Is The United States In Trouble?

[GMDino]

(06-22-2023, 10:07 PM)BFritz21 Wrote:

You're taking it to the extreme.

I'm saying that kids shouldn't be introduced to this kind of delusional ideology at all.

I'm taking it to the most basic thing taught to children by religious people.

We indoctrinate them as children and then they grow up to judge people who are not like them.  Much more harmful than seeing a drag queen read a book.

[BFritz21]

(06-22-2023, 10:09 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I guess it depends on what you mean by "impacts them."  I'm not sure if you think tolerating/accepting/celebrating LGBTQ folks is bad, or if you actually think that you'd be gay today if a teacher subjected you to this stuff.



Unless their parents want, I assume.

Why do kids need to be introduced to the ideology at that age in the first place?

(06-22-2023, 10:23 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'm taking it to the most basic thing taught to children by religious people.

We indoctrinate them as children and then they grow up to judge people who are not like them.  Much more harmful than seeing a drag queen read a book.

I don't know any teachers that teach little kids in grade schools that they're going to hell if they don't do what they're told.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the latest pope made the official Church teaching that there is no hell.

I don't know anyone that indoctrinates children to judge anyone they don't like or who are not like them

[*Nately120*]

(06-22-2023, 10:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Why do kids need to be introduced to the ideology at that age in the first place?

Parents can tell tell their kids whatever they want to whenever they want to.  Even if you wanted to legislate what parents were allowed to expose their kids to, there is no way this country can enforce it.

(06-22-2023, 10:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don't know anyone that indoctrinates children to judge anyone they don't like or who are not like them

I'd wager a lot of parents do that by accident if not on purpose.  There are photos of kids in KKK robes out there if you want a more on-point example. 

[BFritz21]

(06-22-2023, 10:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Parents can tell tell their kids whatever they want to whenever they want to.  Even if you wanted to legislate what parents were allowed to expose their kids to, there is no way this country can enforce it.

You're saying a man is a woman if he identifies as a woman, but was is a woman? Just a word with no meaning?

[*Nately120*]

(06-22-2023, 10:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're saying a man is a woman if he identifies as a woman, but was is a woman? Just a word with no meaning?

I'm saying that you can't tell parents what to teach their kids.  My views on anything in this case are irrelevant.  Neither you nor I nor whichever branch of our government is in power at the given moment can tell parents what sort of reality they can and can't shape for their own kids.

[*pally*]

(06-22-2023, 08:30 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Do those countries have illegal immigrants that cost them at least 150.7 BILLION DOLLARS a year?

Most European countries like Greece and Turkey have a far more serious refugee problem and per capita costs far more for these much smaller entities

Can you imagine what would happen to the US economy without the labor of undocumented workers? They are key to the agricultural workforce.

Was this thread just another way to bash transgendered persons?

[Dill]

(06-22-2023, 02:14 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: The average empire lasts 250 years.

They normally collapse due to things like problems within the empire to become unstable and then it's usually invaded by outside forces.

I share your concern that things are not going well with the nation. It's a worthy topic.

Just curious where you got this information. 

I don't see how anyone could create such an "average" from the historical record we have so far. Does average mean 'mode" or "mean" here?

Rome was founded as a Republic in the 5th century BCE and became an effective dictatorship/empire by the 1st century BCE. It was divided at the end of the 4th century CE, and while the Western portion "fell" in the 5th century, the Eastern endured until 1453. That's about a thousand years of continuous administration, some 800 as an "empire." 

The Tamil Pandyan Empire was arguably much longer. And the Ottomans stretch from the 13th century to WWI.  
 
I'm wondering how "empires" are defined and counted. If enough were effectively defined and averaged to a mean of 250 years, that wouldn't make the 250th year of any empire especially concerning, would it? 

Much better to look at the kind of thing which undermines great nations. I know that is what you are asking about here. And there may be some good answers to this question. We could very well be in trouble, but not because there is some natural 250 year cycle, the end of which we are nearing.
 

