes here to pick fruit, saves money, and buys a  farm of his own.  

[Benton]

(07-11-2017, 04:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I never want to base our immigration on skills and such.  i want the guy who just wants a shot.  That's what we are.  Maybe someone comes here to pick fruit, saves money, and buys a  farm of his own.  

Agreed.

And that's what makes our current system (if it was staffed) a good one. If you are willing to come here and put in the work, it doesn't matter if you're a physicist or a landscaper. If you're hard working, obey the law and a little lucky, you can make a good life here.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-11-2017, 04:33 PM)Benton Wrote: Agreed.

And that's what makes our current system (if it was staffed) a good one. If you are willing to come here and put in the work, it doesn't matter if you're a physicist or a landscaper. If you're hard working, obey the law and a little lucky, you can make a good life here.

Yes.  I may have an over-idealized vision of immigration, but I see it like a guy comes here, and he will take whatever work he can get.  He packs his lunch and doesn't waste his money.  Maybe he starts a business eventually.  He marries and they have kids, and you better believe these kids are going to school, and they are going to perform, and they become our DRs, lawyers, engineers etc.,  and they are Americans not someone we needed to import.

But I truly believe you always need this new blood that's hungry. Maybe literally, maybe figuratively, maybe both.   They are the future entrepreneurs.  I complain about my job and someone says, start your own business, and I'm like, I don't know how to run a business.  They don't either, and they don't care.  They were making $10 a day at home, so what do they have to lose?  Janis would say they are free.  

[Benton]

(07-11-2017, 04:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Yes.  I may have an over-idealized vision of immigration, but I see it like a guy comes here, and he will take whatever work he can get.  He packs his lunch and doesn't waste his money.  Maybe he starts a business eventually.  He marries and they have kids, and you better believe these kids are going to school, and they are going to perform, and they become our DRs, lawyers, engineers etc.,  and they are Americans not someone we needed to import.

But I truly believe you always need this new blood that's hungry. Maybe literally, maybe figuratively, maybe both.   They are the future entrepreneurs.  I complain about my job and someone says, start your own business, and I'm like, I don't know how to run a business.  They don't either, and they don't care.  They were making $10 a day at home, so what do they have to lose?  Janis would say they are free.  

My great grandfather came here from Germany after WW I. He had nothing of value (like a lot of Germans following the war), no skills and spoke only German, moving to a rural part of Illinois in a country not too found of Germans at the time. He worked hard, saved money, bought an empty building and turned it into a grocery store. He had a son and daughter, the son joined the Navy, served for four years and opened his own business. His daughter (my mom) was the first in the family to go to college. Etc., etc. 

I guess that's why I get a little frustrated with issues like the travel ban or 'build the wall.' I don't see a Middle Eastern fleeing from violence in his country with no marketable skills and not proficient in English as any different than Germans and others who fled here after WW I & II. Same with those coming from South America where there may not be fighting, but there's high poverty.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 04:03 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I never want to base our immigration on skills and such.  i want the guy who just wants a shot.  That's what we are.  Maybe someone comes here to pick fruit, saves money, and buys a  farm of his own.  

I want skilled workers who bring something to the table. I do not want the uneducated third worlders who are just going to take a job from someone who is currently living off the government. If we accept those people then we can not force people off welfare and services.

we are America. We only want the best.

[StLucieBengal]

(07-11-2017, 05:54 PM)Benton Wrote: My great grandfather came here from Germany after WW I. He had nothing of value (like a lot of Germans following the war), no skills and spoke only German, moving to a rural part of Illinois in a country not too found of Germans at the time. He worked hard, saved money, bought an empty building and turned it into a grocery store. He had a son and daughter, the son joined the Navy, served for four years and opened his own business. His daughter (my mom) was the first in the family to go to college. Etc., etc. 

I guess that's why I get a little frustrated with issues like the travel ban or 'build the wall.' I don't see a Middle Eastern fleeing from violence in his country with no marketable skills and not proficient in English as any different than Germans and others who fled here after WW I & II. Same with those coming from South America where there may not be fighting, but there's high poverty.

Back then there was no social safety nets or handouts. If you want to dissolve all safety nets and benefits then sure we can let people come and if they make it they make it.... if they starve they starve.

Back then you could come to America and if you didn't work you starved.

[Benton]

(07-11-2017, 06:02 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Back then there was no social safety nets or handouts.   If you want to dissolve all safety nets and benefits then sure we can let people come and if they make it they make it....   if they starve they starve.  

Back then you could come to America and if you didn't work you starved.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/green-card-holders-qualify-obamacare-not-medicare-article-1.1728340

Quote:Permanent residents qualify for Medicare (a federal health insurance program) if they have worked in the United States for a total of 40 quarters — 10 years. U.S. citizens and lawful permanent residents at least age 65, who have been here five years, may buy into Medicare if they don’t have the work history. 

It's the same with a lot of the safety net programs, there's typically work or time requirements. Immigrant (legal or illegal) impact on safety net programs is minuscule and nothing when compared to the taxes paid and income generated. If immigration services are working correctly and immigrants are checked up on to make sure they're holding down jobs, paying taxes, etc., then it's not really an issue if those same citizens eventually have to use some of the same safety net they've already been paying for.

If a guy comes here from Mexico, starts a catering business, becomes a legal citizen, pays taxes for 20 years and then has to go on food stamps for a couple months because his business hits a speed bump, I've got no issue with that. Same as I don't have any issue with an American born construction worker having to draw a couple months unemployment when he inevitably gets laid off in the winter — he was already paying into that system, it's his tax money he's getting back.