[CJD]

Every time this topic comes up, my immediate reaction is something along the lines of, "No, I don't think America is in that much trouble. At least not at the scale of nationwide collapse that is associated with the fall of an empire. I mean, we aren't really an empire to begin with, but even if we were the whole 250 year thing is, at best, taken out of context and, at worst, completely made up to create panic since America is nearing 250 years old. It's true that there is a small contingent of fascist, anti intellectuals that have gained some semblance of power but they're extraordinarily unpopular outside of their insular bubble and I don't think they'll ever grow beyond an extreme minority... oh... oh you're asking because of trans people again... sigh...
No. I don't think trans people's existence will spell the end of America..."

[BigPapaKain]

America is in trouble, but not in the way OP thinks or from the people OP believes are to blame.

[*Synric*]

(06-22-2023, 10:54 PM)pally Wrote: Most European countries like Greece and Turkey have a far more serious refugee problem and per capita costs far more for these much smaller entities

Can you imagine what would happen to the US economy without the labor of undocumented workers?  They are key to the agricultural workforce.

Was this thread just another way to bash transgendered persons?

Yea they can employ the 6 million unemployed documented workers.

[*pally*]

(06-23-2023, 08:32 AM)Synric Wrote: Yea they can employ the 6 million unemployed documented workers.

Those jobs exist today.  There are an estimated 10 million open jobs in the US right now.  And immigrants work in meat packing plants and agriculture because documented workers don't want those jobs or those good loyal Republican farmers and meat packing employers don't want to follow safety laws or pay a decent wage.

[*Synric*]

(06-23-2023, 08:57 AM)pally Wrote: Those jobs exist today.  There are an estimated 10 million open jobs in the US right now.  And immigrants work in meat packing plants and agriculture because documented workers don't want those jobs or those good loyal Republican farmers and meat packing employers don't want to follow safety laws or pay a decent wage.

What happens when a business is caught employeeing undocumented workers? They are fined because it is illegal. Trying to justify breaking the law doesnt change the fact it is against the law. 

[*Nately120*]

(06-23-2023, 09:31 AM)Synric Wrote: What happens when a business is caught employeeing undocumented workers? They are fined because it is illegal. Trying to justify breaking the law doesnt change the fact it is against the law. 

Being fined for breaking laws that make you money, now that's some system we've got here. 

[BigPapaKain]

(06-23-2023, 09:31 AM)Synric Wrote: What happens when a business is caught employeeing undocumented workers? They are fined because it is illegal. Trying to justify breaking the law doesnt change the fact it is against the law. 

Any crime where the punishment is a fine is only a crime for the working class.

How much is the fine versus the amount of money saved by employing undocumented workers? If there was an actual punishment that affected the bottom line, companies wouldn't do it. Instead it's an expected expense.

[*pally*]

(06-23-2023, 10:15 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Any crime where the punishment is a fine is only a crime for the working class.

How much is the fine versus the amount of money saved by employing undocumented workers? If there was an actual punishment that affected the bottom line, companies wouldn't do it. Instead it's an expected expense.

exactly!

[*Synric*]

(06-23-2023, 10:15 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Any crime where the punishment is a fine is only a crime for the working class.

How much is the fine versus the amount of money saved by employing undocumented workers? If there was an actual punishment that affected the bottom line, companies wouldn't do it. Instead it's an expected expense.

There is Jail Time with the fine but it never gets used because the government has turned into as you suggested a loophole to not having to pay insurance and workers comp for employees while keeping their wages low. Getting an H-2 Temporary Work Permit takes about 30 days. It's fairly easy but that would actually cost the employers money because they would have to pay undocumented workers as regular American Citizens.

This is not a good thing. It just shows everyone that money can buy yourself out of trouble.

[BFritz21]

(06-22-2023, 10:54 PM)pally Wrote: Most European countries like Greece and Turkey have a far more serious refugee problem and per capita costs far more for these much smaller entities

Can you imagine what would happen to the US economy without the labor of undocumented workers?  They are key to the agricultural workforce.

Was this thread just another way to bash transgendered persons?

This was about the struggles the country is facing.

Take your ad hominem attacks and go find out where Fred is these days and post with him.

(06-23-2023, 02:11 AM)Dill Wrote: I share your concern that things are not going well with the nation. It's a worthy topic.

Just curious where you got this information. 

I don't see how anyone could create such an "average" from the historical record we have so far. Does average mean 'mode" or "mean" here?

Rome was founded as a Republic in the 5th century BCE and became an effective dictatorship/empire by the 1st century BCE. It was divided at the end of the 4th century CE, and while the Western portion "fell" in the 5th century, the Eastern endured until 1453. That's about a thousand years of continuous administration, some 800 as an "empire." 

The Tamil Pandyan Empire was arguably much longer. And the Ottomans stretch from the 13th century to WWI.  
 
I'm wondering how "empires" are defined and counted. If enough were effectively defined and averaged to a mean of 250 years, that wouldn't make the 250th year of any empire especially concerning, would it? 

Much better to look at the kind of thing which undermines great nations. I know that is what you are asking about here. And there may be some good answers to this question. We could very well be in trouble, but not because there is some natural 250 year cycle, the end of which we are nearing.
 

I Googled it out of curiosity because I was just wondering how long the way we're operating is sustainable and the results said that the average empire lasts 250 years:

Quote:Studies show that an empire survives, on average, a mere 250 years.

Expanding our resources too far could be a cause because it weakens our core. Allowing record numbers of illegal immigrants to cross the Southern border. Inflation. Crime. Indoctrinating our kids.

(06-23-2023, 04:00 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Every time this topic comes up, my immediate reaction is something along the lines of, "No, I don't think America is in that much trouble. At least not at the scale of nationwide collapse that is associated with the fall of an empire. I mean, we aren't really an empire to begin with, but even if we were the whole 250 year thing is, at best, taken out of context and, at worst, completely made up to create panic since America is nearing 250 years old. It's true that there is a small contingent of fascist, anti intellectuals that have gained some semblance of power but they're extraordinarily unpopular outside of their insular bubble and I don't think they'll ever grow beyond an extreme minority... oh... oh you're asking because of trans people again... sigh...
No. I don't think trans people's existence will spell the end of America..."

With the size of our country, as much aid as we give the rest of the world, our military occupation around the world, our military presence around the world, and various other factors, I think we're definitely an empire.

(06-23-2023, 06:35 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: America is in trouble, but not in the way OP thinks or from the people OP believes are to blame.

Care to expand instead of just making a piss-poor attempt at a personal jab at me?

[Lucidus]

(06-22-2023, 07:57 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Biology is reality and was that way for millions of years until about five minutes ago.

Yes, biology is a reality. However, the sheer amount of variation and diversity in every aspect is biology is astonishing and makes the task of placing things into specific boxes (labels, categories, classifications) incredibly complicated; so you must also be willing to accept that reality.

Quote:You're claiming that there is no such thing as objective reality. 

I never stated that. I asked you what objective method I could use to conclude that you are what you claim to be in terms of gender identity or sexual orientation. Other than taking your word as to what you identify as and who you're attracted to, what other standard could possibly be more applicable? Your mind and internal sense of self are unique to you and only you can accurately determine and describe those things -- unless you think there is an external standard that can decipher your own identity and preferences better than you can?

Quote:If I'm wrong, what is a woman?

An adult human possessing the internal sense of being female.

[BFritz21]

(06-23-2023, 03:42 PM)Lucidus Wrote: An adult human possessing the internal sense of being female.

What is a female?

Furthermore, you think that the terms male and female have no objective reality?

[BigPapaKain]

(06-23-2023, 02:37 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Care to expand instead of just making a piss-poor attempt at a personal jab at me?

Well based on past interactions, no I don't. Because you won't like what I have to say so you'll ignore it except for some random line you think you'll have your gotcha moment on.

I'm done letting insanity run me, and expecting anything out of you during a political discussion is the literal definition of insanity.